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COP 26 Announcement that 'New Gas Boilers' will be banned from 2035


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1 hour ago, MoominPapa said:

All the energy efficiency mandates for homes so far have been applied via  the building regulations, and building regulations don't apply to boats, so the precedent says that this won't directly affect boats.

 

 

MP.

But if the donestic house market disappears, will the remaing boat, caravan, motor home etc. market be big enough to sustain a manufacturing industry for gas boilers?

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1 hour ago, agg221 said:

 

If you look at battery chemistry as Wh/kg which is the usual comparative measure, and particularly important for transport where the lighter the better as it corrresponds to range or payload, current generation Tesla batteries which are about the state of the art are around 280Wh/kg. Experimental versions of Li-based batteries have got up to around 350Wh/kg and 400Wh/kg is feasible. This is the incremental change which would help but would not result in a paradigm shift.

 

In parallel, there are other battery chemistries which are known that can achieve 1500Wh/kg

But the corresponding figures for the liquid hydrocarbon fuels we currently use are in the range 12,000-13,000 Wh/kg i.e. 10-40 times higher. So battery technology has a loooong way to go to be viable for long distance transport applications like intercontinental flight. 

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Just now, David Mack said:

But the corresponding figures for the liquid hydrocarbon fuels we currently use are in the range 12,000-13,000 Wh/kg i.e. 10-40 times higher. So battery technology has a loooong way to go to be viable for long distance transport applications like intercontinental flight. 

It never will be.

 

Battery technology will never hit the figures of liquid hydrocarbon fuels, but it may become adequate to not be annoying for personal cars and small vans, and probably low power demand boats too, possibly up to and including canal boats. It may be adequate for short haul powered flight.

 

Everything else (rail, international shipping, intercontinental flight etc) is going to need something far more energy rich due to the range. Hydrogen and liquid ammonia seem to currently be the favourites as they do not create carbon emissions. Hydrocarbon fuels are still possible if they are bio-derived but as MtB has pointed out, they are substitutional on land-use. This is probably not a wholesale issue - I live in an arable area and it is notable that quite a few fields have lain fallow for the past few years as the cost of production outweighs the return, particularly when you remove subsidies from the total. We have 4.25 acres of arable (tiny I know) which means we are below the threshold area for subsidies. We used to have it contract farmed but have made a loss every year so for the past couple of years we have left it unused. For context, fully processed out to oil, it would in theory produce about 2000l per year.

 

Alec

 

 

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I've been watching Harry's farm on YouTube recently for a more informed view on the impact of the end of diesel usage in industry.  Electric powered fork lifts and diggers will not be viable he reckons.   He favours hydrogen power. 

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12 minutes ago, jake_crew said:

I've been watching Harry's farm on YouTube recently for a more informed view on the impact of the end of diesel usage in industry.  Electric powered fork lifts and diggers will not be viable he reckons.   He favours hydrogen power. 

 

There was a 'digger' video posted here some time ago.

Produced by JCB as an experiment to see if construction companies could manage with electric excavators.

 

It lasted about 3 hours, and was then connected to a huge diesel generator for many. many hours to recharge. It may comply with the regulations for vehicle emissions, but having to run the diesel genny seem to be negating all of the savings.

 

(Building sites, road construction sites etc will rarely have electricty so 'temporary portable power' - diesel generators - will always be needed).

 

They have productionised a small 1.9 tonne digger for use in residential settings and that seems to work well.

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Building sites, road construction sites etc will rarely have electricty so 'temporary portable power' - diesel generators - will always be needed).

Certainly that is current practice, but things may have to change in future. For all except the most remote sites it would not necessarily be too difficult to introduce temporary cabled supplies from the nearest suitable grid connection. (Or to get the permanent power connection in before the start of construction, rather than towards the end).

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The electric JCB is quite a good story. It was originally only built as a concept demonstrator but proved so popular that it went into production. It wins for reducing noise in residential areas which reduces complaints and allows earlier/later working, and also because you can run it indoors. One of the big markets initially was the excavation of basement extensions in London, often down several floors, as there are no fumes to deal with. We had one of the early demonstrators on site when we ran an electrification demonstration even a few years ago. It tracked down our main corridor over the tiles with no issues.

 

Fork-lifts are one of the very longstanding electric vehicles - a large factory in Peterborough which has been going for decades. Milk floats used to be the same.

 

Battery vehicles work very well when there is a relatively low range and duty cycle requirement which is predictable. They are much less effective when you want to travel unpredictable distances and run for extended periods. Tractors would be an issue, as will larger construction plant.

 

Alec

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

The root problem is it originates from crops IIRC, so production in any worthwhile volume will compete for agricultural land with food production. I think I can imagine which will win.

I agree it would not be good for crops grown for fuel to compete with food crops . I understand HVO uses spent cooking oil  as  well as residue from crops that would otherwise go to waste .  Providing  that is all managed responsibly that is fine.  The volume available may well be an issue .

However I do think the use of HVO in boats seems like  a good fit .

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There was a 'digger' video posted here some time ago.

Produced by JCB as an experiment to see if construction companies could manage with electric excavators.

 

It lasted about 3 hours, and was then connected to a huge diesel generator for many. many hours to recharge. It may comply with the regulations for vehicle emissions, but having to run the diesel genny seem to be negating all of the savings.

 

(Building sites, road construction sites etc will rarely have electricty so 'temporary portable power' - diesel generators - will always be needed).

 

They have productionised a small 1.9 tonne digger for use in residential settings and that seems to work well.

 

I've invented a zero emission digging machine. Doesn't need diesel, or an electricity supply on site. Wonder if I can get JCB interested?

 

Aa_shovel01.jpg.947dd5a11099f1c6bfc3472a4815cf9a.jpg

By Anthony Appleyard (talk) - I (Anthony Appleyard (talk)) created this work entirely by myself.Transferred from en.wikipedia, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=18047175

 

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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4 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

 

I've invented a zero emission digging machine. Doesn't need diesel, or an electricity supply on site. Wonder if I can get JCB interested?

 

Aa_shovel01.jpg.947dd5a11099f1c6bfc3472a4815cf9a.jpg

By Anthony Appleyard (talk) - I (Anthony Appleyard (talk)) created this work entirely by myself.Transferred from en.wikipedia, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=18047175

 

 

Point of Order M'Lud. 

 

Thats a shovel not a spade. You need a spade for digging, not a shovel. 

 

A common rookie mistake! 

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8 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I've invented a zero emission digging machine.

 

I'm not sure that you could make that claim (even if it was a digging machine and not a shovelling machine) as the machine operator would be emitting large volumes of CO2 which is one of the worst gases for climate change (unless you want to drink beer or package food - then we need all we can get)

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I'm not sure that you could make that claim (even if it was a digging machine and not a shovelling machine) as the machine operator would be emitting large volumes of CO2 which is one of the worst gases for climate change (unless you want to drink beer or package food - then we need all we can get)

 

Not sure that is right. 

 

Methane AIUI is 15 times more potent than CO2 and some of the obsolete refrigerants are thousands of times worse. 

 

The prob with CO2 is it takes a helluvalot of it to make a difference, which is exactly what we've pumped into the atmosphere before we realised there was any problem. 

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18 minutes ago, MtB said:

Methane AIUI is 15 times more potent than CO2 and some of the obsolete refrigerants are thousands of times worse. 

 

Very true, but many times more CO2 is produced by breathing than Methane by cows farting.

 

The 2020 figures are affected by the lack of travel etc due to covid.

 

The 'others' are falling faster than the CO2 is, therefore we need to do less physical work and slow down our breathing, or knock-off half of the population.

 

 

 1086558651_Screenshot(645).png.4ccc752a946169a2fef3cdf836f41652.png

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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35 minutes ago, MtB said:

The prob with CO2 is it takes a helluvalot of it to make a difference, which is exactly what we've pumped into the atmosphere before we realised there was any problem. 

Once in the atmosphere, CO2 can stay there for a long time. Methane is a much more effective greenhouse gas, but degrades faster than CO2 is removed.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/jan/16/greenhouse-gases-remain-air

The nastier CFC's that were banned in the '90's have now mostly gone from the atmosphere. So much so that when a  few factories in China started naughtily using them again a couple of years ago it was noticeable to people measuring levels in the atmosphere outside the country and the factories concerned were caught.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48353341

54 minutes ago, MtB said:

Thats a shovel not a spade. You need a spade for digging, not a shovel. 

I believe in calling a shovel a spade. 😀

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48 minutes ago, Jerra said:

You're showing your age!

My Dad told me about him:D.......I think he may have been in 'The Easgge'* comic when I was a boy.

 

 

*A comic aimed at boys who found writing the word "Eagle" difficult.

Edited by Athy
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5 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Mind you the gas regs apply to "dwellings" rather than buildings, so legislation drafted to ban gas boilers might well apply to dwellings rather than just buildings.  

Yebut the gas regs don't AFAIK have anything to say about energy efficiency or carbon emissions, they cover installation standards and safety. The energy efficiency stuff is all in part L of the buildin regs.

 

MP.

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5 hours ago, agg221 said:

I would say evolved rather than fundamentally changed.

 

The swing to the Conservatives in North East since then has seen a shift in emphasis from Liverpool and Manchester towards Teesside which is now both a Freeport and a Hydrogen Hub. A new site has also been added in South Wales.

 

There are several different aspects to hydrogen. Hydrogen goes by various colour names depending on source. Brown hydrogen is made by heating water and coke together, forming a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen (the old towns gas) and is still industrially significant, particularly on Teesside. Green hydrogen is made by electrolysis of water and is seen as clean and sustainable, so long as you are using surplus renewable electricity to make it. Blue hydrogen is the same but specifically made using offshore wind turbines.

 

Leaving aside the challenges for the moment, and they are considerable, the planned applications are where you need a higher energy density than can be delivered with battery storage. Current areas of interest include rail, flight and shipping, and possibly heavy road haulage. The question is how you use it, which is in part a matter of semantics but it is actually at the heart of one of the current areas of debate. If you burn hydrogen, either for domestic heat or to run an internal combustion engine, it is very simple and cost-effective at point of use, but whilst it creates no carbon emissions it does emit nitrous oxides as the oxygen and nitrogen react at temperature. This NOx is nowhere near as significant a greenhouse gas as carbon based gases but it is still there. The alternative is to use a fuel cell for motive power and rely on electrical heating but this has major technical and commercial barriers - the fuel cell uses enough platinum for this to be infeasible to scale to the current requirements (my first job was developing fuel cell catalysts for Johnson Matthey). Therefore, what it comes down to is whether targets are defined as 'net zero carbon emissions' or 'net zero emissions' and if the latter whether offsetting the NOx emissions is deemed acceptable. It's a political debate and I personally have little interest in what the decision is, but I will probably be part of working out how to implement it so I do take a significant interest in knowing where the thinking ends up.

 

Alec

Wrong for the classification of Hydrogen blue hydrogen comes from natural gas with carbon capture, green hydrogen is made from renewable energy. Grey hydrogen is what is mostly what is produced today, its made from natural gas without carbon capture so its filthy.

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6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are Liveaboards "homes" ?

Are instaneous heaters included ?

Presumably the manufacture of gas water heaters will cease and they will become unavailable, irrespective of whether the law covers boats or not.

As the time draws near, maybe buy a couple of "Morco's" so you can keep up & running

 

 

 

In 13 years time will people still be wanting to fit gas boilers to boats

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Very true, but many times more CO2 is produced by breathing than Methane by cows farting.

 

The 2020 figures are affected by the lack of travel etc due to covid.

 

The 'others' are falling faster than the CO2 is, therefore we need to do less physical work and slow down our breathing, or knock-off half of the population.

 

 

 1086558651_Screenshot(645).png.4ccc752a946169a2fef3cdf836f41652.png

 

Methane slip from natural gas is a substantial problem to say the least 

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3 hours ago, MartynG said:

I agree it would not be good for crops grown for fuel to compete with food crops . I understand HVO uses spent cooking oil  as  well as residue from crops that would otherwise go to waste .  Providing  that is all managed responsibly that is fine.  The volume available may well be an issue .

However I do think the use of HVO in boats seems like  a good fit .

 

 

Actually I think you're right, and this is very good news. The sheer volume of old cooking oil from fish and chip shops and the restaurant/hotel industry must be massive. And most of it vegetable oil already. 

 

 

Mind you, the F&C shop in Ludgershall still seems to be using the same oil their fryers they started with back in 1986. I had the most horrid F&C from there the other month, had to throw it away, I'm still reeling! 

 

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2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Actually I think you're right, and this is very good news. The sheer volume of old cooking oil from fish and chip shops and the restaurant/hotel industry must be massive. And most of it vegetable oil already. 

 

 

Mind you, the F&C shop in Ludgershall still seems to be using the same oil their fryers they started with back in 1986. I had the most horrid F&C from there the other month, had to throw it away, I'm still reeling! 

 

At the moment most is already collected for biodiesel and it finds its way into standard diesel as the bio content Mike. We have a plant in Rotherham, I used it for many years but recently they have had nowt for sale. 

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Wrong for the classification of Hydrogen blue hydrogen comes from natural gas with carbon capture, green hydrogen is made from renewable energy. Grey hydrogen is what is mostly what is produced today, its made from natural gas without carbon capture so its filthy.

Interesting - we are using a different classification.


Alec

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