Can we avoid buying through brokerage?

[Delibe]

We live in Northumberland far far from the waterways system. I am actively seeking a used narrowboat, but doing 99% of my research online so far. All I have found are brokerages. Where do private sales get advertised? Also I have a pretty small budget  not good news at the moment.

[alias]

2 minutes ago, Jane Cartridge said:

We live in Northumberland far far from the waterways system. I am actively seeking a used narrowboat, but doing 99% of my research online so far. All I have found are brokerages. Where do private sales get advertised? Also I have a pretty small budget  not good news at the moment.

 

Here's one place: https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/

[Delibe]

I do review Apolloduck regularly (obsessively more like) but most are brokerage adverts once you open them up. I only ask as we have been warned off brokerages on the grounds of inflated prices. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jane Cartridge said:

I do review Apolloduck regularly (obsessively more like) but most are brokerage adverts once you open them up. I only ask as we have been warned off brokerages on the grounds of inflated prices. 

 

The prices of pretty well all boats regardless of how they are sold are 'inflated' at the mo due to demand.

[TheBiscuits]

If the boat you want to buy is for sale via brokerage then you have to deal with a broker.

 

If it isn't then you don't.

 

There aren't many boats for sale currently as those worth buying are snapped up in hours rather than days or weeks.

[Naughty Cal]

We sold ours privately. It was advertised on a couple of boating forums.

 

We had three offers on the table within days of it going on the market.

 

It sold sight unseen for over the asking price with no survey.

 

In the current market you have to move quick to secure a deal on a decent boat.

[booke23]

It's not a good time to be coming to the narrowboat market as a buyer with a small budget.

Virtually all brokers have a minimum standard of boat they will market, as they like to preserve their reputation......so won't sell wrecks (maybe one or two will). So prices will always be strong with broker boats.   

Your best bet will be to keep an eye on facebook marketplace, ebay, gumtree and apollo duck.

For a steel narrowboat, you're probably going to need to spend £30k to get anything reasonable. Even then you'll have to separate the wheat from the chaff.   

[agg221]

Apolloduck, Ebay and Facebook Marketplace are all places to look. They contain a mix of private sales and brokerage sales.

 

If you have a small budget, at current prices you are probably buying a project. That means you will end up with additional expenditure but it is spread out over a longer period and you can put in labour which does not have a cash cost.

 

Personally, I don't think brokers in inflate prices per se. They sell at what the market will stand which, as has been mentioned, has been very strong (although it does seem to be slowing down slightly which is to be expected as it gets colder and darker). I would also echo the point that the place the boat you want is for sale dictates whether you are buying through a broker or privately. If your specification is wider then you have more options.

 

Brokers do also overcome three significant challenges of the private sale. Firstly, when the boat goes on brokerage you know exactly what you are getting. In a private sale, the owner continues to have control right up to the point of handover and things you thought were part of the purchase may turn out not to be. From personal experience, this can be annoying and carry some additional cost. Secondly, it makes handing over the money easier as there is never a point where one party has both the money and the boat. This is challenging to avoid in a private sale (not impossible, but challenging). Thirdly, if you buy through a reputable broker, they can be genuinely helpful in arranging the pull-out for a survey (you want your own surveyor) and in providing the right documentation such as a bill of sale. Again, you can do this yourself but it requires a steeper learning curve.

 

Within the past six weeks, I bought Oates privately, a friend bought The King through Harefield. His purchase was a lot more straightforward than mine. I think if I had the choice I would buy through a reputable broker but I am only ever likely to buy the kind of boat which will change hands privately.

 

Alec

 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by agg221

[Delibe]

Thank you all. This is very helpful. We aren't in a massive rush to buy, hoping the market will cool a little along with the weather! viewing boats is a bit of an undertaking from where we live, and the temptation to rush is in quite strong. But I'm pretty level headed and know what I want. 

 

[Naughty Cal]

1 minute ago, Jane Cartridge said:

Thank you all. This is very helpful. We aren't in a massive rush to buy, hoping the market will cool a little along with the weather! viewing boats is a bit of an undertaking from where we live, and the temptation to rush is in quite strong. But I'm pretty level headed and know what I want. 

 

We knew what we wanted when we bought our first boat. Then went out and bought something completely different 🤣🤣🤣

[Delibe]

That's always a possibility of course 😱

 

[system 4-50]

Just to satisfy my nosiness, what do you want?

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

We knew what we wanted when we bought our first boat. Then went out and bought something completely different 🤣🤣🤣

 

Yes this is the trouble with boats. They tend to choose you and make you buy them, rather than the other way around.

 

This can come as a surprise when some broker or other says "I know this boat isn't what you want, but just come in and have a look at this <whatever feature>". And 90 minutes later you are the proud owner....

[MarkH2159]

I bought my boat via brokerage and I consider they did a very good job working well for both me and the vendor.

They were informative and open about all aspects and advised me to make what I considered to be a really low ball first offer.

The agreed price came out about half way between my original offer and what was asked.

Paperwork was done in just over a week and everyone was happy.

There are indeed some good brokers around, but from some of the stories I have heard, quite a few not so good too.

[Tony Brooks]

I must be odd then. I made a list of what I wanted equipment wise, not so much layout apart from it having toe a cruiser stern with a dinette, found one for sale that matched and bought it out of a hire fleet. Only sold it in a year or so a go after nearly 30 years,

[enigmatic]

57 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Personally, I don't think brokers in inflate prices per se. They sell at what the market will stand which, as has been mentioned, has been very strong (although it does seem to be slowing down slightly which is to be expected as it gets colder and darker).

I'd go further and say that people who choose to sell privately are more likely to inflate their prices than brokers except in the rare case they have no idea that prices have gone up recently. Brokers don't want boats to hang around, and make very little extra money (sometimes none at all) for selling a boat for £10k more, and they also end up with most of the boats sold by people who just want rid for minimum fuss, They won't pretend the boat's their pride and joy and they're really offended if you offer £5k below asking price either, and will sometimes drop absolutely massive hints that the the owner will probably come to a deal around that mark

 

Private sellers generally care enough about the selling price to be prepared to do the work themselves to save handing over 5% to a broker (or have boats brokers won't touch...), and usually know that prices are "silly" at the moment so they might as well ask for as much as possible because they can always ask for less later on.

 

 

[Naughty Cal]

13 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I'd go further and say that people who choose to sell privately are more likely to inflate their prices than brokers except in the rare case they have no idea that prices have gone up recently. Brokers don't want boats to hang around, and make very little extra money (sometimes none at all) for selling a boat for £10k more, and they also end up with most of the boats sold by people who just want rid for minimum fuss, They won't pretend the boat's their pride and joy and they're really offended if you offer £5k below asking price either, and will sometimes drop absolutely massive hints that the the owner will probably come to a deal around that mark

 

Private sellers generally care enough about the selling price to be prepared to do the work themselves to save handing over 5% to a broker (or have boats brokers won't touch...), and usually know that prices are "silly" at the moment so they might as well ask for as much as possible because they can always ask for less later on.

 

 

I'm not sure that is entirely fair. Not all private sellers are like that at all.

 

We priced ours to take account of our saving in brokerage fees and priced it to take account of the high hours for the type of boat.

 

We were more than happy with the price we got for the boat and the seller was happy with the price he paid.

 

Not everyone is out to screw people over. 

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

I'm not sure that is entirely fair. Not all private sellers are like that at all.

 

We priced ours to take account of our saving in brokerage fees and priced it to take account of the high hours for the type of boat.

 

We were more than happy with the price we got for the boat and the seller was happy with the price he paid.

 

Not everyone is out to screw people over. 

 

I have done the same - I get a value and if the broker would take (say) 10% I drop the asking price by 10%.

I get the same as I would via a broker, the buyer saves 10%.

 

Every boat I have sold has sold within a matter of days, even a viewing on Christmas eve. and they came back and paid in cash on Boxing day.

[enigmatic]

19 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

I'm not sure that is entirely fair. Not all private sellers are like that at all.

 

We priced ours to take account of our saving in brokerage fees and priced it to take account of the high hours for the type of boat.

 

We were more than happy with the price we got for the boat and the seller was happy with the price he paid.

 

Not everyone is out to screw people over. 

Of course not all private sellers are like that. If you're really lucky you might even run into someone that has no idea what their boat is worth in the current market.

 

But most of the sellers asking for £20k more than the boat's worth aren't brokerages

[Naughty Cal]

2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Of course not all private sellers are like that. If you're really lucky you might even run into someone that has no idea what their boat is worth in the current market.

 

But most of the sellers asking for £20k more than the boat's worth aren't brokerages

And several are brokers "testing the water" as well. 

 

Several in Norfolk selling their own hire fleet boats are trying out massively over inflated prices.

 

Some get lucky and sell.

[Bee]

Its all about the boat really. Private sellers can flog you a nasty heap of trouble, so can brokers. The onus is really on you to do the research on builders , generally speaking most boats that you see will be built to a pretty good standard but but some builders have better and more desirable designs, you will soon get your own favourites. The older the boat the more work is likely and within reason the interior fit out is not that hard to re jig. All that is hugely generalised and there are many people who will tell you all sorts of old nonsense about various boats so no matter who is selling the thing trust your surveyor (and some of them aren't too great either)

[Mike Todd]

You may or may not have picked up a particular nuance from a number of the above comments: a high proportion  of boat sellers at the moment are expecting immediate completion and not prepared to wait for you to have a survey. You may be happy with that but others are a bit wary - it is a big purchase and you are risking a lot on your judgement and what you can seen during a guided tour. I do not have any direct knowledge about this but you might also feel that a broker (an honest one, anyway) will be especially alert to the legalities of what the seller must reveal during a sale. Private sellers may not know and be quite happy to remain silent on anything you do not ask.

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I do not have any direct knowledge about this but you might also feel that a broker (an honest one, anyway) will be especially alert to the legalities of what the seller must reveal during a sale.

 

In which case he / she would be mistaken.

 

A broker is simply a 'private seller' unless they are selling aboat owned by them.

neother a broker, or a private owner is legally required to divulge any information, or highlight any problems. It is considered ethical to answer correctly any specifically asked question, such as  "has it had a survey", "is the engine running" "are there any fuel or oil leaks"

 

The seller could just let you lose on the boat and not even be there to answer questions.

 

The RYA statement on the subject :

 

 

Broker’s ‘Legal Liability To Disclose Information’

 

In the RYA’s view, there is no general legal obligation on either Seller or broker to disclose the existence of defects to a prospective Buyer, unless, of course, they are asked a specific question, which is why a survey is essential. Nevertheless the RYA, the BMF and the ABYA believe that it is good practice for a broker to fairly represent a boat being offered for sale and should therefore disclose any defects made know to them by the Seller.

 

Again from the RYA advice to sellers and buyers :

 

A standard disclaimer will be included in the brokers Agreement with the Seller, the purpose of which is to protect a broker against complaints by a Buyer that the broker’s published particulars of a boat are wrong,

 

Few brokers will actually look at the boat to assess its condition, they will instead rely on details provided by the seller and thus they can say "we know of no faults", and, you will most often see the 'small print' (disclaimer) on the bottom of the sales details that will say something similar to "we have no liability for the accuracy of these details, they are based on the information provided to us by the seller"

[Tacet]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In which case he / she would be mistaken.

 

A broker is simply a 'private seller' unless they are selling aboat owned by them.

 

A broker is not a seller at all; it represents the prospective seller.   A firm or person that sells its own boat is err... a seller. 

 

A firm or person can be both a seller and a broker - but not in the same transaction.

[Mike Todd]

15 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In which case he / she would be mistaken.

 

A broker is simply a 'private seller' unless they are selling aboat owned by them.

neother a broker, or a private owner is legally required to divulge any information, or highlight any problems. It is considered ethical to answer correctly any specifically asked question, such as  "has it had a survey", "is the engine running" "are there any fuel or oil leaks"

 

The seller could just let you lose on the boat and not even be there to answer questions.

 

The RYA statement on the subject :

 

(cut for brevity)

Just so - the key word is 'fair'

 

The extent to which a broker depends on the 'small print' excuse will quickly feed in to their reputation, and in a relatively small market that is crucial to longer term success. Comments over time on this forum alone show just how that can work, with some brokers being consistently considered to be minimal in what they contribute. (Even if sometimes you have to read between the lines!)

 

In any such context it is always sensible to develop a (small) set of 'catch all' questions such as "Is there anything else that you think I should have asked you about?", "Who do you recommend for serving the boat?". Just one would when entering into any contractual arrangement.

 

It also amuses me that many brokers seem to have a very keen eye for the positives about a boat (which they wax lyrical about, but never seem to know anything about defects! Must all wear rose tinted glasses?

 

The only time we have sold a boat in modern times (ie with extensive internet) it was interesting how much homework the buyer did in a very short period of time and what they extracted from our blog, for example. They then used, or attempted to use, this in negotiation! What you write on the internet is second only to wet wipes for persistence . . .