External alternator regulator

[JonesBoy]

Hi. Is there any advantage of fitting an alternator regulator If so what are they?

My batteries are lead acid.

Can anyone recommend a good one?

[Tony Brooks]

I would suggest that as long as inbuilt the regulator is set to 14.5 V then any advantage may be marginal but @nicknorman says his experience says different. I would go for an Adverc and have it set to around 14.6 volts of maybe 14.8 if you have lead antinomy batteries, like Trojans, and can keep them topped up.

[dmr]

I find mine essential but I'm a full time off grid liveaboard. It really does get the batteries charged a lot faster. We have the Adverc which is now a very old design but still mostly works well. I have slight;y modified mine so that the voltage control is external. I increase the voltage a little in winter (for T105s) but drop down a bit in summer if we are doing a lot of long cruising days.

[JonesBoy]

Thanks for replies.

 My batts are rolls s6-l16-sc and just wondered if fitting an alternator regulator would be of benefit or just a waste of money.

The engine is a beta 43 with a 175 amp alternator

I really know nothing about this subject.

I believe I have my Mastervolt combi charger is set up correctly when on shore power but just don’t know about when we are out on the cut and are just charging by the alternator.

[frangar]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

I find mine essential but I'm a full time off grid liveaboard. It really does get the batteries charged a lot faster. We have the Adverc which is now a very old design but still mostly works well. I have slight;y modified mine so that the voltage control is external. I increase the voltage a little in winter (for T105s) but drop down a bit in summer if we are doing a lot of long cruising days.

The design of the adverc may be old but so are lead acid batteries…and it does what it’s designed to do rather well and without fuss! 

[dmr]

11 minutes ago, frangar said:

The design of the adverc may be old but so are lead acid batteries…and it does what it’s designed to do rather well and without fuss! 

 

I don't disagree, and its also very well built. It contains a lot of little chips to implement its timing cycles and a little processor or micro-controller could do the same job better and cheaper. I don't advocate a Sterling style collection of flashing lights and bells and whistles, but an LED or two to indicate where it is in its cycle would be good, and also some slightly better fault detection for broken cables, and user adjustable voltage.

I have a spare that I purchased very cheaply because its owner thought it was broken because it gave no obvious indication that it was working 😀.

[blackrose]

I've had a cheapo Sterling alternator regulator for the last 15 years. It increases the voltage from 14.4v max without it to 14.7 - 14.8v.

 

Disconnecting the field wire decreases the amps going in according to my battery monitor so it must be working.

 

Essentially it turns your alternator into a 3 stage smart charger.

Edited November 10, 2021 by blackrose

[frangar]

6 hours ago, dmr said:

 

I don't disagree, and its also very well built. It contains a lot of little chips to implement its timing cycles and a little processor or micro-controller could do the same job better and cheaper. I don't advocate a Sterling style collection of flashing lights and bells and whistles, but an LED or two to indicate where it is in its cycle would be good, and also some slightly better fault detection for broken cables, and user adjustable voltage.

I have a spare that I purchased very cheaply because its owner thought it was broken because it gave no obvious indication that it was working 😀.

I used to chat to Brian who started the company quite often at various trade shows and he wasn’t one for lights…he just wanted his products to do their thing. My unit is a reasonably early one from about 1993ish. It uses the green light as a low voltage indicator when steady as well as over voltage when high when it’s flashing.  So if the batteries are quite discharged it’s on until the voltage rises above 13.8v They dropped this feature on later units as people particularly the ambulance service used to unplug the adverc as they thought it was a fault as it seems they couldn’t tell the difference between a flashing light and a steady one! 
 

I take your points but if you fit user controls then people will fiddle and you will get reports of it not working as it should. Remember many/most were fitted to fleet wagons such as ambulances and Royal Mail. 

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, blackrose said:

Snip

Essentially it turns your alternator into a 3 stage smart charger.

 

No you are not, although that is probably what Mr Sterling tells you.

 

1. It can do nothing while the alternator is at and close to maximum output because the alternator design automatically suppresses the voltage as the current rises. That is analogous to the bulk phase of a charger

 

2. Once the inbuilt regulator starts working the Sterling will raise the charging voltage. That is analogous to the bulk phase of a charger.

 

3. When a charger decides the batteries are full it will drop into a float voltage of around 13.6 volts. The Sterling can not do this because if it tried the alternator's inbuilt regulator would kick in and maintain the voltage at around 14.5 plus volts on a modern alternator, so no float phase.

 

All it can do is increase the charging voltage to some level above the alternator's own regulated voltage as and when it sees fit to do so. If you want a float voltage then the alternator's own regulator would need taking out of circuit, leaving the Sterling to do all the regulation but even then I doubt it is designed to produce a float voltage, Even if t were there is every possiility it would go into float too early for optimum battery life.

 

Do not get confuse by graphs and claims produced by marketeers.

 

 

 

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

3. When a charger decides the batteries are full it will drop into a float voltage of around 13.6 volts. The Sterling can not do this because if it tried the alternator's inbuilt regulator would kick in and maintain the voltage at around 14.5 plus volts on a modern alternator, so no float phase.

 

I’m sure you are right. And this is an issue for anyone thinking of using such a device to charge lithium batteries, which do not like to be held at a high float voltage. I think mr Sterling’s (IMO) rather weasley words are based on an assumption that it’s an ancient alternator with a regulated voltage of 13.8 or whatever, or a more modern one routing through a diode splitter. Bottom line as you say, the device can only increase the voltage, it can’t decrease it.

[nicknorman]

However it should be mentioned that there is a new generation of proper alternator controllers that replace, rather than supplement, the internal regulator. Wakespeed was one of the first, but now there is eg the Mastervolt Alpha Pro. Not cheap and does require a bit of alternator surgery, but great devices. If one ever has any plans to move to lithium batteries it might make sense to get a proper alternator controller now, rather than “buy cheap, buy twice”.

 

One advantage of many is the ability to reduce alternator output at low rpm. The domestic alternators on modern engines like the Beta 43 are capable of putting out virtually full output (approaching 2kw) at idle and this puts a big strain on the engine, pulley, belts etc. these modern devices reduce alternator output at low rpm to avoid straining things. It’s something I built into my own alternator controller and is really good - eg when you have to slow down for moored boats whilst the tumble drier is on. Remember that alternators are not just for charging batteries, they are also for running heavy loads directly.

 

Ed Shiers of Four Counties Marine is selling and installing them…

 

https://fourcountiesmarineservices.com/battery-management/
 

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

However it should be mentioned that there is a new generation of proper alternator controllers that replace, rather than supplement, the internal regulator. Wakespeed was one of the first, but now there is eg the Mastervolt Alpha Pro. Not cheap and does require a bit of alternator surgery, but great devices. If one ever has any plans to move to lithium batteries it might make sense to get a proper alternator controller now, rather than “buy cheap, buy twice”.

 

One advantage of many is the ability to reduce alternator output at low rpm. The domestic alternators on modern engines like the Beta 43 are capable of putting out virtually full output (approaching 2kw) at idle and this puts a big strain on the engine, pulley, belts etc. these modern devices reduce alternator output at low rpm to avoid straining things. It’s something I built into my own alternator controller and is really good - eg when you have to slow down for moored boats whilst the tumble drier is on. Remember that alternators are not just for charging batteries, they are also for running heavy loads directly.

 

Ed Shiers of Four Counties Marine is selling and installing them…

 

https://fourcountiesmarineservices.com/battery-management/
 

I'll cross-post this from another thread, showing just why a Wakespeed (expensive!) or Alpha Pro (cheaper!) is a good idea with big alternators...

Edited November 11, 2021 by IanD

[agg221]

27 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

One advantage of many is the ability to reduce alternator output at low rpm. The domestic alternators on modern engines like the Beta 43 are capable of putting out virtually full output (approaching 2kw) at idle and this puts a big strain on the engine, pulley, belts etc. these modern devices reduce alternator output at low rpm to avoid straining things. It’s something I built into my own alternator controller and is really good - eg when you have to slow down for moored boats whilst the tumble drier is on. Remember that alternators are not just for charging batteries, they are also for running heavy loads directly.

 

Ed Shiers of Four Counties Marine is selling and installing them…

 

https://fourcountiesmarineservices.com/battery-management/
 

That becomes a significant advantage.

 

We have realised that the power curve for the prop with and without the alternator is sufficiently different to make a significant difference. We have a Kelvin J2 on a 38' boat with significantly better hydrodynamics than a standard canal boat (round bottomed ice boat with long swims fore and aft). It runs with a hydraulic drive. With the selected prop, the whole set-up runs very nicely at cruising speeds with the alternator on, and has plenty in reserve for big rivers. However, it is not happy at low engine speeds with the alternator on and puts a significant strain on the engine - you can hear it labouring at idle revs. This is to the extent that for manoeuvring in and out of moorings and passing long lines of moored boats it gives two choices - slip the hydraulics back so the revs stay higher (you can't do this with a gearbox but you can with a swash-plate pump as it is infinitely variable) - this works but is fiddly to match the revs and the pump pressure as they are independently variable. It also tends to get various angry heads popping out as they don't hear the engine speed drop when passing, even though the travelling speed is dead slow. Alternatively I can turn the alternator off but the switch is down in the engine room and even if I add remote wiring I am likely to forget to switch it back on again. Something which automatically backs the alternator load off, e.g. at start-up and on low revs, would be extremely useful as it then becomes one less system to think about.

 

Alec

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, agg221 said:

That becomes a significant advantage.

 

We have realised that the power curve for the prop with and without the alternator is sufficiently different to make a significant difference. We have a Kelvin J2 on a 38' boat with significantly better hydrodynamics than a standard canal boat (round bottomed ice boat with long swims fore and aft). It runs with a hydraulic drive. With the selected prop, the whole set-up runs very nicely at cruising speeds with the alternator on, and has plenty in reserve for big rivers. However, it is not happy at low engine speeds with the alternator on and puts a significant strain on the engine - you can hear it labouring at idle revs. This is to the extent that for manoeuvring in and out of moorings and passing long lines of moored boats it gives two choices - slip the hydraulics back so the revs stay higher (you can't do this with a gearbox but you can with a swash-plate pump as it is infinitely variable) - this works but is fiddly to match the revs and the pump pressure as they are independently variable. It also tends to get various angry heads popping out as they don't hear the engine speed drop when passing, even though the travelling speed is dead slow. Alternatively I can turn the alternator off but the switch is down in the engine room and even if I add remote wiring I am likely to forget to switch it back on again. Something which automatically backs the alternator load off, e.g. at start-up and on low revs, would be extremely useful as it then becomes one less system to think about.

 

Alec

 

Rather than buy a very expensive controller just upgrade engine from J2 to K2, only one letter different so probably an easy upgrade. 😀

[agg221]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Rather than buy a very expensive controller just upgrade engine from J2 to K2, only one letter different so probably an easy upgrade. 😀

Well I did consider that - I could even just upgrade the number from J2 to J4 and solve the same problem. I did consider whether these two TASC-8 engines https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403277069350?hash=item5de52fbc26%3Ag%3ArzIAAOSwkLFhhDvL&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338464579&customid=SI_kelvin%2Bengine&toolid=10049

mounted in-line would be an alternative solution but my wife says that we do actually need the bathroom, the galley and somewhere for the children to sleep.

 

Alec

[dmr]

We passed a boat earlier this year with a K4, he said it went very well, dunno if he had a bedroom or not 😀

[agg221]

4 hours ago, dmr said:

We passed a boat earlier this year with a K4, he said it went very well, dunno if he had a bedroom or not 😀

Elder daughter has offered to sleep on top of the engine, which is probably possible on a K4. Since she has been known to still be polishing the J2 at 11.30 at night, I think that would combine the two quite nicely.

 

Alec

[David Mack]

7 hours ago, agg221 said:

Alternatively I can turn the alternator off but the switch is down in the engine room and even if I add remote wiring I am likely to forget to switch it back on again. Something which automatically backs the alternator load off, e.g. at start-up and on low revs, would be extremely useful as it then becomes one less system to think about.

Cam operated switch on the speed wheel rod?

[MtB]

On 11/11/2021 at 11:51, dmr said:

We passed a boat earlier this year with a K4, he said it went very well, dunno if he had a bedroom or not 😀

 

Probably not... 😂

[dmr]

9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Probably not... 😂

 

It had an interesting exhaust note, at first I thought it was some sort of single cylinder jobbie

[cuthound]

On 11/11/2021 at 11:27, agg221 said:

Well I did consider that - I could even just upgrade the number from J2 to J4 and solve the same problem. I did consider whether these two TASC-8 engines https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403277069350?hash=item5de52fbc26%3Ag%3ArzIAAOSwkLFhhDvL&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338464579&customid=SI_kelvin%2Bengine&toolid=10049

mounted in-line would be an alternative solution but my wife says that we do actually need the bathroom, the galley and somewhere for the children to sleep.

 

Alec

 

Butty?

 

[agg221]

21 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Butty?

 

Tempting