Can I turn my theory into reality? Fossil fuel free, 100% off grid, but modcons

[IanD]

10 hours ago, TitaniumSquirrel said:

Okay, so I'm soon to have my own boat for the first time! I have a brother who is a wooden boat builder, a boss who lived off grid on a narrowboat for 20 years and turned it entirely electric, and work for a renewables company so have access to expertise and hardware when it comes to solar, heat pumps and batteries.

 

However, turning all of the theory of what I envisage into reality, requires some knowhow of things I am quite clueless about! Diesel. Engines. Insulation. Plumbing....

 

So, here's the idea:

3-4kw of solar on the roof, lithium ion battery bank, small heat pump, wood burner with a back boiler feeding some radiators, hot water with immersion and gas backup.

 

The idea being I can fully power, heat and provide hot water for a pretty damn comfortable lifestyle. This is a bit of a journey for me, and I want to see how practical it is to keep a decent number of modcons whilst being utterly off grid, all year round.

 

So, can I tap into the hivemind to see if anyone has done anything similar, or advice on small parts on it:

 

Heat pumps - has anyone ever had one on a boat? How is it? How did it work? What size? 

 

Hot water - how practical is it to have it running off an electric supply initially (with the solar kit I'll have, I should have plenty of electric without a hookup) with gas as a backup option? Is there kit out there that does this already? Would it require some sort of mash up of two systems with a manual changeover?

 

Heating - if I can make a heat pump work, this is sorted. If not......... how do people find running heating off purely a stove with a backboiler? I assume insulation is key? Double glazing with thermal breaks too!?

 

Cooking - I am contemplating having dual induction and gas..... induction in the summer when I have plentiful solar, and gas as a back up for the winter.

 

Ultimately, I want to use zero fossil fuels and be totally solar dependent, without sacrificing warmth, hot showers, or footy on the telly.

 

I'm not interested in naysayers sorry! I will more than happily take constructive criticism, but please don't tell me I'm mad. I know the theory is sound, I have seen most of this done before, I'm just looking to take it one step further!

 

All advice, questions, suggestions and comments welcome! Get involved!

 

Thanks!

 

I looked in detail into using a marine aircon/heating heat-pump unit to provide both aircon in summer and heating in winter to the electric/series hybrid boat I'm having built, specifically this one:

 

https://www.advanceyacht.co.uk/marine-air-conditioning-units-all/p/frigomar-scu16vfd

 

Apart from fitting the air ducting in -- difficult in a narrowboat, easier in a wideboat like I guess you're going for -- the problem is that it uses fresh water from the canal as a heat source, and will only work as a heater down to +5C inlet water temperature -- so in the depths of winter with the canal close to freezing (or even frozen over) you have no heating, you need another heat source.

 

The power to run it (1kW maximum) still has to come from somewhere. You can get about 5kW (peak output) of solar panels onto a widebeam boat which will typically yield about 20kWh/day in summer but only about 3kWh in midwinter, for a narrowboat 2kW of panels yields about 7kWh/day in summer and 1kWh/day in winter. Add the power to run all the other electrical stuff on the boat to the heat-pump, and the conclusion is that in summer (with a decent-size LiFePO4 battery bank) you'll be fine on a widebeam boat and maybe OK on a narrowboat so long as you don't have too many power-hungry appliances -- which remember includes electricity for kettle/toaster/cooking if you have no gas. In winter you have no chance for either size of boat, you need another source of power, which means either plugging into the shore or having an onboard diesel generator, preferably running on "green" HVO. Even if you use gas for cooking, you'll still need another source of electric power in winter, though you might just get away with solar on a wideboat depending on electrical use -- if you use a heatpump for heating, you won't have enough power even on a wideboat.

 

Unless you plug into the shore, you have no alternative but to use fossil fuels (or HVO) -- gas for cooking is of course a fossil fuel 😉

 

Gas for heating is several times more expensive than diesel (or HVO which is "non-fossil"), solid fuel is cheaper still but of course definitely a fossil fuel. Wood can be seen as renewable but if you're really worried about the environment then this would be ruled out by high particulate air pollution, and it's not impossible that woodburners will be banned in future because of this.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by IanD

[MtB]

1 minute ago, john.k said:

My electricity must come from renewable sources ......cause every time I turn the switch on,its back again!.........

 

Well coal is renewable. Just grow a load of trees and stuff and wait a few millennia, and bingo it's back again! 

[pete.i]

Yet another cloud cuckoo land resident. He says he works for a "renewables company" so I suppose he has an invested interest in pushing heat pumps. Good luck with that one.

[jpcdriver]

For small air source heat pump technology you would probably need to look at the automotive industry. I know my Prius PHEV has one, I believe supplied by Denso. I presume other EV manufacturers are going down this route as well. But as others have said, you will need more than the available electric from solar in winter to power it.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, jpcdriver said:

For small air source heat pump technology you would probably need to look at the automotive industry. I know my Prius PHEV has one, I believe supplied by Denso. I presume other EV manufacturers are going down this route as well. But as others have said, you will need more than the available electric from solar in winter to power it.

 

I suspect their heat source is not just ambient external air but more likely exhaust air from things like battery or motor cooling. If I am correct then they may not be produce as much heat from ambient air.

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, jpcdriver said:

For small air source heat pump technology you would probably need to look at the automotive industry. I know my Prius PHEV has one, I believe supplied by Denso. I presume other EV manufacturers are going down this route as well. But as others have said, you will need more than the available electric from solar in winter to power it.

 

The problem with air source heat pumps -- apart from finding space for them, OK on a wideboat but very difficult on a narrowboat, and assuming you can find one of suitable size -- is that they're considerably less efficient than the water source one I linked to above, and need even more electrical power -- typically around 1.5kW maximum compared to 1kW for 16000BTU (4.7kW) output. Which solves the freezing water problem, but makes the power problem worse still... 😞

 

So the simple answer to the OPs question is -- no. Not speaking as a naysayer, but someone who spent a lot of time looking at this to try and make it work, and concluded that it doesn't...

Edited November 4, 2021 by IanD

[jpcdriver]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I suspect their heat source is not just ambient external air but more likely exhaust air from things like battery or motor cooling. If I am correct then they may not be produce as much heat from ambient air.

It may use that as well but it can work just from ambient air. In February this year (during lockdown) when it was really cold I 'started' the car to charge the 12v battery and just sat in it for a couple of hours reading. The heating certainly worked well but obviously used a reasonable amount of the traction battery capacity which I could recharge anyway.

Edited November 4, 2021 by jpcdriver
changed last year to this year

[john.k]

Ive read that in very cold climates ,a gasoline powered aircraft cabin heater is a common accessory in a Tesla.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Hold up a sec. Which gas?

 

Green hydrogen will be necessary as you are not going to use fossil fuels. Is that available as bottled gas? Or are there any other non-fossil fuel gases to consider? I'd suggest investigating using HVO (green/renewable diesel) as a backup for cooking, rather than gas. 

It would also be better for heating the water. Lots of off grid boats keep hot with just a well placed muli fuel stove, ie. wood and coal. You can spot them with the doors wide open when its snowing. What worries me most about heat pumps is all the moving parts, seals etc. and what sort of maintenance/life they will have.

 

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

So the simple answer to the OPs question is -- no. Not speaking as a naysayer, but someone who spent a lot of time looking at this to try and make it work, and concluded that it doesn't...

 

Which, of course, makes you one of them scorned naysayers after all..!

 

What I think we all need is a box. A very very small one, that we can all think outside of. 

[ditchcrawler]

I could be fossil free on my boat just by changing to HVO and using that to power my engine and heating/cooking.

[GUMPY]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I could be fossil free on my boat just by changing to HVO and using that to power my engine and heating/cooking.

Come on then Brian set an example to us naysayers and get on with it 😉

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I could be fossil free on my boat just by changing to HVO and using that to power my engine and heating/cooking.

 

But where do you get the stuff? I am trying to get a 200 litre drum of red HVO delivered right now and getting nowhere.

 

Actually if HVO is green diesel how can it be red too? will it be striped?

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Come on then Brian set an example to us naysayers and get on with it 😉

If I have the boat long enough I expect I will, I wouldn't be surprised if most boat engines are running on HVO in a few years time. Its looking good at the moment. If hey would ever be able to produce enough to satisfy demand is another matter, also if people still want gas you have to make use of the by products, we use to produce a liquid known as condensate. It use to go to Carless Chemicals by train from North Walsham.

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

But where do you get the stuff? I am trying to get a 200 litre drum of red HVO delivered right now and getting nowhere.

 

Actually if HVO is green diesel how can it be red too? will it be striped?

Crown Oil are the only suppliers I have heard of

[dmr]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Crown Oil are the only suppliers I have heard of

 

Just about every fuel supplier has a big thing about it on their website but when you phone them its not so easy. I think they are all getting ready for the green bandwagon, but its not quite arrived yet. They appear to be looking for long term contracts to deliver biggish quantities, maybe they want to see how big the market is before seriously getting into it.

[GUMPY]

23 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If I have the boat long enough I expect I will, I wouldn't be surprised if most boat engines are running on HVO in a few years time. Its looking good at the moment. If hey would ever be able to produce enough to satisfy demand is another matter, also if people still want gas you have to make use of the by products, we use to produce a liquid known as condensate. It use to go to Carless Chemicals by train from North Walsham.

I would happily run mine on HVO but I am not mucking about with 205 kg barrels of the stuff, to much chance of a hernia not to mention the fact that marina wouldn't like it. To get people to convert it needs suppliers to change over but suppliers won't change without customer demand. 😱

[mrsmelly]

I fink the OP knows full well its pie in the sky, hes a wind up merchant thats caught loads of fish innitt 

[Slim]

Regarding HVO I'll admit to being a tyre kicker at this stage but how much does it cost when compared with either red diesel or pump diesel.?

 

 

 

 

 

[dmr]

8 minutes ago, Slim said:

Regarding HVO I'll admit to being a tyre kicker at this stage but how much does it cost when compared with either red diesel or pump diesel.?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Will let you know in a week or two. I think the issue is that purchasing in small quantities (200litre drums)  direct from fuel depot will put price right up.

 

Am investigating collecting some in an IBC as might have access to a flat bed with HiAB.

[peterboat]

41 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Crown Oil are the only suppliers I have heard of

Peak oils do it as well, although mine did come from Crown oils 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Which, of course, makes you one of them scorned naysayers after all..!

 

What I think we all need is a box. A very very small one, that we can all think outside of. 

 

I think you know exactly what I meant -- I'm not just throwing just negative comments at the OP without investigating like so many on the web do (the "naysayers"...), I actually wanted to make something like this work for myself and spent a lot of time looking into it in the hope that it would, but sadly the answer was no... 😉

 

Outside your very small box is a sea of fossil fuel...

Edited November 4, 2021 by IanD

[David Mack]

28 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Am investigating collecting some in an IBC as might have access to a flat bed with HiAB.

Can you legally store 1000 litres of HVO in an IBC? Or would you need a properly installed bunded fuel tank?

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/carriage-of-dangerous-goods-guidance-note-23/carriage-by-private-individuals-of-diesel-un1202-petrol-un1203-and-kerosene-un1223-by-road suggests that as a private individual you cannot legally transport it in an IBC. So I would have thought you would be unlikely to find a supplier willing to fill your IBC. Maximum is 240 litres per transport in containers of not more than 60 litres. And that is going to put the price up.

Edited November 4, 2021 by David Mack

[TitaniumSquirrel]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

This strikes me as spectacularly narrow minded and pointless.

 

The naysayers are the one who will highlight and draw your attention to the areas of particular technical difficulty, where 99% of your effort will need to be concentrated in developing solutions. 

 

My own naysaying contribution in this vein is to point out that your plan of 3-4kW of solar on a narrowboat is difficult due to the sheer area of panel this involves*. I presume therefore, you are getting a widebeam but you don't say. The beam of your boat will also turn out to be important I think, not only for the extra roof area it gives for the solar panels, but the space for all the gubbins you are planning (heat pump especially) will eat into your living area.

 

* Unless you have access to new technology panels that harvest more than the approx 200w per square metre that current tech delivers. 

 

Thanks for the feedback, I guess what I meant was I'm not interested in people who just say "this cannot be done" and don't offer any sort of reasoning or advice as to why, such as experience or evidence etc. Yours isn't naysaying, it's useful commentary on my ideas - as I said, I'm very open to constructive criticism, I'm just not interested in "you're stupid go away" kind of comments of which I see there have been some.

 

I am getting a narrowboat, and will be using 410W panels that are approx 1100x1800. They will be mounted in a single row, in portrait on the roof of the boat which will be moored S facing, and tilted to approx 30deg. I should be able to fit 3kW on about half of my boat this way, or push to 4kW if needed in future.

 

I'll let you know how I get on

 

 

[TitaniumSquirrel]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

I have 4.6kw of solar plus 2 big LifePo4s battery banks, in summer the excess solar heats hot water by immersion heater, and my cooking is by induction hob and microwave oven. Winter heating is by the Rayburn with backboiler, I burn mostly wood, the solar just about copes so would not run a heat pump. My boat is all electric including the drive motor, I still have a 6kw diesel genny, my boat is 57 x 12 it's double glazed and is spray foam insulated and has thinsulite as well  to fit everything a narrowboat won't work for the solar sorry mate it's a no go 

Awesome! This sounds like you've headed down the same path I'm looking to. Very glad to hear the immersion and induction can be fed off that solar in the summer - may I ask how many people are on your boat? I will just be on my own so might mean less demand than you? I'm on a narrowboat but will be using 410W panels at around 1100x1700, and should be able to fit 8-10 on no probs, in portrait in a row, tilted at around 30 degrees, and I'll be facing South.

 

I'm contemplating putting solar thermal panels on the side of the boat that faces south also, as it's a more efficient way of generating hot water, and would be ideal for the Winter when the sun is low in the sky.

 

The heat pump is certainly a more "out there" idea, but in theory it should be possible - I work with a chap who's been in heat pumps for around 25 years and we've gone through the theory a few times, obviously the proof is in the pudding but part of this journey is seeing whether it can work!