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BMC 1.5 Gearbox I.D.? Also not engaging gear at all.


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Hello,

This site been incredibly helpful so far seeing how everything is breaking in our boats engine bay. Hoping someone could identifyIMAG1043.jpg.ace32411c8d9fa9b321cc4e4a3bcab7f.jpg this gearbox, it's attached to a BMC 1500 and suggest any things to check for when it doesn't select/engage gear? Also what oil it needs?

 

Thank you 

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looks like a Borg Warner Velvet drive to me. It uses ATF (Dexron). Check the oil level. The filler has a dip stick under it and it is the square headed plug between there cable n the left and the silver gear cable.

 

Make sure the silver gear cable is actually moving the control and if t is, disconnect it and try the control lever by hand.

 

If neither work it may be the drive pate but unless you have had chattering noises and a noisy drive take up  over the last months a box rebuild is more likely. When the box s split I seem to remember a fibre mesh oil strainer as per car auto boxes and that MIGHT be blocked.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Judging by the amount of oil splashed about down there I would suggest that it is leaking and is short of oil. That would make it lose all drive.

 

Where has all that grey emulsified oil come from?

 

I'd assumed it was an accident with a pot of grey paint.

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Might be tar epoxy sprayed onto an area of rust just below the engine. 

 

If you are trying to clean up an engine bay without using an expensive marine degreaser, genuine normal green Fairy Liquid was tested by Which magazine, and is still the best cheap washing up liquid, and about the only one that will emulsify diesel fuel. When doing a standard oil and fuel filter change at sea on a Spanish fishing boat I crewed on for a season, I always changed the oil and filter first, because I nearly always spilt some in the bilges, then I changed the fuel filters. That way the diesel mixed with the oil, before I dumped some Fairy Liquid into the engine bay. Not exactly go green, but I had no choice. The motion of the boat then cleaned up the bilge area surprisingly well. When adding the Fairy Liquid I poured it into the stream of sea water from the deck wash hose, so the Fairy gets spread around. I definitely would not do that in a canal!

 

OK back to my gearbox issue, (Still no luck moving the engine to my garage yet, or even taking a look at it). Can someone describe roughly how to remove a hydraulic box, and confirm that a manual box will fit without an adapter plate, (I think TB said it will), No idea which one, as it will depend on what Marine Enterprises or Calcutt have available.

  Also can anyone think of any potential issues running the old BMC donkey without a box attached ??

 

 

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if you run the engine off its mounts,good chance it will tip over.......and why would you replace the Velvetdrive box......at least you can get parts for it quite cheaply ,as there are millions of them in boats ,tractors,forklifts etc.......replace seals ,and while its apart throw in a set of new plates,if needed.......id be replacing the BMC with something like a Perkins 3/152 as half baked car motors in boats are always trouble.

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2 hours ago, john.k said:

if you run the engine off its mounts,good chance it will tip over.......and why would you replace the Velvetdrive box......at least you can get parts for it quite cheaply ,as there are millions of them in boats ,tractors,forklifts etc.......replace seals ,and while its apart throw in a set of new plates,if needed.......id be replacing the BMC with something like a Perkins 3/152 as half baked car motors in boats are always trouble.

HI John, and thanks for the reply. Alas the old reconditioned BMC 1500 donkey I purchased does not have a Velvet drive, and a hydraulic box with a heat exchanger complicates the keel cooling a tad too much anyway. So I need it removed.

 

The engine and box are on a shipping pallet, and once the box is removed, it will be fitted to 2 dummy mounts, (Wooden blocks and clamps), so it can't tip over.

 

If a good diesel engine is correctly marinized, it should do just as well as a real marine diesel.

 

The Perkins are good, but like the BMC 1500 diesel, most of them have no real service history, and have often been badly abused. The owners or operators of all the various boats and even a few yachts that were fitted with a BMC, have no clue about the importance of using top quality engine oils and filters. To make matters worse some of them don't change the oil often enough. Finally they never seem to comprehend just how bad it is to rev up an engine just after a cold start. That nasty habit combined with the use of cheap engine oil that lacks enough DZZP, a very important Zinc based anti wear additive that helps to reduce the incredible increase in engine wear when the oil film fails during a cold start, will murder the life expectancy of the main block.

 

  The other odd issue with high time old donkeys, is how they are used, as canal boat owners that have to go through a lot of locks, often make sudden movements with the throttle, and every time you do that, (It does not matter if you suddenly open or shut the throttle in extra wear terms), it puts the engine bearings and crankshaft under a serious extra load. 

  The final killer is the use of a low power setting, (Below 1500ish), that fouls up the cylinders with mostly Carbon based deposits that work their way past the rings and contaminate the oil, (Minor problem if you change the oil more often), BUT also increases the wear rates of the rings, cylinder walls and valve guide oil seals. Those deposits can be burnt off, but it needs hours of near max continuous power to do that job, 

  Using a real good diesel only, (Acea B4), engine oil does help, as the detergents in those more expensive oils, (Mobil Delvac is cheap at the moment), will help prevent sludge and varnish formation blocking up part of the oil circuit, and causing even more trouble.

 

The other real nasty unknown, partly caused by poor alarm and lack of an auto fuel cut system, is serious overheating. The old blocks are far tougher than the modern marine diesel blocks, (Except BUKH blocks). but if one keeps getting cooked up, it will have consequences, like a warped cylinder head. 

 

OK, rant over!

 

PS: Anyone changed a hydraulic box for a manual one, and have enough time to comment ??

  

 

  

  

  

Edited by TNLI
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2 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

 

PS: Anyone changed a hydraulic box for a manual one, and have enough time to comment ??

  

 

This probably a waste of time and what I say will be ignored/misrepresented/misunderstood.

I have changed a number of the original BMC B type mechanical boxes for PRM hydraulic ones over the years to gain better life and reliability. The principle is the same but in reverse.

 

The only hydraulic boxes that have the shaft coupling in line with the input shaft are the BW Velvet drives, a 1:1 drive Lister LH150 and possibly a 1:1 TMP (there may be others I don't know about). Most common mechanical boxes have the shaft coupling in line with the input shaft so the first thing you need to do is to work out how much the engine beds/your mounting frame needs modifying so the shaft on the mechanical box aligns with the shaft coupling. I still think your box is an old PRM so the coupling will not be in line with the input shaft.

 

Next you need to think bout the adaptor plate needed to match the gearbox to the flywheel housing. I think the PRM adaptor plate confirms with the SAE standard so the worst you may need to do is to get it machined and/or drilled to suit the new gearbox. If the new box comes with an adaptor plate it may go straight on.

 

Next the gearbox input shaft splines may be different on the new box. If so you will need a new drive plate to bolt onto the flywheel. There is a good chance that your engine has a bulk ring bolted to the flywheel and if so the drive plate is smaller than the more common type.

 

I have heard, but not seen, of gearboxes with the input shaft cut short. I think that might suggest that on your engine with that old pattern flywheel housing may put your gearbox too close to the engine so a packing block for the gearbox might need producing but I am hopeful that with the present box (If I have correctly identified it) the adapter plate will allow for this.

 

It beats me why anyone would want to buy a mechanical gearbox that tend to be shorter lived and thus more unreliable than PRM boxes to save themselves buying a different gearbox oil cooler or modifying the existing one, especially as the boat is supposed to be going to the West Indies.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tony Brooks
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25 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The boat and the whole project is going west, the sooner the better.

 

What concerns me is that if what we have been told is true a charity seems to be on course to loose money they would not need to if they had done a bit of due diligence.

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5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

This probably a waste of time and what I say will be ignored/misrepresented/misunderstood.

I have changed a number of the original BMC B type mechanical boxes for PRM hydraulic ones over the years to gain better life and reliability. The principle is the same but in reverse.

 

The only hydraulic boxes that have the shaft coupling in line with the input shaft are the BW Velvet drives, a 1:1 drive Lister LH150 and possibly a 1:1 TMP (there may be others I don't know about). Most common mechanical boxes have the shaft coupling in line with the input shaft so the first thing you need to do is to work out how much the engine beds/your mounting frame needs modifying so the shaft on the mechanical box aligns with the shaft coupling. I still think your box is an old PRM so the coupling will not be in line with the input shaft.

 

Next you need to think bout the adaptor plate needed to match the gearbox to the flywheel housing. I think the PRM adaptor plate confirms with the SAE standard so the worst you may need to do is to get it machined and/or drilled to suit the new gearbox. If the new box comes with an adaptor plate it may go straight on.

 

Next the gearbox input shaft splines may be different on the new box. If so you will need a new drive plate to bolt onto the flywheel. There is a good chance that your engine has a bulk ring bolted to the flywheel and if so the drive plate is smaller than the more common type.

 

I have heard, but not seen, of gearboxes with the input shaft cut short. I think that might suggest that on your engine with that old pattern flywheel housing may put your gearbox too close to the engine so a packing block for the gearbox might need producing but I am hopeful that with the present box (If I have correctly identified it) the adapter plate will allow for this.

 

It beats me why anyone would want to buy a mechanical gearbox that tend to be shorter lived and thus more unreliable than PRM boxes to save themselves buying a different gearbox oil cooler or modifying the existing one, especially as the boat is supposed to be going to the West Indies.

 

 

 

 

 

Great thanks, as that's exactly what I needed to know, SO I WILL STICK WITH THE PRESENT BOX, and ask one of the local BMC experts, (All too busy at present due to a lack of sober marine engineers in the Poole area, combined with an excess of work). You did correctly ID the box, and when I downloaded the service manual, it is identical to the diagrams and the operating link is the one in the black and white picture. 

 

In installation terms, I've already moved a small Mahogany bedside table that fits onto the end of the engine beds, (The batteries were mounted on the same area when the boat sank), but my new battery bay, (2 start and 2 house batteries), is directly under my own coffin berth. That has resolved the lack of room issue. 

  Doing fairly well with a new instrument panel and will send pictures of that unit when my sister visits, as I still can't get Win 10 to connect, (Blue tooth), to my mobile. If anyone wants to know how to make an instrument panel, then can ask me, as it's cheaper to use the 100 quid kit, plus the 3 gauges panel, and a 100A relay for the glow plugs. Total cost of parts is about 150 quid. Fingers crossed the sensors will fit. 

 

I would point out to anyone making engine instrument panels, that I would not use what anyone claims is a waterproof panel outside the cabin. If you have to install it outside, (A big boat problem), make sure it has a waterproof hinged cover plate to keep the water off the panel, AND prevent impact damage. My glow plug relay is bigger than required, relays last far longer if you fit one that is double the peak load required in rating terms. Also if you don't like electrical fires, fit a heavy double insulated supply cable to the operating panel with its own heavy duty fuse. I've lost count of how many small electrical fires are started by a direct feed from a 12v battery, including 2 new boats. The big sinner seems to be Fleabay 12v 240v inverters that short out when they fail. The boats crew then change the fuse, (Stuffed some tin foil or similar into the fuse holder in one case). The panel with the power socket was a direct to battery one, hence the fire. 

 

Question about hydraulic box heat exchangers:

Is it possible to remove the normal heat exchanger and fit a normal oil cooler. Yes I know they are bigger units, but it does simplify the plumbing side of things for a keel or radiator cooled diesel ??

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5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

What concerns me is that if what we have been told is true a charity seems to be on course to loose money they would not need to if they had done a bit of due diligence.

Yes that concerns me too, but it is not easy to get the right advice for a BMC 1500, as it's an old donkey with a deceased owner, (Mr Morris), and I also have to suffer from an incredible number of experts on everything, (I'm in a popular pub car park), including wrong information!

  

Trinidad & Tobago have cash to burn as they were net positive in GDP terms when I had to leave. Not sure of what happened in the last few years, but the rise in the price of LNG will give their government money to burn, The tourist trade in Tobago would have been hit real hard, BUT it's far less important than their O & G sector activities, including a serious smelting plant for high grade steel use for their oil and gas rigs that are built on the island. 

 

PS: Do not go to Trindad, particularly if you look like a rich light skinned tourist. Tobago is a great spot and you can fly their direct from London, 

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1 hour ago, TNLI said:

 

Great thanks, as that's exactly what I needed to know, SO I WILL STICK WITH THE PRESENT BOX, and ask one of the local BMC experts, (All too busy at present due to a lack of sober marine engineers in the Poole area, combined with an excess of work). You did correctly ID the box, and when I downloaded the service manual, it is identical to the diagrams and the operating link is the one in the black and white picture. 

 

Question about hydraulic box heat exchangers:

Is it possible to remove the normal heat exchanger and fit a normal oil cooler. Yes I know they are bigger units, but it does simplify the plumbing side of things for a keel or radiator cooled diesel ??

 

 

 

All hydraulic gearboxes apart from the Lister LH150 which is not suitable for a BMC engine need some form of oil cooling. Most use a heat exchanger but I think TMP pass raw water through galleries in the alloy case. Please do not even think about a TMP box if you have the PRM. 

 

Oil coolers and heat exchangers work in the same way but convention has it that heat exchangers pass heat from coolant to raw (sea) water while oil coolers do the same for engine or gearbox oil. If you have been asking about gearbox heat exchangers you may very well get some odd replies. At one stage Beta put a gearbox oil cooler core inside the heat exchanger cum exhaust manifold, casing.

 

The gearbox oil cooler you have is perfectly adequate if you have a raw water supply but if you do not then I suspect the water connections are so small they will restrict the larger water flows needed for keel or tank cooling. If you look at the oil coolers on both the ASAP and Midland Chandlers sites you will see that they have rubber end caps and by changing those you can fit a variety of water supply port sizes. I have been trying to tell you that for what seems like months.

 

PRM state the maximum gearbox oil operating temperature and possibly a minimum so as long as you cooling device is adequate you can fit whatever you want but stick to calling it an oil cooler. If it is too large it might over cool the gearbox oil but I don't see that being a major problem compared with under cooling. As  guide, as long as it is of similar dimensions to the one you have and not much larger it should do the job.

 

I have been unable to understand exactly what you want to do with the cooling system and to spend the minimum we need to know a lot more about the exhaust manifold and crankshaft pulley(s) but at present it seems tank or keel cooling with a dry exhaust is likely to be the cheapest option because you won't have to buy a raw water pump etc, but you may have to  buy a heat exchanger with larger water ports. If you go for indirect raw water (heat exchanger) cooling you may have to buy a new manifold as well as the pump. I can not advise direct raw water cooling for a BMC nowadays.

 

Now a bodge that just might save you some money if you decide to go keel, tank cooling or wet exhaust. I think that you may find that the rubber end caps on the modern oil cooler will fit your oil cooler body so if you cut the tapered ends off the cooler you could get larger  water ports for the cost of four worm drive hose clips and two rubber end caps - why four clips? Two at each end because there may be nothing for a hose clip to grip onto so two on a parallel body is better than one. I would need extensive sea trials to make sure the core did not restrict the flow.

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Thought?....is the OPs concern based on not being able to engage drive with the engine stopped?......Says,(maybe) the engine /box is on a pallet?......I also skim through and see snippets like "boat sunk"....."owner decd".....are the events connected?

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Thanks for that and I've already taken a look at the ASAP box oil cooler with the bigger end caps, so that it can be used in the same cooling circuit.  In maintenance terms I will change the box oil filter, and the oil, BUT I will ask Liqui Moly for an opinion about which oil to use, as I've never know them give a biased opinion, in terms of recommending the most profitable, or not replying correctly. 

 

I would note that it might be a bad idea to use the same oil in a hydraulic gearbox as the engine if it is not of the same type with similar additives as those in the list. The additives in an engine oil do not work in an oil used in a gearbox, partly because the Zinc anti wear additive needs to bake on, and the Moly friction modifier that is not an essential additive, can cause a hydraulic box to slip slightly. The Newage BMC box oil list includes Mobil Delvac, BUT that old version was very different in additive terms.

 

I plan to fit a box oil temp sensor, probably in the form of a thermocouple stuck on the sump, unless there is a better location for a normal sensor.

 

The exhaust manifold might be an issue, in terms of requiring an adapter, as it is smaller than the stainless hose to the silencer and flapper outlet. Need to move the engine, but no luck with finding an engine hoist so far. The storage facility has one, but can't get it on their trailer, to allow me to off load etc. 

 

 

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Just been looking at my ASAP catalogue, and they do make a whole set of different end caps for box oil coolers/heat exchangers, so no need to bodge it to match hose size.

 

Has anyone simplified the box oil cooling issue by fitting a car or truck oil cooler that just uses air ??

 

Might not be realistic in financial terms, as I looked at a few oil coolers in Fleabay, and they were rather expensive. I'm still trying to think of ways of simplifying the keel cooling circuit.

 

Took a look at the need for a gearbox temp sensor, and ASAP do have a single gauge cylinder head temp gauge with a bolt on temp sensor. The range is 20 to 100C, which might seem OK, but not really sure what they were really trying to indicate. Anyone know what the score is in calibration terms ??

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One oil cooler I do know about that is water to oil,small compact unit, is the one used on the 82 Ford D1414 truck..........I also pulled a water /oil cooler +filter base unit off a IH Neuss motor I scrapped ........I suspect the heat load for a box isnt great ,and a simple hand bent coil of copper pipe submerged in the cooling circuit would do.....

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6 hours ago, john.k said:

One oil cooler I do know about that is water to oil,small compact unit, is the one used on the 82 Ford D1414 truck..........I also pulled a water /oil cooler +filter base unit off a IH Neuss motor I scrapped ........I suspect the heat load for a box isnt great ,and a simple hand bent coil of copper pipe submerged in the cooling circuit would do.....

 

I think you are right because TMP (I think) and Velvet drive reduction boxes used water galleries in the cases. However such a coil would have to be in the cold, return, part of the keel cooler system, not the hot part as it seems Beta tried.

 

I can't work out what is so complicated about a tank or keel cooled cooling system as long as the manifold cum header tank and any oil coolers are the right ones for the job. The jury is still out on the particular manifold TNLI has bought so he may need another one of those as well.

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On 04/11/2021 at 08:48, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think you are right because TMP (I think) and Velvet drive reduction boxes used water galleries in the cases. However such a coil would have to be in the cold, return, part of the keel cooler system, not the hot part as it seems Beta tried.

 

I can't work out what is so complicated about a tank or keel cooled cooling system as long as the manifold cum header tank and any oil coolers are the right ones for the job. The jury is still out on the particular manifold TNLI has bought so he may need another one of those as well.

Why would I have to change the manifold ??

 

I know the size will be different to the stainless flexible tubing and muffler box, but it's easy to buy fairly cheap adapters. There is a water injection port, but I should be able to tap a thread into it to seal it up with a bolt. I will see what is available once I've got access to the engine and looked at the choices of hose and muffler boxes, just in case I can match them up. 

Edited by TNLI
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The advantage of having hot water in the gearbox oil cooler is the box quickly attains operating temperature ,and is sufficiently hot to eliminate water /condensation .The heat load of a hydraulic box is small ,just the energy consumed in the pump and small churning losses in the box.............The tractor version of the Velvetdrive has a torque converter,and the heat exchanger used is not large .

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11 hours ago, TNLI said:

Why would I have to change the manifold ??

 

I know the size will be different to the stainless flexible tubing and muffler box, but it's easy to buy fairly cheap adapters. There is a water injection port, but I should be able to tap a thread into it to seal it up with a bolt. I will see what is available once I've got access to the engine and looked at the choices of hose and muffler boxes, just in case I can match them up. 

 

The simple answer is because until we can see the ports we don't know how many there are or how large they are. If you are happy machining old aluminium then I am sure you can fabricate bolt on ports. If you finally decide to go for heat exchanger cooling then that manifold does not look as if it has provision for a heat exchanger core, but I may be wrong about that. I am about 75% sure it will be fine for direct raw water cooling or for heat exchanger cooling with a separate heat exchanger, but from what I can see I strongly suspect that the ports may not be large enough for keel/tank cooling.We just have to wait and see. For keel/tank cooling with a dry exhaust you need  two ports in the manifolds at least as large as the inlet to the engine water pump.

 

You did state that you are building to the lifeboat regulations but I can not see them being less stringent, safety wise, that the Boat Safety Scheme and that requires exhaust manifolds to have a water jacket or be wrapped in insulating material to prevent dangers from what could be a red hot manifold. Hence my belief that the manifold will have to have a water jacket and with keel/tank cooling the easiest way is to include it in the cooling circuit - as long as the ports allow sufficient coolant flow.

 

 

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