Can we avoid buying through brokerage?

[Alan de Enfield]

13 hours ago, Tacet said:

A broker is not a seller at all; it represents the prospective seller.   A firm or person that sells its own boat is err... a seller. 

 

A firm or person can be both a seller and a broker - but not in the same transaction.

 

Maybe I worded it badly.

 

As far as the legal requirements for disclosure are concerned a broker has exactly the same requirements as a private seller (ie none).

UNLESS - they actually own the boat in which case all sorts of legal requirements kick-in re disclosure, mandatory guarantees, money back if not happy for any reason etc.

 

I purchased a boat that was apparently on brokerage, I found out that in fact the boat had been taken in part exchange, and, was therefore owned by the brokerage.

Between me paying my deposit and the balance, a bill of sale appeared in which the brokerage sold the boat to their Financial Director and my purchase ended up being from a 'private individual' with no warranties.

[Tacet]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Maybe I worded it badly.

 

As far as the legal requirements for disclosure are concerned a broker has exactly the same requirements as a private seller (ie none).

UNLESS - they actually own the boat in which case all sorts of legal requirements kick-in re disclosure, mandatory guarantees, money back if not happy for any reason etc.

 

I purchased a boat that was apparently on brokerage, I found out that in fact the boat had been taken in part exchange, and, was therefore owned by the brokerage.

Between me paying my deposit and the balance, a bill of sale appeared in which the brokerage sold the boat to their Financial Director and my purchase ended up being from a 'private individual' with no warranties.

Yes - a boat being sold in the course of a business is subject to different rules than one sold not in the course of a business (whether through a broker or not).  But neither is subject to a money back for any reason obligation.

 

In your example, your boat can only realistically have been taken in part-exchange for a boat owned by the firm.  So it looks as though it had a habit of buying and selling on its own account.  If your deposit was taken by the firm in the course of its business,  I think you would have a legitimate grumble if it was sold, without your agreement, before completion of your sale in order to dodge the legalities.

 

 

[MtB]

39 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Yes - a boat being sold in the course of a business is subject to different rules than one sold not in the course of a business (whether through a broker or not).  But neither is subject to a money back for any reason obligation.

 

I think there might be one circumstance where a "money back" right exists. When the buyer buys from an internet advert and never gets to see the boat until they take possession after completion. I suspect such transactions might fall within the scope of the Distance Selling Regulations, now the Consumer Contracts Regulations. Some stuff about them here (which I have not read!):

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations-aAijb9Q8UT3V

 

 

[Tacet]

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I think there might be one circumstance where a "money back" right exists. When the buyer buys from an internet advert and never gets to see the boat until they take possession after completion. I suspect such transactions might fall within the scope of the Distance Selling Regulations, now the Consumer Contracts Regulations. Some stuff about them here (which I have not read!):

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations-aAijb9Q8UT3V

 

 

Good point - but no idea myself!

[OldGoat]

Methinks it's a more fundamental challenge that most of the above would admit.

 

If you sell direct you have all of the Worlds whell kickers making you dance to their tune.

Using a broker costs - but the tyrekickers are reduced (either by tem not bothering or the broker  filtering the same).

It depends on wher you want to work for the equivelent of the brokerage - or have a very, vrey thick skin.

 

I suspect deep inside me that folks who sell direct quite often get caught...

Do you feel lucky???

[john.k]

The advantage of selling a boat through a broker becomes apparent when you have to deal with dreamers , conmen,schizofrenics,spivs,stalkers,and common  nutters who are attracted to boats for various reasons....

[Naughty Cal]

3 hours ago, john.k said:

The advantage of selling a boat through a broker becomes apparent when you have to deal with dreamers , conmen,schizofrenics,spivs,stalkers,and common  nutters who are attracted to boats for various reasons....

We must have been lucky. We only had three sets of genuine buyers to contend with 

[MtB]

3 hours ago, john.k said:

The advantage of selling a boat through a broker becomes apparent when you have to deal with dreamers , conmen,schizofrenics,spivs,stalkers,and common  nutters who are attracted to boats for various reasons....

 

You missed out the 50% of people who want to view but never turn up, cancel at the last minute, say yes they want it, negotiate a price, shake hands on it then say "Right, we just need to put the house on the market and sell it to raise the money".... 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, john.k said:

The advantage of selling a boat through a broker becomes apparent when you have to deal with dreamers , conmen,schizofrenics,spivs,stalkers,and common  nutters who are attracted to boats for various reasons....

 

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

You missed out the 50% of people who want to view but never turn up, cancel at the last minute, say yes they want it, negotiate a price, shake hands on it then say "Right, we just need to put the house on the market and sell it to raise the money".... 

 

 

I've obviously missed out a great deal in my boat selling life.

Over the last 40 years, or so, I've sold 16 boats, I have never had any of the above examples, and from memory every boat has been sold to the first enquirer, and all for cash.

 

I wonder why ?

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I've obviously missed out a great deal in my boat selling life.

Over the last 40 years, or so, I've sold 16 boats, I have never had any of the above examples, and from memory every boat has been sold to the first enquirer, and all for cash.

 

I wonder why ?

 

 

You sold them all too cheap, your anecdote suggests!

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

You sold them all too cheap, your anecdote suggests!

 

 

 

 

 

Taking into account maintenance costs and improvement costs (but excluding licence, moorings etc) I made a profit on every boat except one (a big sea-going cruiser where I lost ~£40k)

I have sold all boats at 'estimated market price' less brokers fees so I made the same as I would have done had I sold via a broker, and the buyers have saved 5%+ and got a bargain

 

Win-Win all round which is how a sale/purchase should be, with everyone happy.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Taking into account maintenance costs and improvement costs (but excluding licence, moorings etc) I made a profit on every boat except one (a big sea-going cruiser where I lost ~£40k)

I have sold all boats at 'estimated market price' less brokers fees so I made the same as I would have done had I sold via a broker, and the buyers have saved 5%+ and got a bargain

 

Win-Win all round which is how a sale/purchase should be, with everyone happy.

 

 

Yes but you are a genius who does everything perfectly in every way, as everyone on here knows. Normal people are not so gifted.

 

A male version of Naughty Cal, some might even say!

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Yes but you are a genius who does everything perfectly in every way, as everyone on here knows. Normal people are not so gifted.

 

A male version of Naughty Cal, some might even say!

 

 

I have certainly had a 'good life' and have found the old saying "the harder you work, the luckier you get" to be true, and, I can go to my grave in the knowledge I have 'played fair' and never knowingly 'ripped anyone off'.

If that is being Mr Perfect, then so be it.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Yes but you are a genius who does everything perfectly in every way, as everyone on here knows. Normal people are not so gifted.

 

A male version of Naughty Cal, some might even say!

 

Oooh get Mr. Sarky.....

 

 

[Delibe]

On 31/10/2021 at 16:22, system 4-50 said:

Just to satisfy my nosiness, what do you want?

In my dreams or in the real world

 

Real world answer is 45' - 60'; cruiser stern essential, otherwise layout is immaterial. My outlay including survey, blacking and essential repairs cannot exceed £35k. General upgrade to interior, titivating the paintwork etc can be done as time goes on. Like I said, it's a small budget.

 

As for the dream... I won't really know that until I've run my own boat for a year or two.

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, Jane Cartridge said:

Real world answer is 45' - 60'; cruiser stern essential, otherwise layout is immaterial. My outlay including survey, blacking and essential repairs cannot exceed £35k. General upgrade to interior, titivating the paintwork etc can be done as time goes on. Like I said, it's a small budget.

 

 

Bear in mind whichever way you cut it, it costs £5k a year to own and run a boat. The way you write about your tightness of budget suggests to me you might not be fully prepared for this.

[Delibe]

I know that boats are money pits! we've been sailing and motor boating for several years. It's just the whole canal thing that's new  Running costs are not a problem, I can cover that fine; it's the purchase that is on a tight budget, I have a certain amount of money saved up and I'm not willing to borrow.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Jane Cartridge said:

I know that boats are money pits! we've been sailing and motor boating for several years. It's just the whole canal thing that's new  Running costs are not a problem, I can cover that fine; it's the purchase that is on a tight budget, I have a certain amount of money saved up and I'm not willing to borrow.

 

Phew! 

[Delibe]

 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Jane Cartridge said:

Real world answer is 45' - 60'; cruiser stern essential, otherwise layout is immaterial. My outlay including survey, blacking and essential repairs cannot exceed £35k. General upgrade to interior, titivating the paintwork etc can be done as time goes on. Like I said, it's a small budget.

 

So about £30k maximum purchase price.  You could look at boats with an asking price up to about £35k, but in the current crazy market I don't think many sellers are going to be accepting offers much below their asking price.

 

Have you looked at Ebay? Most reasonable boats on there are classified ads at fixed prices, but from time to time boats go up for auction and bargains can be had, especially if you are able to go and view within the auction period so you are not buying completely blind. But you won't get the opportunity for a pre-purchase survey, so there is some risk involved.

[agg221]

On 06/11/2021 at 11:16, Jane Cartridge said:

In my dreams or in the real world

 

Real world answer is 45' - 60'; cruiser stern essential, otherwise layout is immaterial. My outlay including survey, blacking and essential repairs cannot exceed £35k. General upgrade to interior, titivating the paintwork etc can be done as time goes on. Like I said, it's a small budget.

 

As for the dream... I won't really know that until I've run my own boat for a year or two.

Don't forget you will immediately need insurance, a mooring (I presume you will not be continuously cruising, based on your location) and a licence, generally in that order. There are some technicalities which can be used in a few rare circumstances to spread these out but I suggest budgeting £2.5-3k for this (depends on length). For context, we have a 38' boat with a historic discount and are on the cheapest available mooring. This gave us a combined figure of £2k for the above.

 

Alec

[Jim Batty]

Hi Jane

When we were looking for our perfect narrowboat we had to rely on public transport to get to some pretty remote places all over the south and Midlands to view boats. So it became crucial to get the best idea of a boat's condition and layout beforehand, so as to not waste time and resources. 

What ultimately worked best was choosing a place where there were a few brokers close to each other, each with a couple of potential boats advertised that we were interested in. Then we'd make a long weekend of it. We did this by bus and train. If you've a vehicle, it would be all the easier.

For us, the Braunston area, taking in Whilton and Blissworth, was productive. If you're more mobile you could add Rugby, etc. into the mix. 

I would want to know an awful lot about a boat and its condition before traveling down from Northumberland to view it. And I have to say we had a few serious (and expensive) disappointments traveling out to single boats that had been 'oversold' and overvalued by private owners.

At least with the brokers there was a variety of boats to see all at once.

 

Our perfect live aboard boat turned out to be one that was not yet on the broker's website - and that we looked at on a whim ... because we happened to be there at the right time.

 

Best of luck finding your boat.

[David Mack]

On 06/11/2021 at 13:52, David Mack said:

Have you looked at Ebay?

For example https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40FT-Cruiser-Stern-Narrowboat-/115065048539?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0.

40 ft, cruiser stern, looks to be in clean condition, may need some overplating in future. £25k.

 

Or https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40-Narrow-boat-/265380821405?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

40 ft trad stern, pedigree builder, well fitted out but perhaps slightly dated interior, £30k.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

 

Or https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40-Narrow-boat-/265380821405?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

40 ft trad stern, pedigree builder, well fitted out but perhaps slightly dated interior, £30k.

 

 

Times are certainly changing ................... a very dated 40 year old, 40 foot NB for £30,000.

5 years ago I bought a 15 year old 'modern' boat for the same amount.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Delibe]

4 hours ago, agg221 said:

Don't forget you will immediately need insurance, a mooring (I presume you will not be continuously cruising, based on your location) and a licence, generally in that order. There are some technicalities which can be used in a few rare circumstances to spread these out but I suggest budgeting £2.5-3k for this (depends on length). For context, we have a 38' boat with a historic discount and are on the cheapest available mooring. This gave us a combined figure of £2k for the above.

 

Alec

All of these are separately budgeted for as running costs. We are already boat  owners so we're prepared for the ongoing costs  

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

For example https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40FT-Cruiser-Stern-Narrowboat-/115065048539?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0.

40 ft, cruiser stern, looks to be in clean condition, may need some overplating in future. £25k.

 

Or https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40-Narrow-boat-/265380821405?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

40 ft trad stern, pedigree builder, well fitted out but perhaps slightly dated interior, £30k.

I have been monitoring ebay, facebook, gumtree, apollo duck, you name it, for some months and continue to do so! As well as being on the mailing list for every marina and brokerage I can lay my eyes on. But, as I said earlier in the thread, there's no rush. And it's nice to look at all the boats I can't afford