Buying a boat to CC in London: questions

[Mike on the Wey]

6 hours ago, agg221 said:

Also, don't forget areas like the Wey and the Basingstoke where transport links can be good.

Please be aware that continuous cruising (using the common interpretation of mooring for two weeks, moving a mile, rinse and repeat) is not possible on the Basingstoke or the Wey. The Wey is 20 miles long, and many have suggested that permanent CC'ing on the Wey would be fine. It isn't permitted by the National Trust, and similar rules apply on the Basingstoke which is owned by county councils. 

[Slim]

2 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

I wonder why I couldn't get to any water points in London when I went through a couple of times in 2007/8? They were always busy with queues of boats waiting to use them. Either I was just unlucky or things have improved since then. Or perhaps you've just been lucky in your few months of CCing?

Well, I only know the evidence of my eyes yesterday. Given 30 minutes for each boat the last person to have turned up faced a wait for 3 to 4 hours

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

   And is it time for fuel boats to do high-speed water tank filling as well? (preferably using different tanks…)

How much per Lt would you be prepared to pay

[EllaGlssp]

5 hours ago, David Mack said:

Most brokers advertise on Apolloduck, as well as private sellers.  You will also find boats on Ebay, Gumtree and Facebook Marketplace.

Boats are selling like hot cakes at the moment, so advertised boats may already have sold. Visit some of the brokers and show your interest and you are more likely to be contacted when something has just come in. I'm afraid you either have to put in a lot of leg work or wait until you strike lucky.

Be aware that a lot of older boats are given a quick cosmetic makeover to give an interior which may appeal to uninformed newbies, while ignoring some of the fundamentals (hull condition, engine, gas and electrics etc). Many boats originally with a varnished timber interior (typically pine planking or oak or ash veneered ply) have been painted all-over white - often referred to disparagingly as the 'London white' look. This may well be a look that appeals to a younger metropolitan buyer, but can also cover poor quality construction or damp staining, so try and look beyond the Instagram appeal.

This is super helpful- thank you! Interesting that you say boats are going fast at the mo as I have heard that now is the best time to look for a bloat (since people see the lifestyle as less desirable in the winter). How long do you think it will take for the market to calm down, or is this the new normal? 

 

Will keep an eye out on those sites, as a have been in a low-level way already

4 hours ago, Slim said:

Well, I only know the evidence of my eyes yesterday. Given 30 minutes for each boat the last person to have turned up faced a wait for 3 to 4 hours

yikes

Edited November 29, 2021 by EllaGlssp

[Alan de Enfield]

7 hours ago, EllaGlssp said:

This is super helpful- thank you! Interesting that you say boats are going fast at the mo as I have heard that now is the best time to look for a bloat (since people see the lifestyle as less desirable in the winter). How long do you think it will take for the market to calm down, or is this the new normal? 

 

Boat prices have been increasing steadily for the last 10+ years, I have been fortunate to sell every one of my boats (except one) for considerably more than I paid for it.

 

BUT - like a snow ball rolling down a mountain the last 2 years has seen a huge increase in the rate of increases and speed of sales.

Many boats are now being bought 'unseen' as the demand is so great. Many do not even reach the internet and brokers will have waiting lists of people who they just phone when a new boat is going to be put up for sale and say "new boat that I think is what you are loking for - coming in xxxday, first to say I'll have it gets it"

 

Personally I do not see the situation changing in the next few years (others may not agree) More C19 varients, more folk realising they can work from home, more travel restrictions, and yes some may well give up after a cold Winter, but there are several 'waiting in the wings' for every one that gives up.

 

You need to ensure you have the money available, be able to drop everything at a moments notice and decide on what level of risk you are prepared to take - if you want the boat surveyed then that is 3 or 4 weeks wait in which time someone can go in with a higher offer and not want a survey and buy it from underneath you.

 

On the other side of the coin - remember that sellers and brokers are not legally required to inform you of any faults that the boat has (it may even be sinking and only kept afloat by pumping it out every day) so you need to be aware that you need to look more than just 'skin deep' and 'London white' paint..

 

If a boat has sat for sale for more than 1 week then it is either seriously overpriced or there are some 'problems' with it.

[doratheexplorer]

20 hours ago, EllaGlssp said:

I’m a 23 year old girl looking to buy a boat to continuously cruise, mainly in and around London. I have done months of extensive research so I think I am pretty aware of most of the caveats of this lifestyle at this point, and I’m pretty certain it will be for me. I have a few specific questions about the process of buying and CCing though:

 

1. Where is the most reliable place to source and buy a narrowboat? I have heard that sourcing one outside of London would likely land me a better deal, though this would make viewings more inconvenient. The apolloduck website is the best place to look for boats for sale.  There are also a few facebook selling groups.

2. When looking at boats, what choices should I be l taking into consideration in terms of the specifics that can’t be easily changed.  Currently I’m hoping for a 40-50ft with a cruiser stern. I’m undecided about my preferred layout inside (eg. walk through bathroom, bedroom at front/back) so if anyone has any pros and cons about these things that would be great!  A cruiser stern is a good choice (despite what naysayers might say).  Excellent for have friends over for boat trips.  Easy access to the engine area and, in truth it won't make a huge difference to internal space as the engine has to go somewhere anyway, and that won't be useful living space.  If you want to maximise internal space, then get a pram cover for the stern.  The 2 big downsides of a cruiser:  1.  Rainwater WILL get into your engine bay (unless you have a pram cover), and it will be an ongoing battle to keep it dry.  2.  You have no weather protection while cruising, so good warm clothes are a must - look at heavy duty workwear clothes or clothes worn by anglers.  As to layout, a reverse layout (bedroom at front) works best with a cruiser stern as you'll be best entering the boat from the stern.  Ask yourself what you'd think of a flat which had a double bed just inside the front door?  As to things which can't be changed, at the top of the list are the hull itself and the insulation.  Look for a boat with a good sound hull, whick doesn't need overplating and does not show signs of excessive damp, which would indicate poor insulation.

3. Exactly how much electricity and water us realistic when CCing on a narrow boat, esp during the winter months? I’d be hoping to get a few solar panels, but would also love enough power for a small fridge and potentially a radio, alongside obvious stuff like lighting. Also, I would love a small bath- is this unrealistic in terms of the amount of hot water it would use?  All things are possible but whatever you take out, you have to put back in.  This applies to electricity AND water.  Look for a boat with good charging and electrical generation facilities.  This might be a large alternator (100amps or more), or a built in generator, or a travelpower.  A good size battery bank with a monitoring system is also a big plus.  Don't expect anything useful from solar between november and february.  Your bath issue comes down to: 1.  How big is the water tank on the boat.  2.  How big is the bath? 3.  How often will you be passing a water tap?  4.  Where will you be moving?  In London as a cc'er number 3 and 4 will be a big problem to you.  Long queues for water at the taps are common and a lack of moorings means you'll want to hang on to each mooring spot for 2 weeks.  Unless your water tank is huge you'll only be able to have an occassional bath or you'll be forever having to go searching for water.

4. Finding spots to moor in London: how hard is this? How long should I expect to be looking when doing a move?  It depends on what you mean by London.  If you think you'll be able to stay on the Regents Canal between Little Venice and Limehouse, then think again.  Look to go up the GU as far as Berkhamstead and include most of the River Lee and you'll be ok.  You need to be prepared to find nowhere to moor between Ladbrooke Grove and Limehouse, which would take at least 6 hours and could be more if you're held up at the locks and you're single handing.  You mind find a spot but don't bank on it, a really short boat has an advantage but 40-50' isn't short for London.  Double (and sometimes triple) mooring is the norm on this section.  While you're new to boating I would stick to an area between Berkhampstead and Brentford for your first few months until you are happy to brave the central regions.  There's plenty of train and tube stations along this way to get into London and moorings aren't hard to find.  There's also some really pretty places to enjoy.

5. And kind of related to that, how much of the year would realistically be spent actually within London rather than the very outskirts while still subscribing to CRT guidelines. What would a typical yearly route through London look like? See above.  The central areas are best seen as a transit route with occassional stopping.  Basically for every boat moored there, there are another ten or more trying to moor there.

6. I’m a younger single woman- how safe am I? If anyone has any direct experience with the London canals from this demographic, esp the rougher areas, do let me know. Get yourself on the London Boaters facebook group.  Incidents are regularly reported.  The Lee around Tottenham seems to be a trouble spot.  Other things you can do:  Get a secure boat.  Metal doors, not wooden.  Portholes, not big windows.  You need to be impregnable, you need to be safe on your boat.  Moor near other boats for safety in numbers.  Avoid areas with excessive vandalism, fly tipping, graffitti.  Trust your instincts.  If it doesn't feel safe, move.  Make friends with other boaters and cruise with them.  This also helps when sharing locks.  I'd also repeat that not focussing on London itself is a good strategy.  The GU north of Uxbridge is lovely, and feels safe.  Lots of other boats but not too many.  Lovely countryside.  Enough water points.  Easy commute into London.

 

Thanks so much in advance- any further tips please fire away! 

 

Ella

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

15 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

I wonder why I couldn't get to any water points in London when I went through a couple of times in 2007/8? They were always busy with queues of boats waiting to use them. Either I was just unlucky or things have improved since then. Or perhaps you've just been lucky in your few months of CCing?

They haven't improved.  I waited over 4 hours at Black Horse Bridge water point earlier this year.  However, a couple of weeks later I went straight onto the water point at Little Venice.  It's just luck.  But if you're cc'ing permanently around London, your luck will run out, and it's bound to be when you're short of time.

[IanD]

52 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

They haven't improved.  I waited over 4 hours at Black Horse Bridge water point earlier this year.  However, a couple of weeks later I went straight onto the water point at Little Venice.  It's just luck.  But if you're cc'ing permanently around London, your luck will run out, and it's bound to be when you're short of time.

I cycle past the Black Horse Bridge waterpoint several times a week, and I'd say it's occupied about half the time. Do you feel lucky, punk? -- well, do ya?

[doratheexplorer]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

I cycle past the Black Horse Bridge waterpoint several times a week, and I'd say it's occupied about half the time. Do you feel lucky, punk? -- well, do ya?

There were about 6 boats waiting when I was there.  Queuing on both sides which caused some confusion when it came to working out who was next.

[EllaGlssp]

3 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

This is all incredibly helpful- thank you SO much for taking the time. 

 

Exactly as you mentioned with the cruiser stern, I want to have a large outdoor area to spend with friends etc. Alternatively, I am also considered a tug deck to have that space as the front; I also think tugs look so charming (these seem to be hard to come by, though). Any other big problems with tugs?

 

Your insight into mooring in London is good to know- I’ve heard similar stories. My friend who is newish to boating in London has just gone from Camden to a Kings Cross mooring but I reckon she has got extremely lucky, plus her boat is very short as you say. Perhaps I should consider something shorter, though this would be more difficult with the tug/cruiser. 

 

I don’t mind going further outside London, my work is freelance and pretty flexible. My main concern is that the areas themselves are nice, thriving and busy with tasteful shops and cafes etc. - I don’t know much about the suburbs of London so perhaps will have to have an explore!

 

I must say I’m a bit worried by the horror stories of finding and buying a boat in the current market, esp wit all the specifications I’m after. Perhaps I will get in touch with a few brokers and let them know what I’m looking for in the hopes that they will tell me about it first, as people suggest.

 

Cheers again for all the insights! 

Edited November 29, 2021 by EllaGlssp

[IanD]

34 minutes ago, EllaGlssp said:

This is all incredibly helpful- thank you SO much for taking the time. 

 

Exactly as you mentioned with the cruiser stern, I want to have a large outdoor area to spend with friends etc. Alternatively, I am also considered a tug deck to have that space as the front; I also think tugs look so charming (these seem to be hard to come by, though). Any other big problems with tugs?

 

Your insight into mooring in London is good to know- I’ve heard similar stories. My friend who is newish to boating in London has just gone from Camden to a Kings Cross mooring but I reckon she has got extremely lucky, plus her boat is very short as you say. Perhaps I should consider something shorter, though this would be more difficult with the tug/cruiser. 

 

I don’t mind going further outside London, my work is freelance and pretty flexible. My main concern is that the areas themselves are nice, thriving and busy with tasteful shops and cafes etc. - I don’t know much about the suburbs of London so perhaps will have to have an explore!

 

I must say I’m a bit worried by the horror stories of finding and buying a boat in the current market, esp wit all the specifications I’m after. Perhaps I will get in touch with a few brokers and let them know what I’m looking for in the hopes that they will tell me about it first, as people suggest.

 

Cheers again for all the insights! 

 

You won't find much of the highlighted bit in most canal areas in London and suburbs, except in a few ludicrously popular areas like Little Venice or Camden Lock which are chock-full of other boaters looking for the same things -- the areas with a reasonable chance of finding moorings tend to be less "nice", for obvious reasons...

Edited November 29, 2021 by IanD

[dmr]

Tug decks are a bit "specialist" and will usually come with a boat with portholes rather than windows, and likely an engine in an engine room inside the boat. They have the advantage that you can maybe put a bed below them.  You want a shorter boat, enough space to live aboard, and outdoor socialising space 😀, I bet you have already worked out that everything on a boat is a conflict and compromise.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

You have the rest of the planet as outdoor socialising space. For living on board, under cover indoor space is more important.

[doratheexplorer]

26 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

You won't find much of the highlighted bit in most canal areas in London and suburbs, except in a few ludicrously popular areas like Little Venice or Camden Lock which are chock-full of other boaters looking for the same things -- the areas with a reasonable chance of finding moorings tend to be less "nice", for obvious reasons...

This is fairly accurate and often not realised by newbies.  Canals by their nature tend to connect to more industrial areas of cities.  There are a few exceptions but heading out of London towards Northolt and Hayes isn't going to lead you to many trendy boutiques or organic cafes.  If that's what you really want, then canals may not be for you.  This takes us back to the oft repeated words on here, that if you want to live on a boat it should be because you love the canals, the boats, the lifestyle.  The fancier places tend to be there by accident rather than design.  UK canals are not like Venice.

[ditchcrawler]

You can always socialise on the roof if its covered in rubbish important equipment

[Mike Adams]

You can find a residential mooring on the Thames or Wey but expect to pay the going rate of about £10k a year even then you may have to 'keep under the radar' in some marinas. If you want a 'houseboat' think long and hard about the mooring first. It can be nice to live on a residential mooring with all the facilities but living on the towpath would not suit me. It is only a matter of time before CCing in London gets curtailed if not stopped due to pressure from 'those on the bank' so a lot of people will be faced with a boat that may well become worthless. Living on a boat and paying for a mooring is not a cheap way of life in the South East.

[doratheexplorer]

27 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

You have the rest of the planet as outdoor socialising space. For living on board, under cover indoor space is more important.

The rest of the world may be there but it isn't much use for socialising when you're moving along.  Also, there are many places I moor when I'm very thankful that I can set up table and chair on my deck as the towpath simply isn't wide enough or is too crowded.

 

A well designed cruiser deck doesn't actually reduce your living space much.  A trad with an engine room is worse in that respect (altough the engine room has other uses).  A trad stern with an engine under either ends up with a large boxed off section inside the stern doors which uses up as much space as a cruiser deck, or the engine is tucked right under the deck which means it's an absolute bugger to service.  I have a cruiser stern, and if I bought another boat, I'd be looking for the same again.

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by doratheexplorer

[EllaGlssp]

39 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

You can find a residential mooring on the Thames or Wey but expect to pay the going rate of about £10k a year even then you may have to 'keep under the radar' in some marinas. If you want a 'houseboat' think long and hard about the mooring first. It can be nice to live on a residential mooring with all the facilities but living on the towpath would not suit me. It is only a matter of time before CCing in London gets curtailed if not stopped due to pressure from 'those on the bank' so a lot of people will be faced with a boat that may well become worthless. Living on a boat and paying for a mooring is not a cheap way of life in the South East.

You think they are going to get rid of CCing entirely? What a shame that would be!! I can’t imagine they would take action that drastic…

[EllaGlssp]

47 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

This is fairly accurate and often not realised by newbies.  Canals by their nature tend to connect to more industrial areas of cities.  There are a few exceptions but heading out of London towards Northolt and Hayes isn't going to lead you to many trendy boutiques or organic cafes.  If that's what you really want, then canals may not be for you.  This takes us back to the oft repeated words on here, that if you want to live on a boat it should be because you love the canals, the boats, the lifestyle.  The fancier places tend to be there by accident rather than design.  UK canals are not like Venice.

I am aware of this, and it is the lifestyle that I am considering buying a boat for. I am not expecting quaint little venetian towns all along the canal- what I am hoping for is a nice local community and a few decent supermarkets and cafes, and decent transport links to the centre of London, because I can’t write off my life outside of the boat entirely! I understand that to cruise in good faith means not just aiming for the trendy central areas all the time, but I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that these areas aren’t very desirable and lovely when they do come about- I see them as a bonus to an already rewarding way of living!

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

You have the rest of the planet as outdoor socialising space. For living on board, under cover indoor space is more important.

the big tug deck/cruiser stern debate seems to divide opinion. Persoanlly, I really value time outside and am not too fussed by a more cramped indoor space. I tend to have friends round a lot - plus in all my past flats the small outdoor space I’ve had has always been super valuable to me. I get so much joy from keeping plants and socialising outside in my own curated little space!

Edited November 29, 2021 by EllaGlssp

[doratheexplorer]

8 minutes ago, EllaGlssp said:

You think they are going to get rid of CCing entirely? What a shame that would be!! I can’t imagine they would take action that drastic…

Ignore the doom-mongers.  There's no prospect of that happening.  What may happen is a gradual tightening of the rules regarding continuous cruising.  For the foreseeable future, so long as you cast off every 2 weeks and move along to a new spot (and not a spot you've recently been to), then CRT will have no interest in you.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, EllaGlssp said:

I am aware of this, and it is the lifestyle that I am considering buying a boat for. I am not expecting quaint little venetian towns all along the canal- what I am hoping for is a nice local community and a few decent supermarkets and cafes, and decent transport links to the centre of London, because I can’t write off my life outside of the boat entirely! I understand that to cruise in good faith means not just aiming for the trendy central areas all the time, but I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that these areas aren’t very desirable and lovely when they do come about- I see them as a bonus to an already rewarding way of living!

 

You won't find the highlighted bits (except for friendly boaters) on the majority of the canals in London, except in a few honeypot locations.

 

Decent transport links are easier, so long as you're moored near a bridge with a bus route -- locations near tube/rail stations tend to fall into the "honeypot" category because that's what everyone wants...

 

It's not that the other areas are undesirable, they're (mostly) perfectly OK for mooring -- it's just that they don't have what you're looking for.

Edited November 29, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, EllaGlssp said:

You think they are going to get rid of CCing entirely? What a shame that would be!! I can’t imagine they would take action that drastic…

 

There are currently no (known) plans to do so, but infortunately the 'few' who sign up and agree to legally CC and then don't, spoil it for the majority who do comply.

Already in the new terms and conditions for getting a licence there is now a new licence category for CCers (this has never been shown before) and there are currently plans to review the licencing structure. Traditionally your licence fee was based on length, a 'couple of years ago' width became a factor, so both length and width now affect your licence fee the longer and fatter you are the more you pay.

 

There are now rumblings about making the licence fee based on usage such that those who use the most resources pay the most.

Someone who has a home mooring and is just a weekend / holiday leisure boater should pay less than someone who lives on the water and uses C&RTs facilities (Bins, water, toilet emptying locks, etc etc) every day / week of the year should pay more.

 

This was last looked at a few years ago and the proposal was to charge CCers 2.5x the licence fee of the same sized boat that was used for 'leisure'.

 

Boats with Composting toilets are already banned from many marinas and from the end of this year they will not be allowed to dump their partly composted wast in the C&RT bins.

 

Changing times are a coming.

[doratheexplorer]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

You won't find the highlighted bits (except for friendly boaters) on the majority of the canals in London, except in a few honeypot locations.

 

Decent transport links are easier, so long as you're moored near a bridge with a bus route -- locations near tube/rail stations tend to fall into the "honeypot" category because that's what everyone wants...

 

It's not that the other areas are undesirable, they're (mostly) perfectly OK for mooring -- it's just that they don't have what you're looking for.

This is true.  An example of a place I moored while travelling through London a few months ago:

 

 

It was a nice enough place to moor for a while (the water was very clear).  But the nearest cafe was a long way off.  This is it:

 

[doratheexplorer]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There are currently no (known) plans to do so, but infortunately the 'few' who sign up and agree to legally CC and then don't, spoil it for the majority who do comply.

Already in the new terms and conditions for getting a licence there is now a new licence category for CCers (this has never been shown before) and there are currently plans to review the licencing structure. Traditionally your licence fee was based on length, a 'couple of years ago' width became a factor, so both length and width now affect your licence fee the longer and fatter you are the more you pay.

 

There are now rumblings about making the licence fee based on usage such that those who use the most resources pay the most.

Someone who has a home mooring and is just a weekend / holiday leisure boater should pay less than someone who lives on the water and uses C&RTs facilities (Bins, water, toilet emptying locks, etc etc) every day / week of the year should pay more.

 

This was last looked at a few years ago and the proposal was to charge CCers 2.5x the licence fee of the same sized boat that was used for 'leisure'.

How would this work for all those liveaboards who have a leisure mooring but still cruise for a large portion of the year?  All this proposal would do is further encourage 'ghost' moorings.

Boats with Composting toilets are already banned from many marinas and from the end of this year they will not be allowed to dump their partly composted wast in the C&RT bins.

 

Changing times are a coming.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

How would this work for all those liveaboards who have a leisure mooring but still cruise for a large portion of the year?  All this proposal would do is further encourage 'ghost' moorings.

 

That's us.

We pay £3000+ pa for a mooring but only use it 6 or 7 months of the year, much of the other 5 or 6 months we are out cruising.

 

Don't forget that your mooring has to exist and C&RT check it.