Reverse gear not working

[Tony1]

 

I am hoping I might get some advice/info- I went for a cruise this morning with an old work colleague who was visiting, and at first all went well. I cruised forwards a few hundred yards to a winding hole, turned the boat around (which required using reverse gear), and then cruised off in our chosen direction. 

 

I was letting my guest drive, but after a few hundred yards I noticed we were not progressing at the speed I would've expected, given the amount of revs. 

I took over the tiller, tried a bit of throttle, and found I was correct- something must be wrapped around the prop. 

 

On its own that would've been ok, but at this point I also noticed that the prop was not turning at all when set in reverse. 

I pulled over and got down the weed hatch, and pulled out some string and some fabric that was wedged tight around the prop and shaft, and that improved things greatly going forwards, but there was still no turning of the prop when in reverse.

 

Luckily I have gold RCR membership, so my plan is to call them out in the morning and see what they can deduce (and hopefully repair). 

But in the meantime, I wondered if I could I ask the experienced guys here whether anything can be deduced from the behaviour of the gearbox as described (ie forwards ok, but no reverse motion)? 

I think its  PRM120 matched to a canaline 38 engine, and it has an uncommon 'volvo' style coupling setup, so there is no gland that I routinely grease. or pack. 

 

Any advice, info or even recommendations on trustworthy engineers near Anderton would be gratefully appreciated. 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Tony1

[nicknorman]

It’s a mechanical gearbox. I’d check that the gear selector lever is moving over its full travel at the gearbox (put it into reverse, disconnect the cable at the gearbox, and see if you can then move the gearbox lever further).

 

If there is insufficient travel you may be able to increase the total travel by moving the cable to a different hole - either further towards the pivot on the gearbox, or further away from the pivot on the Morse control.

Edited November 28, 2021 by nicknorman

[haggis]

It couldn't be leaves round the prop, could it? Very common at this time of year and best dislodged by putting the engine into neutral when they will drop off and go and find another boat.  Good idea to keep an eye on the water from the prop at this time of the year as it gives an early indication if there is something preventing the water emerging in the usual manner. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by haggis

[Tony1]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It’s a mechanical gearbox. I’d check that the gear selector lever is moving over its full travel at the gearbox (put it into reverse, disconnect the cable at the gearbox, and see if you can then move the gearbox lever further).

 

If there is insufficient travel you may be able to increase the total travel by moving the cable to a different hole - either further towards the pivot on the gearbox, or further away from the pivot on the Morse control.

 

Thanks for this tip Nick, tbh I think I'm going to leave it till the morning before I try this out.

Even with my full-arm length glove on, my hand was stinging with the cold by the time I'd cleared the prop, and its gone even colder now (though not as cold as Scotland, I'll grant you!).

 

If I can get RCR to arrive before lunch I'll suggest this to them, if they can't make it tomorrow I'll try it myself. I think I've seen that cable you mentioned.

Its disappointing as its only six years old, but if its been stressed by trying to run when jammed, maybe that's buggered it?

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, haggis said:

It couldn't be eaves round the prop, could it? Very common at this time of year and best dislodged by putting the engine into neutral when they will drop off and go and find another boat.  Good idea to keep an eye on the water from the prop at this time o the year as it gives an early indication if there is something preventing the water emerging in the usual manner. 

 

In hindsight it was stupid to do a pleasure cruise so soon after a storm- the canal is full of leaves, branches and even small logs, and there was a real risk of damaging the prop.

 

I think it did get a bit clogged in the last hour, as we did lose some oomph, but it wasn't too bad so I took a chance and carried on to the mooring spot.    

You live and learn....

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

I think I've seen that cable you mentioned.

Its disappointing as its only six years old, but if its been stressed by trying to run when jammed, maybe that's buggered it?

 

 

Its possible the clamp on the outer of the cable is lose and moving back and forth when you try to engage reverse gear 

 

[Tony1]

29 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its possible the clamp on the outer of the cable is lose and moving back and forth when you try to engage reverse gear 

 

 

 

Thanks very much- I'll have a look at the cable and clamp in the morning, and see if I can see anything amiss. 

 

To be honest, my main fear in this scenario is that the jammed up prop has somehow terminally damaged the gearbox, or part of it, to the extent that a major and expensive repair or a replacement is needed. 

I really don't want to have to get it to a yard and have it hauled out for a costly repair. 

 

Even turning the boat around is a real struggle without being able to reverse, as I found out this afternoon. 

 

 

[Bee]

Just have a quick look before you get the spanners out to see if the gearbox output flange is actually rotating. if it is then some sort of shaft / coupling / key '/clamp is loose if it isn't then do as nicknorman suggests. Next thing is probably to take the gearbox off and check the drive plate and splined shaft. Next thing is to burst into tears and write a hefty cheque.

[Tony1]

7 minutes ago, Bee said:

Just have a quick look before you get the spanners out to see if the gearbox output flange is actually rotating. if it is then some sort of shaft / coupling / key '/clamp is loose if it isn't then do as nicknorman suggests. Next thing is probably to take the gearbox off and check the drive plate and splined shaft. Next thing is to burst into tears and write a hefty cheque.

 

Its the possibility of the hefty cheque bit that scares me to be honest- I've seen/heard some prices for replacement gearboxes and labour, they seem to start at 2 or 3k and go rapidly upwards. 

The boat's only 6 years old so I wasn't really expecting any serious mechanical issues for a while yet, but boats will be boats....

 

I'm starting to see why people joke about that BOAT acronym - 'Bring Out Another Thousand'.

[Tracy D'arth]

PRM 120 is a good tough gearbox, I would be surprised if it in need of replacement, a new cone clutch is not expensive and easy to fix.

 

Get it running with the boards out and see what is not turning when you put it in gear. Shaft coupling flanges have been known to spin loose, that's why they used to have a keyway and key but many are just clamped now a days.

[Tony1]

11 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

PRM 120 is a good tough gearbox, I would be surprised if it in need of replacement, a new cone clutch is not expensive and easy to fix.

 

Get it running with the boards out and see what is not turning when you put it in gear. Shaft coupling flanges have been known to spin loose, that's why they used to have a keyway and key but many are just clamped now a days.

 

Thanks Tracy, in the morning I'll check the shaft etc actually spins in reverse.

My DIY skills are rubbish so I bought gold RCR membership this year- which I didnt think I was really going to need- so hopefully they'll be able to attend tomorrow and diagnose the problem- and of course to fix it!

  

Thankfully I'm in a decent spot not too far from shops in Northwich, close enough to a water point that I can tow it there, and I can even get coal etc if stuck for a week or two.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Tony1

[David Mack]

If you just have leaves around the prop there is no need to go weedhatch-diving. Indeed if you do, the leaves will have dropped off by the time you get the lid open. Just drop the engine into neutral when the forward motion drops off, possibly a quick burst of traverse the re-engage forward gear.

To diagnose where the problem might lie lift the deck boards/enginee cover (depending on your stern arrangement) and see if the coupling and propshaft are rotating with the engine in forward and reverse gear. And if not, do as suggested above - disconnect the gear cable from the gear box actuating lever, and check the propshaft rotation again using the gearbox lever to select forward and reverse.

[Tony1]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

If you just have leaves around the prop there is no need to go weedhatch-diving. Indeed if you do, the leaves will have dropped off by the time you get the lid open. Just drop the engine into neutral when the forward motion drops off, possibly a quick burst of traverse the re-engage forward gear.

To diagnose where the problem might lie lift the deck boards/enginee cover (depending on your stern arrangement) and see if the coupling and propshaft are rotating with the engine in forward and reverse gear. And if not, do as suggested above - disconnect the gear cable from the gear box actuating lever, and check the propshaft rotation again using the gearbox lever to select forward and reverse.

 

Cheers David- I have found in the past that a burst of forward and reverse seems to dislodge leaves and even weeds.

In this case I had a go at doing that, and that's how I became aware that reverse was no longer working. The prop turned half-decently in forward gear (enough to go slowly, and get moored up), but when I tried a burst in reverse, it was as if I was in neutral.

So I'm hoping Nick's idea is correct, and its just the cable has come loose, and that it happening at the time when the prop was badly fouled is just coincidence.

If its not the cable, then to be honest it'll be time for RCR to earn their annual fee....

 

 

[MtB]

40 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

PRM 120 is a good tough gearbox, I would be surprised if it in need of replacement, a new cone clutch is not expensive and easy to fix.

 

Get it running with the boards out and see what is not turning when you put it in gear. Shaft coupling flanges have been known to spin loose, that's why they used to have a keyway and key but many are just clamped now a days.

 

But is it not odd that it goes partially in ahead and not at all in astern? I'd expect a loose coupling to fail in either direction. 

 

My money is on a clutch fault and RCR will prescribe an exchange 'recon' gearbox for £loadsadosh

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by MtB
Add a bit.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

But is it not odd that it goes partially in ahead and not at all in astern? I'd expect a loose coupling to fail in either direction. 

 

My money is on a clutch fault.

 

 

 

On the available evidence so is mine, if its not a cable/control fault.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

On the available evidence so is mine, if its not a cable/control fault.

 

Yes I was thinking that too, after pressing the "Submit" button!

[Bee]

Most things are not as bad as feared. Couple of years ago a terrible clonking from the drive train / prop turned out to be a remarkably thin bit of willow clinging onto the prop and a nasty clicking sound was a bit of wire round the prop. Oh and the heavy knocking wasn't a main bearing or a big end, it was an engine mount that had un adjusted itself. Mind you, the occasional squealing sound was the shaft turning inside a coupling clamp  that finally let go the week after the Sharpness - Bristol trip. Phew.

[MtB]

 

In fact on reflection, that faults arose in both ahead and astern but different, I've changed my mind. I reckon the outer cable sleeve had come loose and just needs re-fixing (as someone suggested earlier). 

[Tony1]

 

Thanks MtB and Tony- one point that might shed some light is that when I first cleared the prop (clogged with string and fabric), full and normal forward motion seemed to be restored (in my case this means that at about 1300rpm the boat does about 3mph). It also seemed to respond much better after the clearing. 

 

But about an hour later, the forward speed was diminished again, but this time only by a bit.

My guess at the time was that it had gotten fouled again, as the canal was so full of debris, but it could have been a clutch issue. 

 

Fingers crossed its just the cable not getting it into reverse, but I must admit I do now fear it could well be a clutch problem. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Thanks MtB and Tony- one point that might shed some light is that when I first cleared the prop (clogged with string and fabric), full and normal forward motion seemed to be restored (in my case this means that at about 1300rpm the boat does about 3mph). It also seemed to respond much better after the clearing. 

 

But about an hour later, the forward speed was diminished again, but this time only by a bit.

My guess at the time was that it had gotten fouled again, as the canal was so full of debris, but it could have been a clutch issue. 

 

Fingers crossed its just the cable not getting it into reverse, but I must admit I do now fear it could well be a clutch problem. 

 

 

 

The hour later bit makes me think it could well be leaves unless you did drop it into neutral for a few seconds and the try ahead again.

[MtB]

13 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

But about an hour later, the forward speed was diminished again, but this time only by a bit.

 

An HOUR?!!

 

When its leaves on the prop, one usually needs to drop into neutral or engage reverse about once a minute. 

 

 

[Tony1]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

The hour later bit makes me think it could well be leaves unless you did drop it into neutral for a few seconds and the try ahead again.

 

Thanks Tony- to be honest my guest was driving for most of the cruise (as I'd promised to give her a chance to have a go at steering), so I cant be sure at exactly what point the forward power dropped, or whether it went into neutral at any time- it was her who mentioned that it seemed to be down a tad on power compared to earlier on, and I got the same impression when I drove for a bit. 

So in truth, it might not have taken a full hour to reduce forward power- that was just when she noticed it.

But what I am sure of is that after cutting the string away initially, there was definitely a period where the forward drive seemed back to normal. And even when it did slow, it was only by a bit. Most of the forward power is still there.

I'll get back in the hatch tomorrow and check if was fouled again on our return leg- it's even possible there are some bits of residual string left that I didnt get first time.  

 

 

 

 

[Tony1]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

An HOUR?!!

 

When its leaves on the prop, one usually needs to drop into neutral or engage reverse about once a minute. 

 

 

 

Hopefully that explains it- being unable to get the prop in reverse, and with the canal being so full of leaves and branches, would mean it wasn't getting cleared- and as I said, most of the forward power is still available, its maybe a 25% reduction, if that.  Its quite hard to be sure when you're not the one steering. 

I must say though, its not a comfortable experience standing next to a newbie who is steering your boat. Not recommended for the nerves...

 

[matty40s]

I can only recommend as a simple and first job,  checking your gearbox oil level. Often solves the problem before having to take things apart.

If it continues to leak oil, it's probably the selector O ring needs replacing.

Edited November 28, 2021 by matty40s

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

Hopefully that explains it- being unable to get the prop in reverse, and with the canal being so full of leaves and branches, would mean it wasn't getting cleared- and as I said, most of the forward power is still available, its maybe a 25% reduction, if that.  Its quite hard to be sure when you're not the one steering. 

I must say though, its not a comfortable experience standing next to a newbie who is steering your boat. Not recommended for the nerves...

 

Leaves massively reduce the efficiency of a propellor (much more that one might think unless you’ve experienced it) but they don’t stop the propellor rotating at the same speed as usual.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I must say though, its not a comfortable experience standing next to a newbie who is steering your boat.

 

You should try it when you're not on the boat!! 

 

First time I let Starcoaster steer mine on her own was when I went for fish and chips. I'd barely been off the boat 30 seconds when my phone rang - she'd run aground. 

 

Gurls, jeez!! 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by MtB
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