Buying my first boat

[booke23]

4 hours ago, HannahDee said:

Booke, in terms of propeller sizes, this is certainly something I wouldn't have picked up and no nothing about. No you have any recommendations on where to read up on this? I tried to look into prop sizes-engine capability last night, with little luck. Would this also impact the rudder, perhaps why it needs re-welding? 

Propeller sizing is a bit of a black art. It is hard to get definitive answers but this propeller calculator is a good place to start https://vicprop.com/displacement_size_new.php/?m=1

 

I put your boats details into the calculator (I made educated guesses on some of the figures, but we know the important figures already) and it recommended a 16x10 prop. My own experience is with BetaMarine engines and they recommend a 17x10 prop on their 35hp engine., so something around that size would seem a likely match for your engine. You can go slightly over or under the recommended prop size (an 18x10 or 16x10) but 18x17 would seem grossly big.

 

The only other caveat is that it might actually have a 3:1 gearbox (brokers are very good at getting these details wrong). In this case the 18x17 prop would be about right!

[Mad Harold]

59 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Possibly in Yorkshire.  In London that's pretty competitive.

I can only assume that southerners have too much money,and as long as there are people around prepared to pay silly money for a mediocre canal boats,then prices will remain too high.

I do want a bigger boat than my present one,and I am waiting hopefully for boat prices to become more realistic,and if that doesn't happen,I will stick with what I have got.

 

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, booke23 said:

Propeller sizing is a bit of a black art. It is hard to get definitive answers but this propeller calculator is a good place to start https://vicprop.com/displacement_size_new.php/?m=1

 

I put your boats details into the calculator (I made educated guesses on some of the figures, but we know the important figures already) and it recommended a 16x10 prop. My own experience is with BetaMarine engines and they recommend a 17x10 prop on their 35hp engine., so something around that size would seem a likely match for your engine. You can go slightly over or under the recommended prop size (an 18x10 or 16x10) but 18x17 would seem grossly big.

 

The only other caveat is that it might actually have a 3:1 gearbox (brokers are very good at getting these details wrong). In this case the 18x17 prop would be about right!

The Victron calculator comes up with prop sizes which are pretty close to what engine manufacturers like Beta use, to what Crowthers have recommended on various boats, and even what electric boat suppliers like Finesse have found by testing -- so I'd say that it's a bit more than good place to start, if your prop size is well off from what it recommends then you're almost certainly over- or under-propped.

 

Obviously it's crucial to use the right data (engine power, rpm and gearbox ratio), propeller rpm in particular makes a *massive* difference to the optimum prop size, to swing a big prop it needs to turn more slowly than on most modern boats.

Edited November 24, 2021 by IanD

[doratheexplorer]

48 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

I can only assume that southerners have too much money,and as long as there are people around prepared to pay silly money for a mediocre canal boats,then prices will remain too high.

I do want a bigger boat than my present one,and I am waiting hopefully for boat prices to become more realistic,and if that doesn't happen,I will stick with what I have got.

 

Not really.  The south has a broken housing market in a way which the north simply doesn't.  That's why boat's are more expensive; because they get snapped up quickly by folks who can't afford any other option.  So actually high London boat prices are driven by poverty, not wealth.  It's one of the reasons why the government's levelling up agenda is flawed.  Beware, as their idea of levelling up would see that same broken housing market replicated everywhere.

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Not really.  The south has a broken housing market in a way which the north simply doesn't.  That's why boat's are more expensive; because they get snapped up quickly by folks who can't afford any other option.  So actually high London boat prices are driven by poverty, not wealth.  It's one of the reasons why the government's levelling up agenda is flawed.  Beware, as their idea of levelling up would see that same broken housing market replicated everywhere.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that holds.

 

If all would-be London boat dwellers were that poor, they would take advantage of the massive arbitrage opportunity of buying a northern (or even a midlands) boat for £20k less and cruising it down south. Some do but plenty don't, they have the money hence the inflated London boat market. 

[doratheexplorer]

5 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'm not entirely convinced that holds.

 

If all would-be London boat dwellers were that poor, they would take advantage of the massive arbitrage opportunity of buying a northern (or even a midlands) boat for £20k less and cruising it down south. Some do but plenty don't, they have the money hence the inflated London boat market. 

There's enough down there who don't realise what they could save further north to push prices up.  Note the price disparity for boats is nowhere near as much as it is for moorings (because they can't be moved).  Remember a good proportion of London boats are bought by first time buyers who know absolutely nothing about canals or boats.  They get the idea because of a friend who's done it and they're both as clueless as each other.  In many cases they don't even realise the London canals are connected to the northern canals.  Try chatting to boaters on the Regents Canal and you'll soon find people like this.

 

The other thing to add to this is supply and demand issues, with so many people down there looking and not enough boats for sale, which has been pushing prices up for years too.  The rest of the country has seen a similar thing happen during the pandemic and look what's happened as a result!

 

If it were really true that it's because buyers down there have so much money that they don't mind paying more, then you'd expect a price disparity for used cars too, but there isn't one.

 

 

[GoldenV]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'm not entirely convinced that holds.

 

If all would-be London boat dwellers were that poor, they would take advantage of the massive arbitrage opportunity of buying a northern (or even a midlands) boat for £20k less and cruising it down south. Some do but plenty don't, they have the money hence the inflated London boat market. 

Sure this is the case for others, but I have viewed quite a few in Nottinghamshire (where I'm from), and have had my eye on marina's much further afield. Sadly, the prices aren't much better than in the South at present - or at least in my experience so far. More than happy to move one down if it is the right one. 

1 hour ago, IanD said:

1 hour ago, booke23 said:

Propeller sizing is a bit of a black art. It is hard to get definitive answers but this propeller calculator is a good place to start https://vicprop.com/displacement_size_new.php/?m=1

 

I put your boats details into the calculator (I made educated guesses on some of the figures, but we know the important figures already) and it recommended a 16x10 prop. My own experience is with BetaMarine engines and they recommend a 17x10 prop on their 35hp engine., so something around that size would seem a likely match for your engine. You can go slightly over or under the recommended prop size (an 18x10 or 16x10) but 18x17 would seem grossly big.

 

The only other caveat is that it might actually have a 3:1 gearbox (brokers are very good at getting these details wrong). In this case the 18x17 prop would be about right!

Expand  

The Victron calculator comes up with prop sizes which are pretty close to what engine manufacturers like Beta use, to what Crowthers have recommended on various boats, and even what electric boat suppliers like Finesse have found by testing -- so I'd say that it's a bit more than good place to start, if your prop size is well off from what it recommends then you're almost certainly over- or under-propped.

 

Obviously it's crucial to use the right data (engine power, rpm and gearbox ratio), propeller rpm in particular makes a *massive* difference to the optimum prop size, to swing a big prop it needs to turn more slowly than on most modern boats.

 

Thank you both, this is really useful information

[robtheplod]

When I come to sell my boat I'll moor in Paddington with a big sale sign up and see what i can get...

[LEO]

I am wondering if the World has gone 'topsey turvey' I bought my first boat back in 1988, without a survey for £9500, it went well and I kept her for 18 years. I replaced her in 2005 for another boat, again bought with out a survey.. it's still going ( well with a Gardner, what would you expect.)  I spent a lifetime working with with 'peeps' buying and selling properties and few went into the depth of questions/surveys potential purchasers of boats go into now.............perhaps it's because 'peeps' can't but properties now.....perhaps we can discuss the rise in boat values as aligned to house values as demand for 'liveaboards' increases ans=d stimulates values. 

[Cordless]

8 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

When I come to sell my boat I'll moor in Paddington with a big sale sign up and see what i can get...

And then take the train up north to get back to the boat you've just bought!

[MtB]

2 hours ago, booke23 said:

Propeller sizing is a bit of a black art. It is hard to get definitive answers but this propeller calculator is a good place to start

 

 

That's because there IS no definitive answer. Prop sizing is a matter of taste and personal opinion. 

 

A prop can certainly be sized reasonably accurately to soak up peak engine power and fully load the engine, transferring all the power into the water at the top of the engine power curve, but this can make for an uncomfortable boat to steer. The boat will 'feel' underpropped as to go at any sort of normal pace will still require quite a high (and noisy) engine speed as power transfer is proportional to the cube of the shaft speed. Stopping in astern will also be particularly poor unless you rev the nuts off the engine. 

 

Consequently it is (usually) better to choose a bigger blade than the calc for peak power come up with. the engine will be technically over-propped but at normal cruising speed the engine will feel calmer and happier, and in astern stopping will be easier and sharper.  How much bigger, if at all, is a matter of taste and opinion. Two people can steer the same boat and one might think the blade is fine and the other might consider it over (or under) propped. 

[GoldenV]

So my gut feeling was to put in a much lower asking price, of around £30k. I of course imagine this will be rejected, but do you think (in this inflated market) that is absurd/just plain insulting? Appreciate your responses so far. 

 

The very basic interior design isn't a deterrent for me, this is something I can do myself, and I' fortunate to have family/friends who are tradespeople too who are willing to lend a helping hand. 

 

In terms of potential damp, I could be wrong, but I spent a good 40 minutes inspecting the pipes I had access too, windows and other usual weak spots for damp, and didn't find anything, there also wasn't the alarming mushroom smell, so I from my inspection, I think the poor paint job is down to a poorly skilled painter more than anything here? 😕 

[Detling]

Looking at the paintwork inside is skimpy and looks a rush job, but being indoors will probably do a few years. Outside looks similar a few tins of paint slapped on after a quick sand. If it is intact and watertight and not peeling in 12 months I will be very surprised, winter is very cruel to paint. Just to add Red fades more than any colour, so touching up will rapidly get difficult.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, HannahDee said:

So my gut feeling was to put in a much lower asking price, of around £30k. I of course imagine this will be rejected, but do you think (in this inflated market) that is absurd/just plain insulting?

 

Whether it comes across as insulting or not, lies in how you present your offer. Consider:

 

1) It's only worth £30k to me mate, take it or leave it.

 

And 

 

2) It's a lovely boat but not quite exactly what I want, but I could make what I want. The trouble is, if I spend more than £30k I won't be able to make it 'just right for me'. But if you could see your way to taking £30k, we would have a deal. I fully understand that you'll probably prefer to carry on marketing to get a higher price, but if you could see your way to agreeing a price of £30k, you have sale here and now. 

 

The first is adversarial and combative, the second collaborative and understanding but they both amount to the same thing, presented in different ways. Obviously use your own words but the second I suggest is more likely to result in a mutually acceptable deal happening. 

[bill brown]

Someone once said to me 'If they're not insulted by your first offer - it's not low enough" 😂. Let's face it apart from the kitchen and bathroom it's basically a shell... and what's that paper on the kitchen walls hiding? I think it's probably worth 28k-30k tops but as others would remark, it's worth whatever someone is  willing to pay for it.

[GoldenV]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

My experiences of that broker were no good.

 

Visit one to look at a potential boat for a friend. Boat seemed OK but a bit scruffy, Having checked the oil & water started the engine to  check it and the gearbox. Found all the cables etc. working as they should be but no ahead gear. Told broker so they could action it but the reply was that i had no business to start it because I could have damaged it - why give me the keys then!!!!

 

Visit to to view a boat I was interested in buying. Found damp carpet by the steps into the back cabin and the accommodation bilge full of water. Despite advertised as having been newly repainted found paint over rust scabs that flaked off with the slightest probe with a small electrical screwdriver in remote locker locations. Also reported both to to broker. Apparently the water in the bilge was just condensation and nothing to worry about and that I had no business to be probing rust scabs because that is what surveyors are for. What sort of a broker is it that can't even keep a boats accommodation bilge pumped out?

 

This was over 20 years ago and the owner at that time is no longer with us, but it is not a broker I would happily use.

Hi Tony, funnily enough, I had an extremely similar experience, despite the 20-year gap! They gave me the keys to the three boats I was seeing, left me to it, I went to turn the invertor on, and it was faulty, let them know it was tripping and the person I spoke to said the same thing - that I shouldn't have tried as they don't let anyone try electrics/engines out as they would be liable if I(?) broke it. I had to insist that someone had a look at it - it turned out it was just the isolator key that was faulty - but yes very odd and quite unhelpful in comparison to other brokers I've dealt with. Doesn't seem like there's much point in viewing a boat in the first place if it's not to check everything is as described :')

[GoldenV]

6 minutes ago, bill brown said:

'If they're not insulted by your first offer - it's not low enough" 😂

Absolute gold Bill 😅 Duly noted

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

Whether it comes across as insulting or not, lies in how you present your offer. Consider:

 

1) It's only worth £30k to me mate, take it or leave it.

 

And 

 

2) It's a lovely boat but not quite exactly what I want, but I could make what I want. The trouble is, if I spend more than £30k I won't be able to make it 'just right for me'. But if you could see your way to taking £30k, we would have a deal. I fully understand that you'll probably prefer to carry on marketing to get a higher price, but if you could see your way to agreeing a price of £30k, you have sale here and now. 

 

The first is adversarial and combative, the second collaborative and understanding but they both amount to the same thing, presented in different ways. Obviously use your own words but the second I suggest is more likely to result in a mutually acceptable deal happening.

Thanks MtB, really useful advise here

[MtB]

46 minutes ago, bill brown said:

Someone once said to me 'If they're not insulted by your first offer - it's not low enough" 😂.

 

Written by someone who is actually piss poor at negotiating, I'd suggest.

 

The corollary to this is, "If they are insulted by your first offer forget trying to raise it you've burnt your boats, they won't be listening."

 

Point is, if it is done in a way that makes them feel insulted, they won't be amenable to engaging in any further negotiation to reach a mutually agreeable price. Assuming that was the intention. 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by MtB
Finesse a point.

[Alan de Enfield]

One think that really frustrates me (maybe even annoys me) with the 'house' TV programmes (and boat buyers) is when they say " I'm sure its worth the money to someone, but I need to allow for the cost of repainting, etc etc, so my offer if only £xxxxx)

 

If you don't like my paint / wallpaper / carpets then either don't beat me down on price, or dont buy the house / boat.

It's your choice.

 

There are currently dozens of buyers who will buy it unseen & at the asking price.

[GoldenV]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are currently dozens of buyers who will buy it unseen & at the asking price.

Which is their choice, but seems mad to me unless you have very deep pockets. I can't see the harm done in putting forward an offer, there do seem to be a lot of chancers selling 

Edited November 24, 2021 by HannahDee

[PCSB]

I guess it depends on how much you want that particular boat. If you put in an offer of what you think or feel its worth to you, and do it in an amenable way, the worst they can do is say no thank you. Plenty of half reasonable brokers get boats in for the money you are looking at, you just sometimes have to be quick off the mark.

 

Heres one for example that may be worth a call Mole | Narrowboat for Sale | Aqueduct Marina Cheshire

 

No allegience with Aqueduct though we will be putting our boat in the marina there at some stage.

 

Good luck with your boat hunt (we've been looking for nearly 3 years now ...)

[booke23]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

That's because there IS no definitive answer. Prop sizing is a matter of taste and personal opinion. 

 

A prop can certainly be sized reasonably accurately to soak up peak engine power and fully load the engine, transferring all the power into the water at the top of the engine power curve, but this can make for an uncomfortable boat to steer. The boat will 'feel' underpropped as to go at any sort of normal pace will still require quite a high (and noisy) engine speed as power transfer is proportional to the cube of the shaft speed. Stopping in astern will also be particularly poor unless you rev the nuts off the engine. 

 

Consequently it is (usually) better to choose a bigger blade than the calc for peak power come up with. the engine will be technically over-propped but at normal cruising speed the engine will feel calmer and happier, and in astern stopping will be easier and sharper.  How much bigger, if at all, is a matter of taste and opinion. Two people can steer the same boat and one might think the blade is fine and the other might consider it over (or under) propped. 

 

Good point very well made. However I think that is muddying the waters somewhat for the OP. 

 

[MtB]

38 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

Good point very well made. However I think that is muddying the waters somewhat for the OP. 

 

 

I agree, quibbling about the blade on a £40k boat is rather pointless. As is quibbling about ANY fault thrown up by a survey. Boats throw up a continuous stream of faults, errors and breakdowns and constantly need large sums spending on them just to stand still on the maintenance front, so £500 to swap the blade is just background noise. 

1 hour ago, HannahDee said:

Which is their choice, but seems mad to me unless you have very deep pockets. I can't see the harm done in putting forward an offer, there do seem to be a lot of chancers selling 

 

I agree there is no harm at all to come from putting forward your offer, in a suitably polite manner. After all, the boat IS still for sale so *something* is putting off everyone who looks at it.

 

The truth could well be they have had an avalanche of offers of £30k, and might be inclined to accept one if by luck, your timing is right. 

[booke23]

27 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I agree, quibbling about the blade on a £40k boat is rather pointless. As is quibbling about ANY fault thrown up by a survey.

 

Really? It might be pointless if the seller accepts a really low offer but how likely is that in this market. Added up all these faults are all going to cost quite a bit to put right. It's very good for negotiating the price down. 

A cursory glance at the survey reveals: Potential new prop required - £500 + slip/crane (£500 in London) = £1000

                                                              Diesel central heating - £1000 + fitting, say £1300 all in

                                                              Inverter - £1400 + fitting, say £1700

 

So there's £4000 off the price before you even start negotiating! 

[Tony1]

 

Hi Hannah, just a heads up in case you weren't aware- the CRT rules about disposal of 'solid' waste from separating toilets (aka composting toilets) are changing at the end of the year, and unless you have a storage facility (probably on land) that will allow you to fully compost the solid waste, these toilets will not really be practicable. 

If you are CCing its going to be a real challenge finding enough space to store/compost waste- I've given up on the idea myself, and will be replacing my separating toilet (thankfully I only bought a cheapo model) with a cassette toilet- plus 2 or 3 spare cassettes, to allow more time in between having to visit elsan points. 

Some of the issues are mentioned in this thread:

 

 

Just one other quick thought- a quick search shows there are a couple of boats available that are about decade newer than this one, for similar money or less. Its a longish cruise to get a boat from the north to London, but it could save you a few grand. 

Also, a couple of thousand will have to be set aside to fix or replace all the things that go wrong (or just really annoy you) during the first 6-12 months aboard.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Tony1