HVO how do I get some?

[dmr]

35 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

And the suppliers try very hard to hide what the fuel source is... 😉

 

But like EVs, don't reject the good because it's not perfect. HVO does have its downsides (rainforest/crop sources, processing and transport) but it's still a lot better than burning fossil fuel for cases where EVs (or EBs) aren't a viable solution...

 

I note that Crown state that their HVO does not use palm oil, and meets some sort of standard for sustainability. Trouble is they will only deliver by Tanker with a 1000litre minimum order.

[IanD]

36 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I note that Crown state that their HVO does not use palm oil, and meets some sort of standard for sustainability. Trouble is they will only deliver by Tanker with a 1000litre minimum order.

Some claims to not use palm oil have turned out to be wrong, possibly because the actual end supplier they get the fuel from is being "economical with the truth" -- much talk about recycling used cooking oil and renewable oil sources, but skating over the fact that palm oil is one of the biggest sources.

 

Crown may be correct (which would be great), or may think they are but have had the wool cleverly pulled over their eyes (not so great)... 😉

Edited March 10, 2023 by IanD

[Stroudwater1]

It must say somewhere but are the boxes from Speedy reusable? 

[dmr]

43 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

It must say somewhere but are the boxes from Speedy reusable? 

 

A year or so I tried to get a box of HVO as I wanted to test a sample before getting 200litre drums. It proved impossible or at least riduculously expensive so I concluded that the boxes are "vapourware". I suspect a company has invented the fuel box and is trying to promote it, I phoned a couple of local suppliers lised on a website and they knew nothing about it. There was one place stocking them, I think Londonish, but unless you are local the delivery cost is prohibitive.

I realise that this has not answered your question, but if you can't get them it does not matter if they are re-usable.

There is a market for second hand 200litre drums on eBay, but its collection only rather than postage. 😀

[Stroudwater1]

52 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

A year or so I tried to get a box of HVO as I wanted to test a sample before getting 200litre drums. It proved impossible or at least riduculously expensive so I concluded that the boxes are "vapourware". I suspect a company has invented the fuel box and is trying to promote it, I phoned a couple of local suppliers lised on a website and they knew nothing about it. There was one place stocking them, I think Londonish, but unless you are local the delivery cost is prohibitive.

I realise that this has not answered your question, but if you can't get them it does not matter if they are re-usable.

There is a market for second hand 200litre drums on eBay, but its collection only rather than postage. 😀

Ah that’s interesting as I saw a vlog where a number were delivered for their boat. Must be an influencer☹️🤣 

[ditchcrawler]

17 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Ah that’s interesting as I saw a vlog where a number were delivered for their boat. Must be an influencer☹️🤣 

I think Spey had them delivered to the boat, this from an American publication UK Heritage ‘Narrowboat’ Craft Powered by Renewable Diesel – Advanced BioFuels USA

From the UK in Towpath Talk

 

[dmr]

I thought Spey gave up on their HVO experiment when getting HVO in boxes became the only option, as it was much too expensive.

The bloke who took Spey to London wrote a lovely blog (and I don't normally lioke that sort of thing) but I think he has now stopped.

 

My engine really liked HVO, and made a lot less smoke, I want to get some more but its not easy.

[ditchcrawler]

14 minutes ago, dmr said:

I thought Spey gave up on their HVO experiment when getting HVO in boxes became the only option, as it was much too expensive.

The bloke who took Spey to London wrote a lovely blog (and I don't normally lioke that sort of thing) but I think he has now stopped.

 

My engine really liked HVO, and made a lot less smoke, I want to get some more but its not easy.

I think your right, the problems over the past 12 moths have changed lots of things

 

[magnetman]

Michael Pinnock was running one of his Bolinders engines on HVO a while ago. Not sure if he is still doing so and my inner city boat doesn't use diesel so I did not ask if he was also retailing it. 

 

Similarly to the coal I quite like the smell of a clean diesel engine so would find the HVO thing a little discombobulating. 

 

Resistance to change.

[Up-Side-Down]

 

More than anything it's price that's working against the sale of HVO at the moment – currently £1.39/litre + VAT @ 5% as opposed to gas oil @ £0.83/litre + the VAT. That's the price for 'red' with duty @ £0.11/litre as opposed to road fuel that carries duty at £0.56/litre & VAT @ 20%.

 

So 'white' HVO is still costing close to £2.00/litre.

 

As long as you able to state (and sign a declaration) that you are legitimately using the fuel for propulsion purposes, Crown will send you a 1000 litre IBC. The cost of the IBC and carriage (it's effectively the standard pallet rate) works out at an additional £0.10/litre, although if you can return the IBC there should be a refund of around £40. Similar arrangements can be made for 205 litre drums. Otherwise if you are within the area of their distribution network (Beesley's in the Midlands, Speedy Fuels in the Home Counties and Crown in the Bury/Manchester area) 1000 litre+ deliveries by tanker are possible.

 

All in all getting hold of HVO on the inland waterways is currently nigh on impossible, especially if you have no means of handling an IBC. Please PM me if you want further, detailed information.

[peterboat]

30 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

 

More than anything it's price that's working against the sale of HVO at the moment – currently £1.39/litre + VAT @ 5% as opposed to gas oil @ £0.83/litre + the VAT. That's the price for 'red' with duty @ £0.11/litre as opposed to road fuel that carries duty at £0.56/litre & VAT @ 20%.

 

So 'white' HVO is still costing close to £2.00/litre.

 

As long as you able to state (and sign a declaration) that you are legitimately using the fuel for propulsion purposes, Crown will send you a 1000 litre IBC. The cost of the IBC and carriage (it's effectively the standard pallet rate) works out at an additional £0.10/litre, although if you can return the IBC there should be a refund of around £40. Similar arrangements can be made for 205 litre drums. Otherwise if you are within the area of their distribution network (Beesley's in the Midlands, Speedy Fuels in the Home Counties and Crown in the Bury/Manchester area) 1000 litre+ deliveries by tanker are possible.

 

All in all getting hold of HVO on the inland waterways is currently nigh on impossible, especially if you have no means of handling an IBC. Please PM me if you want further, detailed information.

I bought mine when it was  .79 pence a litre from Crown oils I bought a 1000 litres of white and red with a friend. I will be using the red forever in the generator I suspect 

[Steilsteven]

I recently tried to get red HVO from my regular supplier ( New Era Fuels ) all seemed to be going well until they came back to me saying that my local depot has stopped supplying it and had even got rid of their tank! I was then offered it in drums or boxes but she came back later to say that they've stopped doing those too.

I was then offered GTL as an alternative and eventually went for it, even though it is slightly worse from the co2 aspect than diesel it is very clean burning otherwise.

For anyone interested https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/natural-gas/gas-to-liquids.html

 

Keith

 

[Up-Side-Down]

31 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

I recently tried to get red HVO from my regular supplier ( New Era Fuels ) all seemed to be going well until they came back to me saying that my local depot has stopped supplying it and had even got rid of their tank! I was then offered it in drums or boxes but she came back later to say that they've stopped doing those too.

I was then offered GTL as an alternative and eventually went for it, even though it is slightly worse from the co2 aspect than diesel it is very clean burning otherwise.

For anyone interested https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/natural-gas/gas-to-liquids.html

 

Keith

 

 

You do appreciate that this is a fossil fuel; emissions sit mid way between gas oil and HVO and its Shell's way of pretending to be green whilst still peddling stuff from a bore hole.

[dmr]

4 hours ago, Steilsteven said:

I recently tried to get red HVO from my regular supplier ( New Era Fuels ) all seemed to be going well until they came back to me saying that my local depot has stopped supplying it and had even got rid of their tank! I was then offered it in drums or boxes but she came back later to say that they've stopped doing those too.

I was then offered GTL as an alternative and eventually went for it, even though it is slightly worse from the co2 aspect than diesel it is very clean burning otherwise.

For anyone interested https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/natural-gas/gas-to-liquids.html

 

Keith

 

 

I had the same experience with New Era. I suspect that because the use of red is so limited that many companies have decided its just not worth stocking it.

 

Then for boaters there is the issue (I think) that HVO should only be used for propulsion, not heating, whilst red should not be used for propulsion.

 

What did the FTL cost relative to diesel and HVO?

[Steilsteven]

18 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

 

You do appreciate that this is a fossil fuel; emissions sit mid way between gas oil and HVO and its Shell's way of pretending to be green whilst still peddling stuff from a bore hole.

Yes I'm fully aware, I very rarely do anything without thoroughly researching it first.

As they give full details of the production process they could hardly be described as pretending anything. 

The options were diesel or GTL or nothing. 

14 hours ago, dmr said:

 

I had the same experience with New Era. I suspect that because the use of red is so limited that many companies have decided its just not worth stocking it.

 

Then for boaters there is the issue (I think) that HVO should only be used for propulsion, not heating, whilst red should not be used for propulsion.

 

What did the FTL cost relative to diesel and HVO?

Yes I only recently discovered the propulsion only bit when in conversation with Jonathan Mosse, even though New Era had been happily supplying me red HVO for two years purely for heating/generating. Below Is Jonathan's email showing what we are up against. GTL is about the same price as HVO btw.

 

It's all got ridiculously complicated, Keith, as three quite separate things come into play:

 

1) The RTFO which is administered by DfT and spawns RTFCs in support of eligible biofuels

2) Fuel Duty which is administered by HMRC

3) VAT ditto

 

And this is the order I like to think of them in to avoid further confusion!

 

For propulsion in a commercial inland waterways vessel (see HMRC website for definition of 'inland waterways') HVO attracts i) two RTFCs currently valued at £0.25 each = £0.50/litre. It also attracts ii) duty @ £0.1114/litre and iii) VAT @ 5%. (when I was buying HVO a year ago RTFCs were worth £0.42 each which is another reason, alongside scarcity of feedstock, why the price has shot up).

 

For propulsion in a leisure inland waterways vessel it attracts i) two RTFCs currently valued at £0.25 each = £0.50/litre. It also attracts ii) duty @ approx £0.56/litre and iii) VAT @ 20%.

 

For domestic use (anything other than propulsion) it attracts i) £0.00 in RTFCs whether it be used in commercial or leisure vessels. It also attracts ii) duty @ £0.1114/litre and iii) VAT @ 5%.

 

However, every commercial vessel operating on the Thames is now powered by HVO and to my knowledge they all have some form of heating aboard – be that a diesel-fired central heating boiler (rapidly going out of service as, with HVO effectively burning hotter than MGO, the heat exchangers are burning out) Refleks-type stoves or auxiliary generators powering electric central heating boilers, cooking, lighting, etc. The tugs are crewed 24/7 so the crew are living aboard during the week. No one has yet shouted foul here, even though these vessels are back and forth past Westminster on a rather regular basis! This just serves to emphasise how crazy the situation is in my mind ..........

 

You might be interested to know that I finally persuaded Scottish Canals (SC – the Nav Authority) to stock HVO which they are now running all their road vehicles, plant and machinery on. They will also sell to boaters. If they tried to price the fuel as per my list above it would be a total nightmare so they are buying in DERV (white HVO) which carries the two RTFCs (as it's ostensibly for propulsion) + the full duty + VAT @ 20%.

 

I believe they're paying about £2.02/litre from Johnstone Oils (supplied by Crown) and selling to boaters at £2.16/litre. Simple but pricey!!

 

No doubt as clear as mud! 

 

BTW It's probably the first time I've written it all out in one go so I only hope I've got it right! Ironically, the 'body' would have remained buried (in effect what is happening on the Thames) if SC hadn't decided to do due diligence when contemplating stocking HVO and it was at that point that the differential between propulsion and domestic (DfT and DfBEIS!) came to light and, like a pebble thrown into a pond, the ripples have continued to ripple out killing the use of the fuel on the inland waterways stone dead.

 

Kind regards,

Jonathan