Draft and depth of Counter

[David Mack]

Just now, Iain_S said:

Could be done by raising the threshold of the front doors.

To 400mm above the water line.  That would be a hell of a step over the threshold on a typical nb.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Could be done by raising the threshold of the front doors.

 

Coaming heights are mentioned in the ISO spec,

Or, as shown in the ISO spec, the addition of one-way valves

 

Downflooding height to downflooding points within quick-draining or watertight recesses shall be measured as though the following openings are closed:

— freeing ports fitted with non-return flap closures which are watertight from the exterior to degree 3 of ISO 12216, or

— drains having a combined cross-sectional area smaller than three times the minimum area required to comply with ISO 11812 for quick-draining cockpits

Edited November 5, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

So you need outward opening spring door flaps across the lower part of your cabin front doors!

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

So you need outward opening spring door flaps across the lower part of your cabin front doors!

Stable doors? With waterproof seals and big bolts?

[ditchcrawler]

15 minutes ago, David Mack said:

To 400mm above the water line.  That would be a hell of a step over the threshold on a typical nb.

So how high would the well deck likely to be above the water line on an average modern narrowboat

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

So you need outward opening spring door flaps across the lower part of your cabin front doors!

 

NO !

 

Scupper valves in your self-draining deck well.

 

 

[David Mack]

Would scupper valves which are sufficiently watertight to meet the requirements of the ISO allow water to drain freely from a well deck, at virtually zero head of water and in the presence of leaves? If not rainwater could build up on the well deck deck to above door threshold level.

[Gregarious]

Thanks for all the advice folks, the boat builder/fitter out bought the Hull as a sail away with 38hp engine ballast and floor in place, we  first saw it at the  boat builders, and put a deposit on it. We were not involved with the specification, but had choices on interior layout.

The boat builder/fitter out sold us the boat and is on the invoice.

Ballast is brick, with no access.

Draft is measured to bottom of Skeg.

Think we'll have to get surveyor involved.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

17 minutes ago, Gregarious said:

Thanks for all the advice folks, the boat builder/fitter out bought the Hull as a sail away with 38hp engine ballast and floor in place, we  first saw it at the  boat builders, and put a deposit on it. We were not involved with the specification, but had choices on interior layout.

The boat builder/fitter out sold us the boat and is on the invoice.

Ballast is brick, with no access.

Draft is measured to bottom of Skeg.

Think we'll have to get surveyor involved.

 

The draft is not normally measured to the bottom of the skeg, how big is this skeg?    Some are quite thin, around 25mm and some are huge, like a 4" RSJ .

Is this really the problem?

How deep is the uxter plate in the water?  ( the base plate of the counter )

 

Are we to know the shell builder please?

[dmr]

I have boated with two friends who both had moderately deep "ordinary" boats, and by ordinary I mean smaller engines and small props rather than trad type boats with a big props and high torque engine. I confess that said boating was done on the Manchester end of the Rochdale, but both boats had a lot of problems. Trouble with a deeper modern boat is that it will get stuck on any silt or small obstructions and not have the power to pull or push itself off. A deeper boat also takes a fair bit of extra power to push itself along a typical shallow canal even if its not scraping the bottom.

It needs sorting out.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Gregarious said:

Thanks for all the advice folks, the boat builder/fitter out bought the Hull as a sail away with 38hp engine ballast and floor in place, we  first saw it at the  boat builders, and put a deposit on it. We were not involved with the specification, but had choices on interior layout.

The boat builder/fitter out sold us the boat and is on the invoice.

Ballast is brick, with no access.

Draft is measured to bottom of Skeg.

Think we'll have to get surveyor involved.

 

 

Then your terminlogy is not quite correct.

 

Your 'boat builder' was the Hull fabricator, your 'fitter' is legally called the 'boat builder' and it is he that is reponsible for certifying its compliance to the RCR.

 

As he was building the boat for re-sale and not for personal use, it MUST be built to, and certified as complaint (by law) by the 'builder'.

 

I'd suggest that Trading Standards may have more knowledge and 'clout' than a Solicitor who knows little or nothing anout the RCR and boat building.

 

With the Trading Standards you have two potential avenues to approach :

 

1) It is not fit for purpose under the "Consumer Rights Act 2015"

2) RCD compliance under the UK statutory Instrument (Act of Parliament) "The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017"

 

 

Consumer Rights Act 2015 - Which?

 

How long have you had ownership of the boat ?

 

 

As with the Sale of Goods Act, under the Consumer Rights Act all products must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described.  

The rules also include digital content in this definition. So all products - whether physical or digital - must meet the following standards:  

• Fit for purpose  The goods should be fit for the purpose they are supplied for, as well as any specific purpose you made known to the retailer before you agreed to buy the goods. 
• As described  The goods supplied must match any description given to you, or any models or samples shown to you at the time of purchase.
• Satisfactory quality  Goods shouldn't be faulty or damaged when you receive them. You should ask what a reasonable person would consider satisfactory for the goods in question. For example, bargain-bucket products won’t be held to as high standards as luxury goods.

How long do you have to return a faulty product?

The Consumer Rights Act gives you the legal right to either get a refund for goods that are of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described, or get it repaired  - depending on how long you've owned it:

• 0 - 30 days you can claim a full refund for goods that are of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described. 
• 30 days - six months you must give the retailer one opportunity to repair or replace it before you can claim a refund
• six months or more you must give the retailer one opportunity to repair or replace it before you can claim a partial refund, and the burden of proof is on you to prove the product is faulty

[nicknorman]

The thing is, having gone to all the nause and stress and excitement of waiting for a new boat to arrive, I suggest the preferred solution is to get the problem fixed rather than reject the boat. Assuming that is the only problem.

1 hour ago, Gregarious said:

Thanks for all the advice folks, the boat builder/fitter out bought the Hull as a sail away with 38hp engine ballast and floor in place, we  first saw it at the  boat builders, and put a deposit on it. We were not involved with the specification, but had choices on interior layout.

The boat builder/fitter out sold us the boat and is on the invoice.

Ballast is brick, with no access.

Draft is measured to bottom of Skeg.

Think we'll have to get surveyor involved.

 

You say “no access” but actually, there is access, just a bit tricky and maybe involving cutting holes in the floor. I’m sure the fitter-outer has a jigsaw!

[Gregarious]

56 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The draft is not normally measured to the bottom of the skeg, how big is this skeg?    Some are quite thin, around 25mm and some are huge, like a 4" RSJ .

Is this really the problem?

How deep is the uxter plate in the water?  ( the base plate of the counter )

 

Are we to know the shell builder please?

Hello,

The Uxter plate is 7" in the water

The Skeg is 2" (50mm)

I don't feel it appropriate to name names at the present time.

Best Wishes

G

[Tracy D'arth]

Then it is way too deep, with 2 people on the back and underway with a goodly bit of power on you are getting close to swamping the exhaust I would suspect. Have you told us how long this boat is?

[Iain_S]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

To 400mm above the water line.  That would be a hell of a step over the threshold on a typical nb.

That would depend on how high the self draining cockpit floor was  above the water line.

 

[Gregarious]

11 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Then it is way too deep, with 2 people on the back and underway with a goodly bit of power on you are getting close to swamping the exhaust I would suspect. Have you told us how long this boat is?

It's 60' Tracy

 

 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As he was building the boat for re-sale and not for personal use, it MUST be built to, and certified as complaint (by law) by the 'builder'.

Simply having the back end too deep in the water does not necessarily contravene any law. Whilst it is not good or normal practice, it may not breach any specifications in the sale agreement (which is probably silent on such matters) either. And so there may not be any recourse in law, which in any event is a slow, expensive and adversarial process unlikely to leave anybody happy.

Better to lean on the supplier on grounds of fitness for purpose, with the implied threat that not sorting it out is going to give the boatbuilder endless grief and hassle, and the potential of being named and shamed on social media. Helps of course if the buyer has yet to pay the final installment.

 

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Then it is way too deep, with 2 people on the back and underway with a goodly bit of power on you are getting close to swamping the exhaust I would suspect. Have you told us how long this boat is?

 

If there are any air vents into the engine space this is an even bigger risk -- get a few people on the stern, open the throttle so the stern squats down and the boat can sink before you know it, it's happened before.

 

An uxter 7" down is *way* too deep, with the boat static and all tanks empty it should be maybe an inch or so, or a couple of inches with some diesel in the tank and a steerer (normal conditions). Needs to come up maybe 5 inches, which would somehow mean removing about 5 tons of ballast if the bows are also the same amount too far down -- if it's only the stern, a couple of tons still needs removing from the stern.

 

It's a major cockup, and the builder/fitter should fix it.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

14 minutes ago, Gregarious said:

It's 60' Tracy

 

 

It must be massively over weight. How much weight have you put in as personal possessions?  Grand pianos, safes, libraries, AGA?

 

Is it a large cast iron old engine or a modern buzzer?

 

There is something seriously amiss, too bad to ignore, you need to get it sorted.

[nicknorman]

Does seem a major cockup. Has anyone checked for water under the cabin floor? You always want to have some inspection point for the cabin bilge near the back (normally the lowest part of the baseplate) so you can keep an eye for leaks from windows and plumbing. Cabin bilge SHOULD be completely dry, or maybe just slightly damp in winter from condensation.

[Markinaboat]

Is the baseplate the usual 10mm or greater? If the latter, (maybe 12.5 or 15mm), I wonder if the 'fitter outer' took account of this when installing the ballast?

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

Is the baseplate the usual 10mm or greater? If the latter, (maybe 12.5 or 15mm), I wonder if the 'fitter outer' took account of this when installing the ballast?

 

If he did take it into account, and there is no (or very little) ballast, the problem is even worse - how do you dump 5 tonnes of weight when there is nothing to dump ?

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If he did take it into account, and there is no (or very little) ballast, the problem is even worse - how do you dump 5 tonnes of weight when there is nothing to dump ?

Helium?

[Mike Tee]

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Does seem a major cockup. Has anyone checked for water under the cabin floor? You always want to have some inspection point for the cabin bilge near the back (normally the lowest part of the baseplate) so you can keep an eye for leaks from windows and plumbing. Cabin bilge SHOULD be completely dry, or maybe just slightly damp in winter from condensation.

All the wonderful suggestions and comments and finally ^^ nicknorman asks the question we should all have been asking if a boat is sitting low in the water!

[IanD]

Just now, Mike Tee said:

All the wonderful suggestions and comments and finally ^^ nicknorman asks the question we should all have been asking if a boat is sitting low in the water!

 

Except you'd need more than 5" of water inside the boat at the stern to pull it down 5", which might just possibly be noticeable since it would be over the floorboards...