BMC 1500 Wiring and Electrics.

[Higgs]

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I do not think the connectors in your first link to are non crimp for the conductor part. The words say normal crimp and the heat shrink. I very much doubt heat shrink would stand the temperature needed to melt even low melt point solder and bond it to the conductors. These will require a  decent crimping tool to make a good joint

 

A far as the second link is concerned I  would have questions about what heat source is needed to get a good joint and the length of solder looks very short to me so it could be all too easy to only solder to one wire. If the two I would probably prefer the fist except I would do a spliced solder joint plus heat shrink tube, adhesive as it is to be a sea boat.

 

Just be aware things may not ba as easy as the vendors suggest so maybe buy a few and practice.

 

I may have missed some of your points. Those heat-shrink (similar) solder joints are in widespread use in the manufacture of wiring looms inside rail carriages. A heat gun at around 500c will do the job, if you don't linger on one spot. You have to move the gun around the joint. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

I may have missed some of your points. Those heat-shrink (similar) solder joints are in widespread use in the manufacture of wiring looms inside rail carriages. A heat gun at around 500c will do the job, if you don't linger on one spot. You have to move the gun around the joint.

 

One point is that TNLI is on his boat in a pub car park so it is questionable if he has the facilities to run a heat gun. He will probably have to resort to a blow torch and that will take practice. In my view  a poor solder joint is just as bad as a poor crimp joint, and with insufficient heat the copper may well conduct the heat away so the solder does not bond with the conductors even though the heat shrink had shrunk. I am sure a heat gun would be the most effective way..

[Higgs]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

One point is that TNLI is on his boat in a pub car park so it is questionable if he has the facilities to run a heat gun. He will probably have to resort to a blow torch and that will take practice. In my view  a poor solder joint is just as bad as a poor crimp joint, and with insufficient heat the copper may well conduct the heat away so the solder does not bond with the conductors even though the heat shrink had shrunk. I am sure a heat gun would be the most effective way..

 

Yep. Not sure I'd fancy trying it with a flame. I've done quite a few heat-shrink solder joints, and it always amazed me that the heat-shrink could take the heat. But only if you don't linger. 

 

 

[TNLI]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I do not think the connectors in your first link to are non crimp for the conductor part. The words say normal crimp and the heat shrink. I very much doubt heat shrink would stand the temperature needed to melt even low melt point solder and bond it to the conductors. These will require a  decent crimping tool to make a good joint

 

A far as the second link is concerned I  would have questions about what heat source is needed to get a good joint and the length of solder looks very short to me so it could be all too easy to only solder to one wire. If the two I would probably prefer the fist except I would do a spliced solder joint plus heat shrink tube, adhesive as it is to be a sea boat.

 

Just be aware things may not ba as easy as the vendors suggest so maybe buy a few and practice.

Yep, the first link says non crimp in the title, and then says crimp in the description, no wonder they had so many complaints. I've used the second type for some months, and they are real good. Although you could use a simple lighter, or expensive main heat gun, I just use a small gas torch made by Colour Works from kitchen craft, and that little gas torch is a real good one that you can refill from a normal lighter refill can. Oddly enough I didn't think they contained enough low temp solder and that the heat shrink part would burn through. I was wrong, they really do have enough solder and work very well, although I always use a secondary shrink wrap cover. They are now my standard way of connecting low power wires together. 

  I'm looking for an electronic auto reset fuse at present, but forgot what they are called, so will ask a friend in the local Hamsters club.

[TNLI]

2 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

Yep. Not sure I'd fancy trying it with a flame. I've done quite a few heat-shrink solder joints, and it always amazed me that the heat-shrink could take the heat. But only if you don't linger. 

 

 

My small gas torch can easily do the job, you just have to keep waving it around as it's a tad hotter than a heat gun. I do not have a heat gun, or even 230V power cable to my boat. My inverter would murder the battery if I even thought about using one, although they are the correct tool to use. When I build a boat, I use the same tools that I take with me, so using shore based tools makes no sense. That way if I have to repair the boat at sea or even up a canal, I will have the tools with me. The gas torch is a pain from the boat design point of view as I don't use gas bottles, but Butane is still heavier than air, so I will be making a very small drained and sealed gas locker at the very stern, just for the torch refills and bottles of acetone. I also use my little torch to pre heat a primus stove, rather than fiddling about with Meth's as a pre heater.

 

poly fuse resettable | eBay  (Lots of different stealers). I've ordered a pair of 2A ones to test, BUT they don't seem to make lower voltage ones, and I will need to read up on what they do if the voltage is below 16V. All the rage with the local Hamsters and cheaper than I thought they were.

 

I found the type of cheap fuse I'm looking for:

Resettable fuse - Wikipedia

Edited November 27, 2021 by TNLI

[Higgs]

22 minutes ago, TNLI said:

My small gas torch can easily do the job, you just have to keep waving it around as it's a tad hotter than a heat gun. I do not have a heat gun, or even 230V power cable to my boat. My inverter would murder the battery if I even thought about using one, although they are the correct too to use. When I build a boat, I use the same tools that I take with me, so using shore based tools makes no sense. That way if I have to repair the boat at sea or even up a canal, I will have the tools with me. The gas torch is a pain from the boat design point of view as I don't use gas bottles, but Butane is still heavier than air, so I will be making a very small drained and sealed gas locker at the very stern, just for the torch refills and bottles of acetone. I also use my little torch to pre heat a primus stove, rather than fiddling about with Meth's as a pre heater.

 

poly fuse resettable | eBay  (Lots of different stealers). I've ordered a pair of 2A ones to test.

 

I found the type of cheap fuse I'm looking for:

Resettable fuse - Wikipedia

 

 

It's useful, if you can make the gas torch work for you. But those fuses don't seem to be what I imagined you want. Aren't you looking for a manual reset type. Those in the photo will reset automatically, I presume heat opens, and closes on cooling. 

 

Circuit Breaker Resettable Standard Blade Trip Fuse Truck Marine Manual Reset | eBay    This kind alternative, if you could find a low enough current range. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Higgs

[TNLI]

6 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

It's useful, if you can make the gas torch work for you. But those fuses don't seem to be what I imagined you want. Aren't you looking for a manual reset type. Those in the photo will reset automatically, I presume heat opens, and closes on cooling. 

 

Circuit Breaker Resettable Standard Blade Trip Fuse Truck Marine Manual Reset | eBay    This kind alternative, if you could find a low enough current range. 

 

6 hours ago, Higgs said:

 

It's useful, if you can make the gas torch work for you. But those fuses don't seem to be what I imagined you want. Aren't you looking for a manual reset type. Those in the photo will reset automatically, I presume heat opens, and closes on cooling. 

 

Circuit Breaker Resettable Standard Blade Trip Fuse Truck Marine Manual Reset | eBay    This kind alternative, if you could find a low enough current range. 

The Poly fuses cost 1.50 each and they are electronic and don't use heat just charge, BUT they take a while before they reset themselves. Not seen the ones in your link before, and I might buy a few as I do use that type of fuse holder.

 

PSD-Fundamentals (seattleu.edu)

Edited November 27, 2021 by TNLI

[TNLI]

Alternator Fits FORD MG 280724 280725 280795 280809 280933 282685 283519 | eBay

 

Just found that one and they do make both a left and right hand version, (I think right hand was OEM fit). 75A is a pretty good upgrade from the original 36 or 55A Lucas alternator. No idea if it fits or if it's a case of you, get what you pay for, but it might make a good spare.

 

This appears similar to the one I have at present:

FOR 1.5 1.8 BMC DIESEL MARINE CANAL BOAT etc BRAND NEW UPGRADE 55AMP ALTERNATOR | eBay

 

I'm taking it apart at present as the stern section is full of some type of blackened fibre.

 

Now for the question, although I have found out how to wire the 3 pin Lucas plug that has 2 big common positive battery feeds and one warning light normal spade terminal, no real idea of where the positive post was meant to go, or if it is in fact a RPM feed. Anyone got a diagram ??

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

58 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Now for the question, although I have found out how to wire the 3 pin Lucas plug that has 2 big common positive battery feeds and one warning light normal spade terminal, no real idea of where the positive post was meant to go, or if it is in fact a RPM feed. Anyone got a diagram ??

 

What diameter is the stud connection you are asking about and what letters are cast on the case beside it?

I you are using the 9mm blade connections for the positive you would be well advise to split the charging cable and connect to both of them, especially it its more than about a 35 amp alternator.

 

If one of the stud terminals has "+" or "B" beside it and/or the stud is about 6mm diameter than its probably the main positive. Rev counter pulse terminals are usually thinner.

 

 

[TNLI]

58 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

What diameter is the stud connection you are asking about and what letters are cast on the case beside it?

I you are using the 9mm blade connections for the positive you would be well advise to split the charging cable and connect to both of them, especially it its more than about a 35 amp alternator.

 

If one of the stud terminals has "+" or "B" beside it and/or the stud is about 6mm diameter than its probably the main positive. Rev counter pulse terminals are usually thinner.

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply,

  OK, just found that the larger threaded terminal has a B+ next to it, and the smaller threaded one has a W, (Or M), next to it. The B terminal also has a single spade socket next to it. There is also a third unmarked threaded earth terminal that is not insulated from the case, (the other 2 are).

 

Just found this picture which does show those connections correctly. I've got the Lucas A127 type, BUT it does have the extra spade socket next to the B+ terminal that is not marked in the picture.

  

Edited January 2, 2022 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

Looks like one of my diagrams.

 

A clear photo is worth more than many words or a generic diagram but if that blade is inside a small square hole then it is for an automotive radio suppressor. You may need one as i think yours is a GRP boat with wooden bulkheads so nothing to stop radiated RF from the alternator, if you want to use a car type radio when running. Its a try it and see if you need one situation.

[TNLI]

Thanks, it is, so it appears one of the capacitors was missing. I did have one fitted across the B+ terminal.

 

My lifeboat has an alloy hull, but the water tight bulkheads and engine cover are wood.

Edited January 2, 2022 by TNLI

[TNLI]

Thanks to Tony I now know how to wire my present alternator, BUT there is one last question about a spare part that might fit. So is this a potential candidate from a Fleabay seller in the UK:

 

LUCAS A127 TYPE ALTERNATOR *RIGHT HAND* RH 12V 75AMP | eBay

 

The other one I'm looking at is this 55A one that has exactly the same fittings on the rear and looks better than the one above:

 

Alternator Fits FORD MG 280724 280725 280795 280809 280933 282685 283519 | eBay

Edited January 3, 2022 by TNLI

[TNLI]

UMM, how do I wire the oil pressure and coolant alarm lights to the oil pressure and temp sensors, (New ones were included with the all purpose El-cheapo panel I used ?? One some engine the sensors have a second spade terminal, on others you can just join the wires or heaven forbid use a small black box to trigger the alarm system.

 

Anyone know if a Perkins alternator like this upgrade will fit a BMC 1500, as the one from Amazingzone is of interest to me, cos I've been given a free 100 quid card by L&G that I want to waste.

 

 

12V 70A LUCAS TYPE A127 ALTERNATOR PERKINS ROVER JCB MASSEY ALT16067 WOOD AUTO : Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

Edited January 5, 2022 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

On 03/01/2022 at 05:15, TNLI said:

Thanks to Tony I now know how to wire my present alternator, BUT there is one last question about a spare part that might fit. So is this a potential candidate from a Fleabay seller in the UK:

 

LUCAS A127 TYPE ALTERNATOR *RIGHT HAND* RH 12V 75AMP | eBay

 

The other one I'm looking at is this 55A one that has exactly the same fittings on the rear and looks better than the one above:

 

Alternator Fits FORD MG 280724 280725 280795 280809 280933 282685 283519 | eBay

 

I think both are A127clones so will bolt straight on once you have adjusted the sliding bush in the rear bracket. I can't say anything about the cable terminals.

[TNLI]

Thanks Tony, alas the 2 in Amazingzone don't seem to have an RPM or even positive terminal, so are no good in wiring terms.

 

They seem to be the ACR version in your picture set.

 

Correction, the one below does have the correct terminals, I only just noticed they are visible in the side view.

 

12V 70A LUCAS TYPE A127 ALTERNATOR PERKINS ROVER JCB MASSEY ALT16067 WOOD AUTO : Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

Edited January 5, 2022 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, TNLI said:

UMM, how do I wire the oil pressure and coolant alarm lights to the oil pressure and temp sensors, (New ones were included with the all purpose El-cheapo panel I used ?? One some engine the sensors have a second spade terminal, on others you can just join the wires or heaven forbid use a small black box to trigger the alarm system.

 

Anyone know if a Perkins alternator like this upgrade will fit a BMC 1500, as the one from Amazingzone is of interest to me, cos I've been given a free 100 quid card by L&G that I want to waste.

 

 

12V 70A LUCAS TYPE A127 ALTERNATOR PERKINS ROVER JCB MASSEY ALT16067 WOOD AUTO : Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

 

Alternator - still looks like an A127 clone to me, see above, but most alternators from similar engines will fit the mounting points.

 

Sensors/warning lights. Gauges need a sensor while warning lamps need a switch screwed into the engine. Some sender units combine both with two terminal for earth  return or three terminals insulated return systems. If you do not have a combined sender - switch then you need to fit both. For oil pressure you can get T pieces (see ASAP supplies) but for coolant temperature you may have to fit a bolt on switch as used on water cooled exhausts, maybe fit it on the top hose.

On 02/01/2022 at 23:12, TNLI said:

Thanks, it is, so it appears one of the capacitors was missing. I did have one fitted across the B+ terminal.

 

My lifeboat has an alloy hull, but the water tight bulkheads and engine cover are wood.

 

Wooden bulkheads will not do much t stop RF interference so for the suppressor from you old alternator to the new one.

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Thanks Tony, alas the 2 in Amazingzone don't seem to have an RPM or even positive terminal, so are no good in wiring terms.

 

They seem to be the ACR version in your picture set.

 

Saw 2 from Ebay and one form Amazon. As the Amazon one did not give an image of the back of the alternator I don't know what terminals it has and as the images given seem to be of different machines I would avoid it. A phase tap to drive a rev counter is easily fitted and as long s you use both large spades for the Main output as I explained before it should be perfectly serviceable if you keep the blades tight.

[TNLI]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Saw 2 from Ebay and one form Amazon. As the Amazon one did not give an image of the back of the alternator I don't know what terminals it has and as the images given seem to be of different machines I would avoid it. A phase tap to drive a rev counter is easily fitted and as long s you use both large spades for the Main output as I explained before it should be perfectly serviceable if you keep the blades tight.

If you look on the left side pictures the one second from the bottom shows an insulated black positive sticking out of the stern. Can't see a normal positive and does anyone know how to ask a seller in Amazingzone a question ?? I can only find the indirect contact method ??

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, TNLI said:

If you look on the left side pictures the one second from the bottom shows an insulated black positive sticking out of the stern. Can't see a normal positive and does anyone know how to ask a seller in Amazingzone a question ?? I can only find the indirect contact method ??

 

Without a proper rear end photo you can't tell if the black insulation is on a B+ or a W terminal.

 

I think Wood Auto may have their own website.

[TNLI]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Without a proper rear end photo you can't tell if the black insulation is on a B+ or a W terminal.

 

I think Wood Auto may have their own website.

Took a look at that site, but it has less pictures than Amazon, so ordered it along with what I hope is the correct pulley. Can't get the back cover off the prent one which I will keep as a spare as my 4mm ring socket went AWOL some months ago and it will be a few more days before I get a replacement.

  Your alternator picture set does show the A127 supposed to have a positive B+ terminal and an RPM sense W one, and the web site does say it has a W terminal along with a picture of the standard Lucas plug that is in the post. Kind of suprised that none of the cheaper alternators are sold with RF or other interference blockers, (They can be a simple capacitor or combination of a capacitor and small coil to make a proper job filter unit). The new ones arrived today and are made in France, or at least that is what the far Eastern folks are stamping on the back!

 

[Tony Brooks]

44 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Took a look at that site, but it has less pictures than Amazon, so ordered it along with what I hope is the correct pulley. Can't get the back cover off the prent one which I will keep as a spare as my 4mm ring socket went AWOL some months ago and it will be a few more days before I get a replacement.

  Your alternator picture set does show the A127 supposed to have a positive B+ terminal and an RPM sense W one, and the web site does say it has a W terminal along with a picture of the standard Lucas plug that is in the post. Kind of suprised that none of the cheaper alternators are sold with RF or other interference blockers, (They can be a simple capacitor or combination of a capacitor and small coil to make a proper job filter unit). The new ones arrived today and are made in France, or at least that is what the far Eastern folks are stamping on the back!

 

OK, the talk of a back cover means it is probably an old ACR if the back cover is maybe 2" deep, If it is a lot shallower It is a later version. Luckily the A127s have the same mounting dimensions with that adjustable rear bush.

 

A127s may or may not have a W terminal, it depends upon the model number. I have not seen one without a B+ stud. Some have a B- stud but I suspect (don't know for sure) they are not proper insulated return machines. I think some also have a D+ (W/L) stud. All in addition to the 3 blade connectors. It all depends upon the part number.

 

The suppressor for the alternator is just a capacitor, no need for a coil (inductor) in this application. Those with inductors are typically fitted into the radio power supply but  suppose they could also go into the supply to any piece of equipment that would put RF interference on the power leads.