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Anyone passing Barrowford Locks?


LadyG

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28 minutes ago, Chagall said:

No, I didn't  "read that wrong" you often complain about C&RT when you are moored on their services time and time again, even if stoppages dictate limited movement, but still you seem to expect privileges. You, and admittedly many others, wont pay for a winter mooring which might bring much needed funds.  I suggested you might stop complaining and at the same time to stop complaining that you dont get the help you want.   People have offered it but it was refused.  Fair enough, your choice but maybe stop bitching and naming. Turns out those folk may have been right. 

I don't want a winter mooring, I like to move, though I thought I might spend my winter in the Skipton area, possibly paying for a mooring, for two months.

If I wanted to give the CRT more money I would donate, no need to give them money for mooring on a muddytowpath as some do. I understand many do that to avoid moving every 14 days. They may well live in bricks and mortar, and use the cc as a method of avoiding paying marina fees, moving the boat every 14 days.

It's a bit of a grey area, saying you must move at least every 14 days, as per our interpretation of the Law, then waiving those very Ts and Cs in exchange for cash!

I don't understand why people think paying a marina, a commercial business is going to help anyone. The more I spend on the canals, the less time I will stay, there is no infinite money pit to hand over to the CRT

I'd rather give my money to a charity of my choice, this "Charitable Organisation" system is a government inspired gadget. 

If people really want to give money direct to the CRT, they should keep their boat on the CRT Waterside moorings, or just donate more than they need to do, I bet not many here send them significant extra payments every year. 

Edited by LadyG
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3 minutes ago, haggis said:

........ but also provide the "free" stuff which  we as boaters seem to look on as our right. I am thinking here of rubbish collection, water supplies, elsan, toilets and other facilities which are all free to boaters.  In this day and age, I think the licence fee we pay is pretty low and if we as boaters expect a better degree of maintenance we should pay for it. 

 

As had been said many times, C&RT have the right (written in law) to charge for any services in addition to the availability of the navigation ie, moorings, waste disposal, provision of water etc etc. They have chosen not to do so, but things can easily change when they need more money if the grant is not renewed.

 

That would upset boaters.

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1 hour ago, Jim Riley said:

So, exactly what is the problem if LG is staying by the services block? It's not as if she is restricting access to passing boats, hogging the waterpoint etc. If she can't move she can't move to drop off shit and pick up water. It's a perfectly sensible move apart from giving opportunity for po faced pedants to be picky. 

 

I don't have a problem with anyone overstaying by services when there's closures preventing them from moving. I just couldn't understand why such a relatively simple problem hasn't been fixed after all this time. I'm disappointed that C&RT aren't happy with her overstaying in such circumstances. I think it's a blinking cheek expecting people to shuffle up and down from stoppage to stoppage. My own experience of C&RT Yorkshire suggests they would have no issue and my experience with C&RT North West suggests they would be sympathetic too, although it's understandable they won't provide electric for a welder.

 

Lady G has had lots of good advice from people who know how the deal with such issues but seems to not want a solution just yet. No problem but me thinks that location has a what3words address like ///molehill.mountain.drama

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8 minutes ago, Midnight said:

 

I don't have a problem with anyone overstaying by services when there's closures preventing them from moving. I just couldn't understand why such a relatively simple problem hasn't been fixed after all this time. I'm disappointed that C&RT aren't happy with her overstaying in such circumstances. I think it's a blinking cheek expecting people to shuffle up and down from stoppage to stoppage. My own experience of C&RT Yorkshire suggests they would have no issue and my experience with C&RT North West suggests they would be sympathetic too, although it's understandable they won't provide electric for a welder.

 

Lady G has had lots of good advice from people who know how the deal with such issues but seems to not want a solution just yet. No problem but me thinks that location has a what3words address like ///molehill.mountain.drama

Yes, well funnily enough I have never had any problem with moving, I usually move a few miles every week, never had a real winter cc, due to being in a marina, or locked down by government decree, and now by the hand of God. 

I can't quite cope with too much conflicting advice from forumites on the technicalities of repairs when the guys on the ground are the ones who are going to do the job. Not surprisingly much of the advice is the same.... its a simple job, why is it not sorted, well nothing more I can say, other than, that was my first thought too, lol. 

No need to say any more, except Happy New Year, may you all have a untroubled year, boating and in all ways. 🎉

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13 minutes ago, haggis said:

You have said the same thing several times since you became a boater and how the work should be done "properly". I am sure that C & RT would also like to do every job "properly" but they just don't have the funds to do that.  They have to cut corners and hope that what they do will hold the 200+ year old system working for a bit longer. In my view, they need to raise the licence fees, by an amount which would give them funds to not only maintain the canals themselves but also provide the "free" stuff which  we as boaters seem to look on as our right. I am thinking here of rubbish collection, water supplies, elsan, toilets and other facilities which are all free to boaters.  In this day and age, I think the licence fee we pay is pretty low and if we as boaters expect a better degree of maintenance we should pay for it. 

Just adding a bit in response to your question of how you taking a marina mooring would help C&RT. marinas (uness they are one of the ones where you don't need a licence) make a payment to C&RT based on how many places they have for boats. 

haggis

 

Not arguing that license fees are pretty low compared to off-water living costs and in view of what boaters (should!) get for their money, but remember that license fees only account for about a quarter of CARTs income. Looking at previous estimates for maintenance backlogs my guess is that CART really need at least 50% more income than they have today (roughly an extra £100M per year) to get the system back into some semblance of reasonable condition, and if this all came from license fees they would have to treble, which I'm pretty sure would be unaffordable for a lot of boaters. Another way to look at this is that any affordable increase in license fees wouldn't give CART enough money to solve their problems...

 

I suspect they'll have to do what was suggested earlier and go to some kind of more graduated fee structure linked to size/age/value of boats, so that people who own big new expensive boats pay (a lot) more and people who own small old cheap boats pay (a bit) less, in the meantime increasing the total take from the license fee. This will undoubtedly cause a lot of screaming and outrage from the "losers", but let's face it -- if you can afford £200k or more for a nice new boat, you can afford several times the current license fee.

 

But even if CART did this I suspect they'd find it difficult to bring in double the current license fee income, so they need to get more money from other sources too.

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42 minutes ago, haggis said:

You have said the same thing several times since you became a boater and how the work should be done "properly". I am sure that C & RT would also like to do every job "properly" but they just don't have the funds to do that.  They have to cut corners and hope that what they do will hold the 200+ year old system working for a bit longer. In my view, they need to raise the licence fees, by an amount which would give them funds to not only maintain the canals themselves but also provide the "free" stuff which  we as boaters seem to look on as our right. I am thinking here of rubbish collection, water supplies, elsan, toilets and other facilities which are all free to boaters.  In this day and age, I think the licence fee we pay is pretty low and if we as boaters expect a better degree of maintenance we should pay for it. 

Just adding a bit in response to your question of how you taking a marina mooring would help C&RT. marinas (uness they are one of the ones where you don't need a licence) make a payment to C&RT based on how many places they have for boats. 

haggis

But I'm on a budget, if costs are raised significantly I will just sell the boat, I'm thinking of doing that anyway, unless I can get back to my original plan of a bit of travel and a bit of wildlife watching, visiting museums and parts of the country I don't know well.

I give it another six months, and then might well sell up. Ive spent the last few weeks looking at property online: retirement homes, they have communal laundries, which for some reason greatly appeals, plus some have conservatories,  I have yet to find one with a pool. 

 

Edited by LadyG
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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

 

But even if CART did this I suspect they'd find it difficult to bring in double the current license fee income, so they need to get more money from other sources too.

I agree that they need to get more money from various sources but getting more from licence fees would be a help . Not sure that the fees should be linked to the age of a boat though 🙂 

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

But I'm on a budget, if costs are raised significantly I will just sell the boat, I'm thinking of doing that anyway, unless I can get back to my original plan of a bit of travel and a bit of wildlife watching, visiting museums and parts of the country I don't know well. I give it another six months, and then decide about selling up. 

I don't think you are alone in being on a budget! Most of us are, even C & RT 🙂 

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20 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Ive spent the last few weeks looking at property online: retirement homes, they have communal laundries, which for some reason greatly appeals, plus some have conservatories,  I have yet to find one with a pool. 

 

Noooo, not a good idea, you wouldn't like Nurse Ratched. 

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28 minutes ago, haggis said:

I agree that they need to get more money from various sources but getting more from licence fees would be a help . Not sure that the fees should be linked to the age of a boat though 🙂 

I don't think you are alone in being on a budget! Most of us are, even C & RT 🙂 

 

More from license fees would help and I think CART should do this, and try and get more income from other sources -- for example things like water supply, no doubt customers will complain but I suspect many are paying fees that have changed very little over many years and are actually being undercharged since other supplies have gone up by a lot more.

 

There's going to be pain all round but the simple fact is that CART's income isn't big enough to maintain the system properly, so either everyone (all income sources) is going to have to pay more (unless the government shakes their magical money tree, after all £100M/year is negligible compared to everything else they've spaffed up the wall) or CART will be faced with having to close down less-used and expensive-to-maintain canals -- I expect the HNC and Rochdale would be the first victims, which would be a great shame... 😞

 

Not the age, the value, on the principle that those with the deepest pockets should pay the most (e.g. me later this year) and those less well off (e.g. LadyG) should pay the least. Generally speaking new boats are worth more and old ones less, but there are of course exceptions... 😉

Edited by IanD
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37 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Not arguing that license fees are pretty low compared to off-water living costs and in view of what boaters (should!) get for their money, but remember that license fees only account for about a quarter of CARTs income. Looking at previous estimates for maintenance backlogs my guess is that CART really need at least 50% more income than they have today (roughly an extra £100M per year) to get the system back into some semblance of reasonable condition, and if this all came from license fees they would have to treble, which I'm pretty sure would be unaffordable for a lot of boaters. Another way to look at this is that any affordable increase in license fees wouldn't give CART enough money to solve their problems...

 

 

But even if CART did this I suspect they'd find it difficult to bring in double the current license fee income, so they need to get more money from other sources too.

In business speak I think we mostly agree the CRT business model is fundamentally flawed: insufficient income to pay for the ageing infrastructure.

The government don't want to subsidise it, it does not generate votes. 

There is the possibility of some sort of London Rating, which might raise a million or two, but I understand that the existing facilities are insufficient for the number if boaters, so in one way, they would be sort of saying we treat these guys different to anyone else, but these LBs would be demanding better facilities, which would soon eat up that few million, too messy. 

I don't know what the answer is, but if I were " CRT senior management", I'd be looking for another job, and then hand the contract back to the government. If they fail to meet targets, which is easy enough, what can the Government do, except re write the contract and replace the management? 

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33 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Noooo, not a good idea, you wouldn't like Nurse Ratched. 

Not nursing homes, you have your own place, front door, plus  a few communal facilities, and the big thing guys, it's leasehold, costs you less when you are older, which happens to us all eventually. Of course your money is eventually lost to pay dividends etc, but it fits the mantra, "we come into the world with nothing and leave with nothing" 

Edited by LadyG
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4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Not nursing homes, you have your own place, front door, plus  a few communal facilities, and the big thing guys, it's leasehold, costs you less when you are older, which happens to us all eventually. Of course your money is eventually lost to pay dividends etc, but it fits the mantra, "we come into the world with nothing and leave with nothing" 

I think my parents moved in to something similar, they both got good attendance at their funerals, the other residents got a good feed, well dainty sandwiches and drinks anyway, I thought it was all very pleasant, as funerals go. 

 

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5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Not nursing homes, you have your own place, front door, plus  a few communal facilities, and the big thing guys, it's leasehold, costs you less when you are older, which happens to us all eventually. Of course your money is eventually lost to pay dividends etc, but it, fits the mantra, "we come into the world with nothing and leave with nothing" 

 

Maybe you could consider 'sheltered accomodation', Mother in law got to the stage where she was stuggling to 'live' but didn't want to give up her independance, council provided a small (detached) bungalow (own front door and back door) and you could do as much as you wanted, but if you wanted the bin emptying or shopping fetched just 'pulled a string' and the warden came to assist.

Community centre with a big hall, with Bingo, sing songs etc on an almost daily basis - go if you want, don't if you don't.

Seemed ideal for those with a "limited budget", cost less than running a NB !

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59 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Not arguing that license fees are pretty low compared to off-water living costs and in view of what boaters (should!) get for their money, but remember that license fees only account for about a quarter of CARTs income. Looking at previous estimates for maintenance backlogs my guess is that CART really need at least 50% more income than they have today (roughly an extra £100M per year) to get the system back into some semblance of reasonable condition, and if this all came from license fees they would have to treble, which I'm pretty sure would be unaffordable for a lot of boaters. Another way to look at this is that any affordable increase in license fees wouldn't give CART enough money to solve their problems...

 

I suspect they'll have to do what was suggested earlier and go to some kind of more graduated fee structure linked to size/age/value of boats, so that people who own big new expensive boats pay (a lot) more and people who own small old cheap boats pay (a bit) less, in the meantime increasing the total take from the license fee. This will undoubtedly cause a lot of screaming and outrage from the "losers", but let's face it -- if you can afford £200k or more for a nice new boat, you can afford several times the current license fee.

 

But even if CART did this I suspect they'd find it difficult to bring in double the current license fee income, so they need to get more money from other sources too.

Basing the annual licence fee on value is unlikely to be viable or well respected - see rates/council tax. Firstly, it is one of the most expensive taxes to administer - this was recognised way back in in the 70's when there was a Royal Commission looking at alternatives, but a turf war inside government resulted in no significance change (the cheapest option was to replace rates with a local income tax, using the tax assessments provided via the tax people).

 

To do something similar with boat licences you would have to have a foolproof method of determining the value of a boat. What would not work is to allow self assessment - all boat owners would suddenly discover that they have boats worth next to nothing!

 

In another context I have spent a lot of time trying to devise schemes that balance between the ability to pay and the cost of a service and I can tell you it is an insurmountable task! 

 

Even 'age' is not without its difficulties as some boats are in the water for several years before being finished. 

 

Length and/or beam is one of the harder options to fiddle - even so I bet most of us have fenderless boats when it comes to stating the length for licencing purposes!

 

As for charging for individual services it is unlikely that most could show a profit. One of the problems with eg Pump outs and laundry machines is that the cost of maintaining them, especially in an unsupervised context, outweighs the income. 

 

Rough and ready though it may be, the present arrangement is probably about as good as it gets.

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17 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Basing the annual licence fee on value is unlikely to be viable or well respected - see rates/council tax. Firstly, it is one of the most expensive taxes to administer - this was recognised way back in in the 70's when there was a Royal Commission looking at alternatives, but a turf war inside government resulted in no significance change (the cheapest option was to replace rates with a local income tax, using the tax assessments provided via the tax people).

 

To do something similar with boat licences you would have to have a foolproof method of determining the value of a boat. What would not work is to allow self assessment - all boat owners would suddenly discover that they have boats worth next to nothing!

 

In another context I have spent a lot of time trying to devise schemes that balance between the ability to pay and the cost of a service and I can tell you it is an insurmountable task! 

 

Even 'age' is not without its difficulties as some boats are in the water for several years before being finished. 

 

Length and/or beam is one of the harder options to fiddle - even so I bet most of us have fenderless boats when it comes to stating the length for licencing purposes!

 

As for charging for individual services it is unlikely that most could show a profit. One of the problems with eg Pump outs and laundry machines is that the cost of maintaining them, especially in an unsupervised context, outweighs the income. 

 

Rough and ready though it may be, the present arrangement is probably about as good as it gets.

Length/beam is -- as you say -- easier to administer and harder to fiddle than value, and I was assuming that this would be done too. The problem with *only* using this is that (for example) older/poorer people in 70' boats would see a huge fee increase which they couldn't afford to pay, and the well-off in expensive boats who could afford today more wouldn't.

 

Linking payments to boat/house value isn't perfect but many countries manage to make it work for local taxes, and it is a lot more redistributive than a flat rate. Just because it's harder to do doesn't mean it should be rejected immediately...

Edited by IanD
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2 hours ago, LadyG said:

But I'm on a budget, if costs are raised significantly I will just sell the boat, I'm thinking of doing that anyway, unless I can get back to my original plan of a bit of travel and a bit of wildlife watching, visiting museums and parts of the country I don't know well.

I give it another six months, and then might well sell up. Ive spent the last few weeks looking at property online: retirement homes, they have communal laundries, which for some reason greatly appeals, plus some have conservatories,  I have yet to find one with a pool. 

 

Try looking at Anchor Housing, its normal rented housing for over 55s with just a warden to sort out the problems. Nothing like a nursing home or sheltered housing and far cheaper than McCarthy and Stone type flats.

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The cynic in me suggests the usual manipulation and down garden paths this time! 

 

If you dont like living cheek by jowl in a marina then think of the horror of not being able to move away from an obnoxious and very deaf neighbour. You have the home already, admit defeat for CCing throughout the year and just travel in the summer?   

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5 minutes ago, Chagall said:

The cynic in me suggests the usual manipulation and down garden paths this time! 

 

If you dont like living cheek by jowl in a marina then think of the horror of not being able to move away from an obnoxious and very deaf neighbour. You have the home already, admit defeat for CCing throughout the year and just travel in the summer?   

 

Yes you ol' cynic, you! 

 

An even better idea might be to take a CRT on-line mooring and stay out on the cut. Then not 'cheek-by-jowl', and LadyG can cruise when she likes and hunker down when she likes. Best of both. 

 

Cue a paragraph or three of reasons why not... :giggles:

 

 

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4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yes you ol' cynic, you! 

 

An even better idea might be to take a CRT on-line mooring and stay out on the cut. Then not 'cheek-by-jowl', and LadyG can cruise when she likes and hunker down when she likes. Best of both. 

 

Cue a paragraph or three of reasons why not... :giggles:

 

 

Hmm...but most CRT online moorings are not residential and the Lady likes to stay legal!    A small marina for the winter has all the advantages with the option to break out now and then. 

 

With careful planning its feasible to change the marina from time to time and may eventually find one where she might be happy with the neighbours... possibly! 

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3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

More from license fees would help and I think CART should do this, and try and get more income from other sources -- for example things like water supply, no doubt customers will complain but I suspect many are paying fees that have changed very little over many years and are actually being undercharged since other supplies have gone up by a lot more.

 

There's going to be pain all round but the simple fact is that CART's income isn't big enough to maintain the system properly, so either everyone (all income sources) is going to have to pay more (unless the government shakes their magical money tree, after all £100M/year is negligible compared to everything else they've spaffed up the wall) or CART will be faced with having to close down less-used and expensive-to-maintain canals -- I expect the HNC and Rochdale would be the first victims, which would be a great shame... 😞

 

Not the age, the value, on the principle that those with the deepest pockets should pay the most (e.g. me later this year) and those less well off (e.g. LadyG) should pay the least. Generally speaking new boats are worth more and old ones less, but there are of course exceptions... 😉

The idea of means tested licencing is a non starter, the idea that 'friends' are going to fork out an increasing amount per annum is a non starter. My boat is say 20 years old, and 57ft long, but the value today is more than it was three years ago, market forces, upgrades etc. it may be a lot more than some rusty old bucket but a lot less than a smart boat like Delhi. So valuation is a non starter.

In one way people with deep pockets will be paying more per boat than the others, using marinas, and their facilities, I was in a swish marina a few months ago, most of the boats were pretty smart, leisure boaters. So these higher income guys are sustaining the local economy, eating out etc. You can't ask them for more on the basis they can probably afford it. Costs are expected to rise in line with inflation, any unexpected hike is likely to reduce enthusiasm, and income from licences. 

I tend to think IanD is right, though I would assume there is still a cost in mothballing, but there will still be some maintenance and some income from water. The selling off of assets which can generate income is also tricky, the CRT could, in theory lease more land for housing, but its a specialist subject area. 

Edited by LadyG
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1 hour ago, Chagall said:

Hmm...but most CRT online moorings are not residential and the Lady likes to stay legal!    A small marina for the winter has all the advantages with the option to break out now and then. 

 

With careful planning its feasible to change the marina from time to time and may eventually find one where she might be happy with the neighbours... possibly! 

I bought a boat to move about, I just don't want to stay in a marina, I'd rather be independant, and stay in a house.

I really do not intend to organise my life round rules laid down by the CRT or anyone else. I think I know most of the rules, and basically, I find it easy enough to comply, I would only moor up if I wanted to for some reason essentially unrelated to moving every two weeks.

I am sympathetic to those who buy a boat to live on for mainly economic reasons, they probably can't afford a nice marina, but they have to fit in with the Ts and Cs, as we all do, I know they must be harried, I have experienced this myself, random people rushing up to me telling me I'm on a two day mooring (no notice,  nothing to do with them tbh.) 

I've not met many boaters, what with one thing, and no another,  but its evident that they come in all shapes and sizes. 🤣

Edited by LadyG
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23 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

I tend to think IanD is right, though I would assume there is still a cost in mothballing, but there will still be some maintenance and some income from water. The selling off of assets which can generate income is also tricky, the CRT could, in theory lease more land for housing, but its a specialist subject area. 

But selling off assets gives a short term gain. I haven't looked at the accounts recently but I know they used to get a lot of their income from property they owned. They certainly need more money to maintain the canals and I don't see any Government soon giving them a large quantity of money.  If you ask any non boater who benefits from the waterways and who therefore should provide the money for them, I think the majority will reply "boaters" . We can't argue with that although C&RT are trying to make the canals appeal to more people in the hope that this will result in more funding.  

I can't think of any other past time which gives us so much for so little money and although I don't like the idea as it will put a lot of people off the waterways, I can't see any other way of C&RT getting more money.  I wish I could. 

 

Haggis

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24 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I bought a boat to move about, I just don't want to stay in a marina, I'd rather be independant, and stay in a house.

I really do not intend to organise my life round rules laid down by the CRT or anyone else. I think I know most of the rules, and basically, I find it easy enough to comply, I would only moor up if I wanted to for some reason essentially unrelated to moving every two weeks.

I am sympathetic to those who buy a boat to live on for mainly economic reasons, they probably can't afford a nice marina, but they have to fit in with the Ts and Cs, as we all do, I know they must be harried, I have experienced this myself, random people rushing up to me telling me I'm on a two day mooring (no notice,  nothing to do with them tbh.) 

I've not met many boaters, what with one thing, and no another,  but its evident that they come in all shapes and sizes. 🤣

I'm done replying to this claptrap!   

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