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Andy Burnham: “don’t throw Manchester hire bikes in the canal”


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Arthur is on fire today.

 

As for "Germanic" countries, if we're talking about the Netherlands. My experience of living there is that there are strong social norms to doe normaal (be normal, it's a phrase bandied around if you do anything outlandish like wear expensive clothes or show off). This is attributed by the Dutch to calvanism on the one hand, and what is called a "pillarised" society on the other where there is a kind of arms-length tolerance where you can do what you want as long as you stay away and don't upset the order. This apparently evolved to allow catholics, protestants, jews, and communists to co-exist.

 

However, it's not a paragon of tolerance and niceness towards everyone. The intolerance is permitted so long as it is normal intolerance. For example, blacking up for festivities, or calling black people zwaart pietes (santas black helpers). All good fun, because it's traditional. Indeed, the requirement to be normal is in itself also a type of intolerance.

 

On bikes specifically, Dutch bikes are usually cheap and second-hand. They get nicked, and if you're ever stuck in the middle of the night you can easily buy a nicked one for ten euros at a train station. They don't, I think, have as much a problem as we do with the vandalism though. Partially because bikes are so essential for getting around it's probably even more stupid to vandalise them than it is over here.

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1 hour ago, Thomas C King said:

Arthur is on fire today.

 

As for "Germanic" countries, if we're talking about the Netherlands. My experience of living there is that there are strong social norms to doe normaal (be normal, it's a phrase bandied around if you do anything outlandish like wear expensive clothes or show off). This is attributed by the Dutch to calvanism on the one hand, and what is called a "pillarised" society on the other where there is a kind of arms-length tolerance where you can do what you want as long as you stay away and don't upset the order. This apparently evolved to allow catholics, protestants, jews, and communists to co-exist.

 

However, it's not a paragon of tolerance and niceness towards everyone. The intolerance is permitted so long as it is normal intolerance. For example, blacking up for festivities, or calling black people zwaart pietes (santas black helpers). All good fun, because it's traditional. Indeed, the requirement to be normal is in itself also a type of intolerance.

 

On bikes specifically, Dutch bikes are usually cheap and second-hand. They get nicked, and if you're ever stuck in the middle of the night you can easily buy a nicked one for ten euros at a train station. They don't, I think, have as much a problem as we do with the vandalism though. Partially because bikes are so essential for getting around it's probably even more stupid to vandalise them than it is over here.

Thanks, that's interesting. Doubtless someone will be along shortly to suggest that the above is stereotyping, which is bad, so you shouldn't do it. 

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2 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Are you in the 'everyone is nice, everyone is the same' camp by any chance?

No not at all, but that's beside the point, your constant snide digs are boring, an interesting discussion is again sidelined by your little digs

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2 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Thanks, that's interesting. Doubtless someone will be along shortly to suggest that the above is stereotyping, which is bad, so you shouldn't do it. 

 

I don't think many people would suggest that. If you believe there is a thing called 'culture', then you believe that you can say general things about a group of people belonging to that culture. Most people know this. Stereotyping is when you go from the level of culture down to individuals and say "you're like this because you're a part of that culture". Stereotype as in a strong impression of a type someone is, rather than a probablistic one. I've never had anyone accuse me of stereotyping when I've spoken generally about a culture.

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12 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Into thinking you can stereo type whole populations on the behaviour of the minority.

Conditioned into thinking that observations of cultural characteristics/ tendencies are inherently, automatically and by default, negative.    

Edited by The Welsh Cruiser
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16 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Conditioned into thinking that observations of cultural characteristics/ tendencies are inherently, automatically and by default, negative.    

You miss the point.  Being a violent idiot is not part of UK culture or the majority would be like that.  Yet without thinking (or because you are conditioned ) you try to stereo type all Brits as being a) the same and b) the same as the violent idiots.

 

Stereotyping is by nature negative as you are either granting "good" characteristics/culture to a minority who don't deserve it or attaching "bad" characteristics/culture to a group who don't deserve it. 

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2 hours ago, Jerra said:

You miss the point.  Being a violent idiot is not part of UK culture or the majority would be like that.  Yet without thinking (or because you are conditioned ) you try to stereo type all Brits as being a) the same and b) the same as the violent idiots.

 

Stereotyping is by nature negative as you are either granting "good" characteristics/culture to a minority who don't deserve it or attaching "bad" characteristics/culture to a group who don't deserve it. 

You just don't get it do you. British people are involved in more casual violence than folk from most other countries. That does not mean that if a foreign person approaches a British person he or she should be scared of being beaten up. However, his or her chance of being beaten up, for no reason other than being in the wrong place at the right time, are higher in Britain than they are in many/ most other countries. This does not make British people 'bad', foreign people 'better' or 'worse' it's just the expression of a fact, driven by a cultural trait. You can try to suppress facts if it makes you feel better but I, and the vast majority of people, won't.     

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3 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

However, his or her chance of being beaten up, for no reason other than being in the wrong place at the right time, are higher in Britain than they are in many/ most other countries.

 

More than other countries, but not more than most, that'd be nuts! Britain is still doing pretty well on violence (looking at homicide rates) when compared internationally.

 

I think what you say on stereotypes is correct in terms of what is rational and what isn't. But I've not seen people accuse others of stereotyping when making the rational observation such as "men are more likely to be violent than women". I've only seen the correct attribution of stereotyping when people either impute a general property of a group onto individuals, or take a few individual cases and then over-generalise to the larger group. Of course, incorrect accusations will happen from time to time, but I don't get the feeling that it's commonplace.

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2 hours ago, Thomas C King said:

 

More than other countries, but not more than most, that'd be nuts! Britain is still doing pretty well on violence (looking at homicide rates) when compared internationally.

 

I think what you say on stereotypes is correct in terms of what is rational and what isn't. But I've not seen people accuse others of stereotyping when making the rational observation such as "men are more likely to be violent than women". I've only seen the correct attribution of stereotyping when people either impute a general property of a group onto individuals, or take a few individual cases and then over-generalise to the larger group. Of course, incorrect accusations will happen from time to time, but I don't get the feeling that it's commonplace.

Sorry yes I meant a specific type of violence; that where people get beaten up while they're just minding their own business, maybe having a quiet drink somewhere. Violence with no purpose but for violence itself. Violence exists elsewhere of course, but that particular type seems to be mostly a British/ Irish/ Australian/ New Zealand speciality. 

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8 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

You just don't get it do you. Some British people are involved in more casual violence than folk from most other countries.

Fixed that for you.

8 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

That does not mean that if a foreign person approaches a British person he or she should be scared of being beaten up.

I have never suggested it did!

8 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

However, his or her chance of being beaten up, for no reason other than being in the wrong place at the right time, are higher in Britain than they are in many/ most other countries.

Provide a reference for this assertion please.  I have managed to live well beyond 70 and never been beaten up with or without a reason.

8 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

This does not make British people 'bad', foreign people 'better' or 'worse' it's just the expression of a fact, driven by a cultural trait.

If it is a cultural trait the majority of the culture will have it.  Clearly they do not so it isn't a cultural trait.  Apart of course from in your somewhat illogical train of thought.

8 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

You can try to suppress facts if it makes you feel better but I, and the vast majority of people, won't.     

You can try to suppress facts if it makes you feel better but I, and the vast majority of people, won't.     The fact is to be a cultural trait the majority of the culture would show it, they don't.   Surely you aren't being daft enough to suggest that cultures are set by what a minority does?   If you are every country is criminal, dishonest etc as you will find a minority in every culture who have these traits.

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16 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Fixed that for you.

I have never suggested it did!

Provide a reference for this assertion please.  I have managed to live well beyond 70 and never been beaten up with or without a reason.

If it is a cultural trait the majority of the culture will have it.  Clearly they do not so it isn't a cultural trait.  Apart of course from in your somewhat illogical train of thought.

You can try to suppress facts if it makes you feel better but I, and the vast majority of people, won't.     The fact is to be a cultural trait the majority of the culture would show it, they don't.   Surely you aren't being daft enough to suggest that cultures are set by what a minority does?   If you are every country is criminal, dishonest etc as you will find a minority in every culture who have these traits.

Let me ask you a question: have you ever heard of violence in and around British towns and cities on weekend nights? 

 

Next question: Do you think this happens regularly in other countries, in the same way as it does in Britain?  

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50 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Let me ask you a question: have you ever heard of violence in and around British towns and cities on weekend nights? 

 

Next question: Do you think this happens regularly in other countries, in the same way as it does in Britain?  

Interestingly, I've only been beaten up twice, once back in the dark ages when hippies were the natural targets of both rockers and skinheads, and once by the police when they illegally (as it turned out) broke into my home. I'm not terribly sure what that proves; nothing, I suspect.

In every country, minorities and nonconformists have violence done to them. If it's cultural, it's normal human culture and universal. It's just the way people are.

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2 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Let me ask you a question: have you ever heard of violence in and around British towns and cities on weekend nights? 

Only by a tiny minority of the population.

2 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

 

Next question: Do you think this happens regularly in other countries, in the same way as it does in Britain?  

Irrelevant as you can't judge or pigeon hole  millions of people on the actions of a few thousand.  Well a fair minded logical person can't.

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4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Only by a tiny minority of the population.

Irrelevant as you can't judge or pigeon hole  millions of people on the actions of a few thousand.  Well a fair minded logical person can't.

OK then, let's pretend that every group of people in every corner of the world behave exactly the same as every other group of people. Finally, something you can agree with.

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2 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Let me ask you a question: have you ever heard of violence in and around British towns and cities on weekend nights? 

 

Next question: Do you think this happens regularly in other countries, in the same way as it does in Britain?  

Since we seem to be into asking pointless questions I'll throw one in of my own, what percentage of the British population would you assess indulge in violence? just a ball park figure will do. I would suggest that less than 50% would mean that it isn't an 'national trait'. Since only 1.16 million offenders were convicted in the year to March 2020 for all offences (or about 1.7% of the population) I would suggest you are going to struggle to get over the bar to show that violence is a British 'national trait'.

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1 minute ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Since we seem to be into asking pointless questions I'll throw one in of my own, what percentage of the British population would you assess indulge in violence? just a ball park figure will do. I would suggest that less than 50% would mean that it isn't an 'national trait'. Since only 1.16 million offenders were convicted in the year to March 2020 for all offences (or about 1.7% of the population) I would suggest you are going to struggle to get over the bar to show that violence is a British 'national trait'.

OK if you're unhappy with the word trait let's try something else: British, Irish, Australian and New Zealanders are much more likely to engage in casual violence than those from other nations. 

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