Andy Burnham: “don’t throw Manchester hire bikes in the canal”

[john.k]

I know of only one country where it takes a thousand coppers to separate football club supporters after a game .

[Ange]

Hungary?

[Ange]

Or that country (in South America?) where the goal keeper had to go into hiding when he got home after letting in a crucial goal during the world cup because there was a price on his head and a good chance he'd be shot dead?

 

Do I get three guesses?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

OK if you're unhappy with the word trait let's try something else: British, Irish, Australian and New Zealanders are much more likely to engage in casual violence than those from other nations. 

Dunno, 32,000 North Americans seem to engage in casual violence each year by shooting and killing one another, but I suppose that doesn't fit your narrative, does it?

[The Welsh Cruiser]

8 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Dunno, 32,000 North Americans seem to engage in casual violence each year by shooting and killing one another, but I suppose that doesn't fit your narrative, does it?

I'd suggest that shooting someone tends not to be casual violence. Also that British people tend not to do this. A difference. Culture?

[Ange]

2 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Dunno, 32,000 North Americans seem to engage in casual violence each year by shooting and killing one another, but I suppose that doesn't fit your narrative, does it?

Methinks Ricco needs some foreign travel to educate him. We could crowdfund his ticket to one of these countries - I'd happily put money towards it.

 

The United Kingdom is 64th on the list,  Ireland 67th, Australia 75th, New Zealand 77th. The USA is 56th.

 

Source https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Ange
To add source

[john.k]

Of course,if you put up "Cities" with the highest crime rate,then Manchester would be near the top......in any case ,to return to the submerged bicycles,tossing yer bike int' canal is not a crime but sport in those regions,and to score top points ,someone should be riding it .

[The Welsh Cruiser]

I'm not sure who might have suggested that Britain etc. had a high rate of crime. The scope of crime doesn't end at casual violence, we all know this.

Edited November 15, 2021 by The Welsh Cruiser

[tree monkey]

30 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I'm not sure who might have suggested that Britain etc. had a high rate of crime. The scope of crime doesn't end at casual violence, we all know this.

To not deny things like the history with football and such like I've never really seen much in the way in casual violence in the UK and I never felt any fear of violence in NZ, in fact NZ was one of the safest places I ever visited and I wandered all over the place, well north island at least

[Wanderer Vagabond]

2 hours ago, john.k said:

Of course,if you put up "Cities" with the highest crime rate,then Manchester would be near the top......in any case ,to return to the submerged bicycles,tossing yer bike int' canal is not a crime but sport in those regions,and to score top points ,someone should be riding it .

I don't think so, perhaps it might score higher in a list of UK cities, I don't know since I haven't bothered to look at the stats, but on a global scale it, along with most UK cities is definitely not world beating. UK with a total murder rate of about 800, how does that compare with Mexico with 36,600? or Brazil with 57,358? they seem to have a 'casual' view on violence.

 

To return to the thread theme, whilst wandering around Birmingham I see that they have got 'Beryl' bikes here which seem to be the same firm setting up in Manchester and I haven't come across any of them in the canal yet. It is all very well deriding Manchester for having an initiative to try to do something about congestion, but what do people suggest that they should do? I had need to go from Brindley Place out to Bordesley in Birmingham on Saturday and used my own bike. For pretty much the whole way the city centre roads were gridlocked and no-one was going anywhere, anytime soon (well except me on my bike and the cycle couriers). If I hadn't used the bike I could have walked it quicker (it's about 2 miles) than anyone in a vehicle was going to be able to do it.

 

Does no-one else see the insanity of having a finite resource (roads) and trying to put an infinite number of vehicles onto it? It makes diddly squat difference how many roads you build if there is going to be no limit on the number of vehicles you are going to put on them, it will still end up with gridlock.

[The Welsh Cruiser]

2 hours ago, john.k said:

Of course,if you put up "Cities" with the highest crime rate,then Manchester would be near the top......in any case ,to return to the submerged bicycles,tossing yer bike int' canal is not a crime but sport in those regions,and to score top points ,someone should be riding it .

I've spent most of my life living around Manchester. The crime total against me is 23. From random street beatings to car and motorbike theft, a total of 7 car windows smashed then radios stolen, house break ins and attempted break ins. I guess this is just random chaos, exactly the same could have happened in a sleepy Wiltshire village. 

[Thomas C King]

13 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

In every country, minorities and nonconformists have violence done to them. If it's cultural, it's normal human culture and universal. It's just the way people are.

 

You can say that humans are, in general, capable of it. But I don't think we can say it's universal to the same extent across all cultures. Not that's what you were saying exactly.

 

Having a cursory look at a WHO report, they describe children from Arab-countries who emigrate to the US at an older age having far lower rates of violence compared to those who emigrate and become naturalized at a younger age. Another example is Sweden's changing (reducing) violence against children, attributed to changing social norms. The report outlines cases where there is a discrepancy between what individuals think the social norms are and what the wider thinks. Reducing the gap (e.g., between people who think it's normal for men to demand sex from their wives, and the wider population that doesn't) reduces violence.

 

I don't know how the UK stacks up in the "casual violence" category that Welsh describes, but I think it's wrong to ignore that there are cultural differences.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Thomas C King

[tree monkey]

50 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I've spent most of my life living around Manchester. The crime total against me is 23. From random street beatings to car and motorbike theft, a total of 7 car windows smashed then radios stolen, house break ins and attempted break ins. I guess this is just random chaos, exactly the same could have happened in a sleepy Wiltshire village. 

But to extrapolate your experience of violence to a countrywide conclusion is wrong, it's as valid as me saying I've not encountered any violence therfore the UK has no violence 

[The Welsh Cruiser]

43 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

But to extrapolate your experience of violence to a countrywide conclusion is wrong, it's as valid as me saying I've not encountered any violence therfore the UK has no violence 

I understand that but I was talking about crime in general, rather than casual violence. I'd guess the latter is higher in the cities too, but that's only a guess. My family have all suffered from crime in the area, as have many of my friends. I've only lived where I do for a year I've either seen nor heard of a crime of any description. I'm told the cluster of around 50 houses which have stood for 200 years, one of which I live in, have never suffered a break in. That would be totally out of the question around Manchester, thee would be one or two a year. Random chaos? 

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I've spent most of my life living around Manchester. The crime total against me is 23. From random street beatings to car and motorbike theft, a total of 7 car windows smashed then radios stolen, house break ins and attempted break ins. I guess this is just random chaos, exactly the same could have happened in a sleepy Wiltshire village. 

I lived 25 years in Birkenhead or thereabouts. Burgled once. 15 years in Macclesfield, no crimes. I'm not sure you can extrapolate from any one person's experience, and anyone trying to define cultural differences needs to be very careful of their own views unconsciously affecting the data they include or ignore. That's why anecdotal evidence is unreliable, and why statistics lie. Even the available data is dodgy, because that which the authorities don't regard as important for their purposes is unrecorded.

[The Welsh Cruiser]

2 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I lived 25 years in Birkenhead or thereabouts. Burgled once. 15 years in Macclesfield, no crimes. I'm not sure you can extrapolate from any one person's experience, and anyone trying to define cultural differences needs to be very careful of their own views unconsciously affecting the data they include or ignore. That's why anecdotal evidence is unreliable, and why statistics lie. Even the available data is dodgy, because that which the authorities don't regard as important for their purposes is unrecorded.

So everyone is the same, cultural difference is limited to food, drink, clothes, the arts and buildings, right?

[Thomas C King]

5 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

So everyone is the same, cultural difference is limited to food, drink, clothes, the arts and buildings, right?

 

For those interested, one of the most famous categorisations of culture are Geert Hofstede's. I knew his son, also called Gert Hofstede (ffs). The dimensions, widely criticised but nevertheless interesting, can be found here: https://geerthofstede.com/culture-geert-hofstede-gert-jan-hofstede/6d-model-of-national-culture/

[The Welsh Cruiser]

3 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

 

For those interested, one of the most famous categorisations of culture are Geert Hofstede's. I knew his son, also called Gert Hofstede (ffs). The dimensions, widely criticised but nevertheless interesting, can be found here: https://geerthofstede.com/culture-geert-hofstede-gert-jan-hofstede/6d-model-of-national-culture/

Thanks for that. I've skim read it, it's nice to read a more scientific appraisal of differences I've noticed during my travels. I'm looking forward to my bedtime reading later. 

[tree monkey]

3 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I understand that but I was talking about crime in general, rather than casual violence. I'd guess the latter is higher in the cities too, but that's only a guess. My family have all suffered from crime in the area, as have many of my friends. I've only lived where I do for a year I've either seen nor heard of a crime of any description. I'm told the cluster of around 50 houses which have stood for 200 years, one of which I live in, have never suffered a break in. That would be totally out of the question around Manchester, thee would be one or two a year. Random chaos? 

Invariably there will be more crime in cities simply because there are more people in close proximity to each other, it's likely that there will be differences between crimes city/rural, not much sheep rustling in Manchester but looking for drugs Manc will the go to place.

There will be some exceptions I might suggest, for example for a small town Wrexham had a reputation for a lively night out mainly because the local young farmers and locals from small villages would congregate in Wrexham, also a local small tourist town had a hell of a rep for drugs amongst the locals because the youth were bored.

 

 

[Jerra]

18 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

OK then, let's pretend that every group of people in every corner of the world behave exactly the same as every other group of people. Finally, something you can agree with.

What a ridiculous post.  I have never suggested that and you know it.  I am sorry my powers of explanation don't seem to be able to put the points in a way that is simple enough for you to grasp.  The alternative of course is that you don't want to grasp them and are desperately wriggling trying to avoid admitting the real situation.

11 hours ago, john.k said:

Of course,if you put up "Cities" with the highest crime rate,then Manchester would be near the top......in any case ,to return to the submerged bicycles,tossing yer bike int' canal is not a crime but sport in those regions,and to score top points ,someone should be riding it .

I have just looked at a table of the cities with the highest crime rate.  Out of the top 50 where do you suppose Manchester is?

[Arthur Marshall]

6 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

So everyone is the same, cultural difference is limited to food, drink, clothes, the arts and buildings, right?

I've lost track of what point you're trying to make. Basically, yes, everyone is the same, otherwise we couldn't communicate. We live in different places, someone growing up in farming areas will behave differently from someone growing up in a town. It's just environmental.

Defining a culture implies there are common characteristics beyond environment - like defining British people into classes,  it can be a useful short cut, but it isn't really true - there's not really any such thing as, say, working class culture, but believing there was made it easier for people who defined themselves as a superior class to lump a whole raft of different types of people and activities into one bucket and then treat them all the same.

It's like market theory, or the "economic man" in economics. Useful, as long as you remember it's not true. When you start acting in the real world as if it is, disaster tends to follow.

[Thomas C King]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I've lost track of what point you're trying to make. Basically, yes, everyone is the same, otherwise we couldn't communicate. We live in different places, someone growing up in farming areas will behave differently from someone growing up in a town. It's just environmental.

Defining a culture implies there are common characteristics beyond environment - like defining British people into classes,  it can be a useful short cut, but it isn't really true - there's not really any such thing as, say, working class culture, but believing there was made it easier for people who defined themselves as a superior class to lump a whole raft of different types of people and activities into one bucket and then treat them all the same.

It's like market theory, or the "economic man" in economics. Useful, as long as you remember it's not true. When you start acting in the real world as if it is, disaster tends to follow.

 

We're more or less the same genetically. However, it's obviously not true to say there is no such thing as culture. Culture can be defined in terms of artefacts like food, tools, etc. I don't think that's what you're disuputing. But also those social ones, like norms, which I think you're disputing. Specifically whether someone can behave differently, because of norms and values from the culture handed down to them or the one they've adopted over time.

 

Norms over crossing roads independently of there being any legal requirement are an easy observation to make. More rigorous are things like the world values survey. If there were no such thing as cultural norms and values, we wouldn't see the clustering that we do see in those two cases.

[The Welsh Cruiser]

Just now, Thomas C King said:

 

We're more or less the same genetically. However, it's obviously not true to say there is no such thing as culture. Culture can be defined in terms of artefacts like food, tools, etc. I don't think that's what you're disuputing. But also those social ones, like norms, which I think you're disputing. Specifically whether someone can behave differently, because of norms and values from the culture handed down to them or the one they've adopted over time.

 

Norms over crossing roads independently of there being any legal requirement are an easy observation to make. More rigorous are things like the world values survey. If there were no such thing as cultural norms and values, we wouldn't see the clustering that we do see in those two cases.

I'm afraid that many people have been programmed into believing that any discussions around differing behavioural tendencies/ norms across different groups imply racism and therefore must be closed down. Humanity is much poorer for this, in my opinion. The irony is that many such people celebrate multiculturalism on one hand, then deny that culture exists on the other.    

[tree monkey]

2 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I'm afraid that many people have been programmed into believing that any discussions around differing behavioural tendencies/ norms across different groups imply racism and therefore must be closed down. Humanity is much poorer for this, in my opinion. The irony is that many such people celebrate multiculturalism on one hand, then deny that culture exists on the other.    

Can you see the difference between what you post with the sly digs and the rational well argued post from Thomas

[The Welsh Cruiser]

2 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Can you see the difference between what you post with the sly digs and the rational well argued post from Thomas

The substance is the same though. Surely you wouldn't be swayed into believing in two opposite things merely because of the style of presentation?

Edited November 15, 2021 by The Welsh Cruiser