Diesel in sump BMC 1.8

[regginald]

I last checked my dispstick around 20 hrs (14 days) ago, it was close to minimum. I planned an oil change and have the new oil and filter ready but the oil i just pumped out was very thin and I beleive it had been diluted with diesel!!

 

I checked on the forums here and removed the lift pump and cleaned it all out, one of the valves had popped out and was on a 90 degree angle in the casing. I could not see a split in the diaphram although the was a big leak coming from the gasket and running down the engine.

 

I put fresh oil in and am hoping the level will not rise but I am pretty sure it is the seal in the injector pump shaft, my question is which seal will i need to replace?? According to the manual there are 2 seals part number 47 and 1 o ring part 46 on the hydrolic pump diagram. Also can i get an oring over the shaft or will the pump need to be dismantled and the seal put on from the pump end.

 

If anyone has information please let me know

 

Regards

[Tony Brooks]

If it turns out to be the pump I recommend that you take it to a diesel injection specialist for overhaul and Re-setting. That way you should get all the seals changed and the new ones may better cope with bio-diesel.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[regginald]

I understand, Thanks for replying Tony, I wish i could but I simply do not have the £300 to do the service exchange ATM and not likely to for a long time with my current situation. I have a service kit for it as i needed the gasket on the istall screw part a year ago and will have to do this job myself or not at all. The pump seems to be ok its just the diesel in the sump issue. Have you removed the pump before? Do you know the proseadure for changing the seal? and whether it is the seals or the o ring which is in need of repacing?

 

[Tony Brooks]

No I have not removed an injector pump from a 1.8 but have done loads on 1.5s and part from position they are all but identical.

 

No, I have not changed any shaft seals because when working for a customer I need a guarantee if it leaks again after I fitted it.

 

Where did you get that £300 from? Talk to your local diesel equipment specialist.

[regginald]

OK i will try, but here at Denver Sluice nothing is very local and a lot of folks in west Norfolk do not seem to be interested in providing a good service. I have run the engine for 1hr with no level change but will keep a very close eye on it, and think i may have to try doing it myself due to lack of funds.

[TheBiscuits]

@ditchcrawler might know who to call over that way.

[regginald]

Thanks, I would be very interested in finding someone who can service it. Now watching youtube videos on overhaul, seems difficult to replace the seal if the shaft is fixed from the inside.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

I have always entrusted injection pumps to the specialist. Dismantling one to replace seals will as far as I know necessitates recalibration. I have never paid anything like £300 for a repair on my own pumps. Is that just an exchange price? A repair should be less.

[regginald]

yes an exchange price is 300 - 400. I could do with finding someone local to do it, pump seems good except maybe a dodge seal

[Tracy D'arth]

If the diesel is definitely not getting from the lift pump, it has to be the injection pump.

 

But  999 times in 1000 it is the lift pump that has an almost invisible tiny hole  or split in the diaphragm. I would establish if the lift pump is faultless before doing the injection pump.

 

I am suspicious as you have already found one fault with the valves in the pump, that alone is unusual.

[regginald]

yes the valve had rotated 90 degrees and was no longer functioning. it does seem strange but i do not see how that could interfere with the sump. 2 hours without a level change now but i think i need more hours on it to really know for sure. The diaphram did look ok but the 6 screws keeping the diapham in the housing were barely tight and just came off as though they were finger tight but i still think i need the pump doing, it has always leaked from the throttle shaft.

 

[Slim]

1 hour ago, regginald said:

I understand, Thanks for replying Tony, I wish i could but I simply do not have the £300 to do the service exchange ATM and not likely to for a long time with my current situation. I have a service kit for it as i needed the gasket on the istall screw part a year ago and will have to do this job myself or not at all. The pump seems to be ok its just the diesel in the sump issue. Have you removed the pump before? Do you know the proseadure for changing the seal? and whether it is the seals or the o ring which is in need of repacing?

 

I have removed removed my 1.8 injector pump a couple of times over the years. Technically it's not difficult but it's a bit fiddley. On mine the pump is secured by 3 studs and one of the nuts is a b*****d to undo. It's the one nearest the block. The only way I could get a spanner on it was to grind down a 16 point ring spanner 'til it would fit. One of those jobs where it's easy to see the problem but difficult to describe. When I replaced the nut in question I used two half nuts. Two other points,  1) Don't forget to mark the relationship between the pump and the engine. (scribed line or centre punch ) 2) If it's got a torsion bar fitted (seemingly some don't and some say it's not needed) it can be right so and so to get the pump fully on. Best advice is ease the pump in then push it further with a simultaneous twist anti-clockwise ?. 

As for overhaul price I've just looked it up and 4 years ago I paid £435 parts and labour to have my pump and injectors overhauled (Outer London prices). 

[regginald]

Thanks for info, i know the nut you mean, mine has a castle nut there so hammer and screwdriver should work. my main concern would be putting the pump back together in a way that it works the same as it is working now. most of the injecror pipe hex parts are rounded off at the pump end too. a lot of trouble just por a perished o ring

 

[TNLI]

On 03/11/2021 at 20:09, Tracy D'arth said:

If the diesel is definitely not getting from the lift pump, it has to be the injection pump.

 

But  999 times in 1000 it is the lift pump that has an almost invisible tiny hole  or split in the diaphragm. I would establish if the lift pump is faultless before doing the injection pump.

 

I am suspicious as you have already found one fault with the valves in the pump, that alone is unusual.

OH, OH, Ahha! 

  Now that is interesting cos I did not know the lift pump, (I have an odd habit of calling it a wobbler pump), can fail in such a way that it can contaminate the engine oil. If that is true, which cos you know this engine, it probably is, it reminds me of an old sailor who was something of a local diesel guru. He always said that if you have a serious problem with one part of a system, like the fuel,

cooling or oil system. DO not change just that part, change the entire system, including the Copper pipes and fuel, oil or hydraulic hoses. 

  I might not have been such a replacement fanatic, but if I had an issue with fuel contamination, and knew that either pump could cause it, I would definitely change the cheapest component first. New lift pumps are cheap and easy to change, although I would buy a good one from a well known supplier like ASAP or Calcutta bots.

 

Also if the OP can't afford a new HP pump, KEEP CHANGING THE ENGINE OIL FAR MORE OFTEN THAN NORMAL. There is no need to change the oil filter and the added diesel fuel tends to act like a solvent, so an oil filter will last a long time,

 

OFF TOPIC:

Just starting to sort out the engine loom wiring, BUT I don't know the max number of Amps for the starter motor solenoid ?? I need that in order to select a 12V relay.

Edited November 21, 2021 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, TNLI said:

OFF TOPIC:

Just starting to sort out the engine loom wiring, BUT I don't know the max number of Amps for the starter motor solenoid ?? I need that in order to select a 12V relay.

Why not start a new topic? I keeps things far simpler to follow.

 

The problem is there are two coils in parallel in the solenoid and one, the high current one, is cut out the moment that actual motor is energised. This means you get  a very high current flow for a few seconds and then (from memory so probably not accurate) a steady  flow of perhaps six amps. I think a 40 amp automotive relay would be fine but I would use an old car type inertia starter solenoid.

 

I don't have a starter to hand so can't measure the resistance of the two windings and use that to calculate the current flow.

[regginald]

Just checked my oil level and it is 6cm above the max line and very thin. I hope i make it home. I have had enough with this BMC, problem after problem the last 5 years while the folks with japanese engines here just do services only. 4 head gaskets, head skim, new valves and guides, new injectors, thermostat, and oil pours out the bottom and smoke pours out the exhaust. No money to buy parts due to covid making me unemployed and my BMC eaten all the money i had saved due to working my arse off on minimum wage. Why cant the BMC just work as it should? Now i gotta strip the injector pump and try and repair it myself as i cant even afford £25 quid for new oil for another month.

 

If anyone has a good link to a hydrolically governed pump strip down i would be eternally grateful, all youtube vids are mechanical ones. I see the pump overhall kit comes with instructions but mine did not. I bought it few years back to put new seals on the throttle shaft.

[TheBiscuits]

12 minutes ago, regginald said:

Why cant the BMC just work as it should?

 

It probably did fifty years ago ...

[Tony Brooks]

This is the best I can come up with but it costs https://www.artificalis.co.uk/products/cav-dpa-fuel-injection-pump-hydraulically-governed-workshop-manual

[Mikexx]

33 minutes ago, regginald said:

If anyone has a good link to a hydrolically governed pump strip down i would be eternally grateful, all youtube vids are mechanical ones. I see the pump overhall kit comes with instructions but mine did not. I bought it few years back to put new seals on the throttle shaft.

 

I have a copy of CAV_DPA_Workshop_Manual.pdf which is very similar to Toby's link. It' seems to have a few extra pages and mentions 1971 but not the actual date of publication. I can PM you, unless there is an repository of documents on this site where I can put it?

[TNLI]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

This is the best I can come up with but it costs https://www.artificalis.co.uk/products/cav-dpa-fuel-injection-pump-hydraulically-governed-workshop-manual

Good link, but can you service this type of pump without special tools ?? I suspect it might be possible to do the seals, but it's rare for a HP pump to be fully serviceable without the type of tooling in a diesel injection shop. Real plus it can be done!

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

 

I have a copy of CAV_DPA_Workshop_Manual.pdf which is very similar to Toby's link. It' seems to have a few extra pages and mentions 1971 but not the actual date of publication. I can PM you, unless there is an repository of documents on this site where I can put it?

 

If it is not too much trouble I would like a copy.

[regginald]

Thanks Tony that does look good, i might try looking for a free copy somewhere using the info on the free pages.

 

Mikexx you could mail me at reginald.harrington.dsc at g mail dot com. i would be very gratefull for it, engine is now cooling down i am taking pump off shortly.

 

tnli, i dont want to take apart those tricky parts, just remove the shaft and put new seal on there hoping to leave the settings and the rest intact.

 

thanks all for trying to help me

 

[Mikexx]

I have put 2 of the files I have here.

 

https://we.tl/t-hWMS3qNN9c

 

I hope these help

[regginald]

I have them both thanks so much!!! i will read through all of it a few times before doing anything.

 

thanks a million

 

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, regginald said:

Just checked my oil level and it is 6cm above the max line and very thin. I hope i make it home. I have had enough with this BMC, problem after problem the last 5 years while the folks with japanese engines here just do services only. 4 head gaskets, head skim, new valves and guides, new injectors, thermostat, and oil pours out the bottom and smoke pours out the exhaust. No money to buy parts due to covid making me unemployed and my BMC eaten all the money i had saved due to working my arse off on minimum wage. Why cant the BMC just work as it should? Now i gotta strip the injector pump and try and repair it myself as i cant even afford £25 quid for new oil for another month.

 

If anyone has a good link to a hydrolically governed pump strip down i would be eternally grateful, all youtube vids are mechanical ones. I see the pump overhall kit comes with instructions but mine did not. I bought it few years back to put new seals on the throttle shaft.

Before you tear down the injection pump, are you sure that it is not the lift pump diaphragm leaking fuel into the sump?