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Generator Charging


lewisericeric

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I possibly posted on this many years ago....

 

I've currently got an alternator problem, so a friend had leant me their generator to charge. The generator is this one: New tab (ebay.co.uk)

 

I've got the same issue again when trying to plug this generator into the shoreline entry on my boat, my Victron 3000w inverter lights up to show 'bulk' charging, then the unit switches off. (the inverter switches off, not the generator) so nothing happens.

 

How do other boaters charge via generators?

 

Previously on my last boat, I had a Hyundai suitcase generator, which didn't charge, with a Sterling inverter. I then had a Honda suitcase generator on this boat which didn't charge and caused issues with the inverter. Honda looked into this and actually confirmed that it's because suitcase generators have their own inverters, so butt heads with inverters on boats .Fine, I thought, I understand that....

 

But now, this is a 'regular' generator, so expected it to work? What's the issue or is there something I'm missing?????? 

 

Any help appreciated.

 

Thanks

Lewis

Edited by lewisericeric
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Could it be an earth issue of some kind? The Victron recognises a problem, and switches off.

 

With my previous Honda EU20i my earth checking plug showed a fault, which apparently meant that the RCD in the consumer unit would trip if there was a fault. Some research suggested that I connect the neutral and earth in the plug that goes into the genny. This is actually part of the instructions on my current EU10i. Solved the issue.

 

This may not be the issue in your case, but there is a strong chance that the Victron is checking for something, finding “fault” and turning off.

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I'm not sure why you keep talking about inverters? Your inverter converts DC power from your batteries to AC power, it's nothing to do with charging. If you want to use a generator to charge your batteries you need to run a battery charger. If your battery charger is combined with an inverter (a combi) then make sure the inverter part is switched off - ie. set to Charge Only

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4 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Could it be an earth issue of some kind? The Victron recognises a problem, and switches off.

 

With my previous Honda EU20i my earth checking plug showed a fault, which apparently meant that the RCD in the consumer unit would trip if there was a fault. Some research suggested that I connect the neutral and earth in the plug that goes into the genny. This is actually part of the instructions on my current EU10i. Solved the issue.

 

This may not be the issue in your case, but there is a strong chance that the Victron is checking for something, finding “fault” and turning off.

 

It could be an earthing issue. Victrons are very sensitive bits of kit. Personally I like my electrical equipment a bit more basic and robust. My Sterling charger accepts mains from the generator whether it's N-E bonded or not.

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4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'm not sure why you keep talking about inverters….

 

I wondered that, but the it became clear that it is an inverter charger later in the thread.

 

4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

If your battery charger is combined with an inverter (a combi) then make sure the inverter part is switched off - ie. set to Charge Only


Looks like he’s tried that, but maybe not :) 

2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

It could be an earthing issue. Victrons are very sensitive bits of kit. Personally I like my electrical equipment a bit more basic and robust. My Sterling charger accepts mains from the generator whether it's N-E bonded or not.

My previous Sterling inverter charger also happily accepted mains from the genny, with no N-E bond. It was only when I used the tester plug that I discovered the issue with the RCD.

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If it's an earthing issue then the blurb about the generator (from the link in the OP) shows a big photo of a bolt and caption "External Earth Point" under the heading "Features". That may need connecting to the boat's earth... or it may not?? Just a thought.

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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

It could be an earthing issue. Victrons are very sensitive bits of kit. Personally I like my electrical equipment a bit more basic and robust. My Sterling charger accepts mains from the generator whether it's N-E bonded or not.

I had the same issues with charging on Sterling inverters too. Blew up a Honda generator and a Hyundai. That was my old boat. This boat is a victron. A more 'basic' generator and still problems. Don't know how you all do it haha.

 

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

I'm not sure why you keep talking about inverters? Your inverter converts DC power from your batteries to AC power, it's nothing to do with charging. If you want to use a generator to charge your batteries you need to run a battery charger. If your battery charger is combined with an inverter (a combi) then make sure the inverter part is switched off - ie. set to Charge Only

 I have an inverter/charger combi unit. The Victron Multiplius, and yes I did try switching to 'charge' only but still nothing. 

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

 

Interesting about the earth/neutral, but it is a normal threepin plug that goes into the generator so will have the earth/neutral connected already? Then there's the round shoreline plug the other end which goes into my boat? 

Currently I've plugged in a battery charger into the generator and have that directly onto the batteries, but what a hassle this all is.... If I could just get the gennie to work via the shoreline cable, there'd hardly be any issue while I'm waiting for my alternator to be looked at under warranty

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Victrons can be a bit sensitive to voltage waveform. There is a setting to allow the Victron to be less “fussy” about incoming voltage waveform though no idea why this isn’t the default setting! So you may need to change that setting. Alternatively if you can connect an incandescent (old fashioned) light bulb, 100watts or so, or  to the generator before the Victron, this might help settle the waveform a bit.

From the Victron manual:

 

Weak AC

Strong distortion of the input voltage can result in the charger hardly operating or not operating at all. If WeakAC is set, the charger will also accept a strongly distorted voltage, at the cost of greater distortion of the input current.

Recommendation: Turn WeakAC on if the charger is hardly charging or not charging at all (which is quite rare!). Also turn on the dynamic current limiter simultaneously, and reduce the maximum charging current to prevent overloading the generator if necessary.

Edited by nicknorman
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Also the dynamic current limiter setting:

Dynamic current limiter

Intended for generators, the AC voltage being generated by means of a static inverter (so-called ‘inverter’ generators). In these generators, engine rpm is reduced in case of low load: this reduces noise, fuel consumption and pollution. A disadvantage is that the output voltage will drop severely or even completely fail in the event of a sudden load increase. More load can only be supplied after the engine is up to speed.

If this setting is ‘on’, the MultiPlus-II will start supplying extra power at a low generator output level and gradually allow the generator to supply more, until the set current limit is reached. This allows the generator engine to get up to speed.

This setting is also often used for ‘classical’ generators that respond slowly to sudden load variation.

 

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Interesting, Nicknorman, thanks. So putting a load on first and then connecting shoreline/Victron could be a way around??? 

 

Not got 100w bulb, anything I've got over 5/10watts would be a toaster!!!! Could I bash that on do we reckon?!

I don't seem to have any options on my Victron Multiplus to be able to change any settings? I was always under the assumption that you needed some sort of 'software' to be able to edit the settings rather than having the settings on the box, as per Sterling inverters, for example? 

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I have *Rediline generator, and it doesn't like electronic stuff, some pieces of equipment won't set it going. Using something like an incandescent light bulb, to set the generator off, sorts the problem. This may or may not be pertinent. Just saying.

 

* This generator only activates on demand. Old tech - Hooked up to batteries. 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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3 minutes ago, lewisericeric said:

Could I use a toaster? Not got a lightbulb, that's the next biggest thing I have, the toaster haha. Boom!

 

I'd say it isn't your best choice, it'll want to switch off. 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, lewisericeric said:

Interesting, Nicknorman, thanks. So putting a load on first and then connecting shoreline/Victron could be a way around??? 

 

Not got 100w bulb, anything I've got over 5/10watts would be a toaster!!!! Could I bash that on do we reckon?!

I don't seem to have any options on my Victron Multiplus to be able to change any settings? I was always under the assumption that you needed some sort of 'software' to be able to edit the settings rather than having the settings on the box, as per Sterling inverters, for example? 

Yes connect the load first (toaster would probably be OK since it’s quite a powerful generator) then connect to the Combi.

 

Some settings can be changed using DIP switches inside the Combi. There is some variations with different models so read the instructions for your specific model. But I suspect that you can activate dynamic current limit but not weak ac from the dip switches. By far the easiest and best way to change the settings is via a laptop with the free software, and the Victron interface cable, which in the great scheme of things is not particularly expensive.

Edited by nicknorman
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It worked!!!

 

However, slight problem. I have tubular gel batteries, and the voltage on my smartgauge is showing between 14.5 and 14.6

 

I thought gel had to be charged at a lower rate? 

 

But in the specs on my battery sheet, I see this.

 

Cycle Use:
Initial Charging Current:less than 20.1A

Voltage 14.4V~14.7V at 25 C(77 F)

 Temp.Coefficient -30mV/ C

 

Do any tech guys know if this means they can be charged up to 14.7??? These are tubular, deep cycle gel, not ordinary gel or AGM

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13 minutes ago, lewisericeric said:

It worked!!!

 

However, slight problem. I have tubular gel batteries, and the voltage on my smartgauge is showing between 14.5 and 14.6

 

I thought gel had to be charged at a lower rate? 

 

But in the specs on my battery sheet, I see this.

 

Cycle Use:
Initial Charging Current:less than 20.1A

Voltage 14.4V~14.7V at 25 C(77 F)

 Temp.Coefficient -30mV/ C

 

Do any tech guys know if this means they can be charged up to 14.7??? These are tubular, deep cycle gel, not ordinary gel or AGM

Well that’s what the spec says! There are different types of gel cell, just stick with what the manufacturer says. Also note the temperature coefficient. If the batteries are in a cold engine bay, let’s say at 5C, that means the charge voltage needs to be increased by 30mV x 20 = 600mV ie 0.6v. So the voltages quoted can be increased by 0.6v ie 15v to 15.3v. (Note: Assuming the batteries are cold.)

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Hi Nick,

 

Thanks so, so much for your advice on this one. You've really saved my life!!! 

Is that what it means under 'cycle life' then that they can be charged with a voltage of up to 14.7? I can never get my head around anything technical like that so I'm never sure if that's what it means or if it's relating to something else somehow!

 

And everywhere I read online, say gel should be charged no more than 14.2. If I charge up to 14.7 and that's what that line out of the specs mean, that I copied and pasted in my previous response, I'm good to go?

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2 minutes ago, lewisericeric said:

Hi Nick,

 

Thanks so, so much for your advice on this one. You've really saved my life!!! 

Is that what it means under 'cycle life' then that they can be charged with a voltage of up to 14.7? I can never get my head around anything technical like that so I'm never sure if that's what it means or if it's relating to something else somehow!

 

And everywhere I read online, say gel should be charged no more than 14.2. If I charge up to 14.7 and that's what that line out of the specs mean, that I copied and pasted in my previous response, I'm good to go?

Yes cycle use means you charge them up, then you discharge them. Rinse and repeat. The alternative would be Standby use where the batteries are kept on a float charge for days weeks months or years, and only get discharged once in a blue moon eg when the mains supply fails. For standby use (permanently connected to a charger) the voltage would be less - a “float” voltage.

 

So you are good to go. If anything the voltage is a bit low if the batteries are cold.

 

You are right in that plenty of gel cells don’t like to be charged at too high a voltage. But tubular gel cells are more “industrial” and can be charged at a higher voltage. They have a recombination element that converts any gassed-off hydrogen and oxygen back into water. Anyway the bottom line is always follow the manufacturer’s recommended charging regime, which in this case is the 14.4 to 14.7v, or a bit higher if they are cold.

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I feel like I've won the lottery right now!! Best Saturday night ever!!! 

 

Thanks again Nick, so much - and to everyone else - but you've really put my mind at ease and cleared things up for me. 

 

Really appreciate you taking the time out to create the responses too and all very clear and easy to understand!! 😁

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

If the batteries are in a cold engine bay, let’s say at 5C, that means the charge voltage needs to be increased by 30mV x 20 = 600mV ie 0.6v. So the voltages quoted can be increased by 0.6v ie 15v to 15.3v. (Note: Assuming the batteries are cold.)

Depending who installed @lewisericeric's Victron combi and how they did it, there may well be a thermistor temperature sensor attached to one of the battery negative posts with a couple of thin wires going back to the combi. This will help automagically handle the raising and lowering of the voltage as the temperature of the batteries changes. It is a common feature on Victron blue boxes. 

Jen

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1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Depending who installed @lewisericeric's Victron combi and how they did it, there may well be a thermistor temperature sensor attached to one of the battery negative posts with a couple of thin wires going back to the combi. This will help automagically handle the raising and lowering of the voltage as the temperature of the batteries changes. It is a common feature on Victron blue boxes. 

Jen

Yes I suspect this is why the voltage is 14.5 or so. It would probably have been 14.2 in summer.

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