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How do you know if some one owns the boat that you want to buy?


Brian 65

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Hi I am looking at boat to buy my first boat and have seen one that I like. It is up for quick sale and seems a reasonable price. How do I know that this is their boat, as a lot of liveaboards do not stay in one place. Is there a way to find out as a lot of boats do not seem to have any form of ownership documentation?

 

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Very few 'inland waterways boats' have any documentation or evidence of ownership paperwork, in theory all boats should have their 'ships documents' available, these consist, as a minimum, of the original sales invoice, all the following bills of sale, a proof of VAT paid certificate and, if built post 1998 all of the RCD compliance paperwork and manuals.

Boats can be registered on the Governments 'Small Ships Register' but inland waterway boats rarely are.

 

Paperwork is generally not a strong point on the canals.

 

Employing a Solicitor is a waste of time and money as they cannot find out anything more than you can - there is no central registration system for canal boats.

 

All you can look for is :

History of receipts

Boat log of maintenance, oil changes etc, 

History of licences, insurance etc paid for - check the name on the letters is the same as that of the person selling.

ID of the seller, is the photo correct, do the names match the boat papers ?

Chat to the seller, - why is he selling ? Family problems .............. ?

 

Make a note of his/her name and address, take a picture of him/her and his/her car number plate - it may not help, but its worth having.

 

Very few boats are stolen and sold on, but it has happened.

Do as much research as you can, because if you do buy a boat which is not theirs to sell then it does not belong to you, the proper owner comes on the scene and you lose both the boat and your money. Often it is as a result of a domestic dispute when (for example) 'the wife' sells 'the husbands boat'

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I have paperwork with my boat. But it's a sea going boat and this is normal.

Remarkably  it seems more common for narrowboats to have no paperwork. 

 

But you must be careful as boats have been known to be advertised by scammers.

 

There will be some evidence of ownership such as the owner may have kept his receipts/certificates  for insurance or canal licences or can show you his C&RT license records online  for example ? If no such evidence is available walk away.

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10 minutes ago, MartynG said:

But you must be careful as boats have been known to be advertised by scammers.

There has been at least one scam web site impersonating a legitimate boat selling/brokering business with boat details scraped from other sites, "selling" boats at below market rates. You have to do some background research on brokers as well as private sellers. Make sure everything stacks up. Beware of attempts to pressure you in to a quick sale. Listen to the nagging doubts. If it is too good to be true, it is.

Most people are good and honest, but that proportion goes down when money is involved. There is a small percentage of scum bags in all aspects of their lives though.

 

Jen

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I would have thought if he's living on it, and appears to have done so for a while, knows a bit about the boat and has a few licence demands and safety certs, then it's pretty unlikely it aint his.

There's no proof, really, but equally there's no proof anyone else does  either. Buy it, register it, if you're still worried change the name, repaint it, and who's going to argue?

I bought mine on a handshake ,a bagfull of cash for a deposit, a cheque and a scribbled receipt. It was there when I went back to pick it up and no-one's asked for it back yet.

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2 hours ago, Brian 65 said:

Is there a way to find out as a lot of boats do not seem to have any form of ownership documentation?

 

Frankly, no there isn't. You have to take a chance, or don't buy a boat.

 

You can however, load the dice in your favour by taking a step back and looking at the whole situation. Does the seller seem to know the boat intimately inside and out? A scammer or boat thief is unlikely to immediately know the answers to questions like "can I see the bilge pump please?" or "where is the diesel tank?", or "what colour and brand of paint is the boat painted with?" 

 

Nor are they likely to have a sheaf of invoices for work done or letters from CRT addressed to them personally, using the name they used when introducing themselves at the start of your enquiry about their boat for sale. Or on their driving license or passport, should you be inclined to ask to see them.

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2 minutes ago, Mike Tee said:

One request that gets the scammers twitching - 'Do you mind if I take your picture?'

 

Good idea!

 

Especially if combined with a request to see a passport or driving license, both of which will have a name and photo of said purported owner.

(Which can then be compared with name on correspondence from CRT.)

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

Especially if combined with a request to see a passport or driving license, both of which will have a name and photo of said purported owner.

Not necessarily! My driving licence doesn't have my photo on it, and there must be quite a few other old paper licences still out there.

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Just now, David Mack said:

Indeed it does. It's the only photo id I can produce when I am required to provide evidence of my identity.

 

So as an easy answer to the OP, it seems that a passport with a photo matching them and the name they gave on first responding to their advert, coupled with sight of some correspondence from CRT addressed to that same name, would give a pretty good indication that the seller is legit, IMO.

 

Not 100% proof, but this would be good enough an indication for me. 

 

 

 

 

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Having completed our first purchase of a boat a month ago (the previous two having been a nominal pound which doesn't really count), and done so as a private purchase, the following observations might help:

 

The absence of paperwork seems to be normal. As has been stated above, Something from CRT addressed to the same name as the owner gives is a reasonable indication. Other indications are whether they have had work done on it, in which case there may be invoices in their name. Ours wasn't a liveaboard so we had a name and physical address for the paperwork, which we independently verified (it is quite easy to find things out about people these days via the internet). The photo-ID matching the name would be a good alternative. Timelines are also a help - if they have paperwork going back a few years then the odds are that it would have been identified as stolen by then - most people will miss a boat in a matter of days or weeks, not years.

 

A Bill of Sale is uncommon for privately sold canal boats, but really easy to create from the RYA template. What it essentially declares is that any issues pre-dating your purchase are the previous owner's problem and anything after your purchase date is your problem. It therefore protects both parties. Specific statements in the declaration are around any finance owing, so like a HPI check on a car. Although the debt would still transfer to you, their declaration that there isn't one would hold good in court if you sued them for the money back - messy I know but the sums involved would probably justify it.

 

Something which is easy with a broker but harder with a private sale is to avoid a point in time where one party (buyer or seller) holds all the cards. If you turn up with a bag of cash, the seller counts it in front of you, signs a receipt and hands you the keys then the problem does not arise. One equivalent option we came up with was both sitting at a table and making a bank transfer online so when the seller saw it in their account they handed over the receipt. The problem is whether your bank's security system flags it as a high value transfer and blocks it, in which case it can take a while to sort out. What I did was identify the threshold which triggered this (by ringing my bank and asking them) and breaking it down into a series of payments that fell below the total. I also transferred a nominal pound first, which the seller verified had arrived, just in case of any data errors. In practice, the seller completed the bill of sale and posted it back to us before I transferred any money, so technically he took the risk - I'm not sure he realised he was doing so, even when we explained what it was.

 

Something we didn't pick up on, and wish we had. When a boat transfers to a broker's, generally it is then being sold 'as viewed'. That means there is very little doubt as to what is/is not part of the sale. When a boat remains in private hands, you can't assume that everything will be staying on it. This can (from personal experience) get annoying. We noticed between a first and second viewing that some things had been removed. I explicitly asked (by email so a written record) for a list of what else was to be removed and got the reply of a kettle and other personal effects but when we turned up to take it away, various other items which I would regard as part of the boat (chimney, tiller bar and pin, fiddle-rail from the Epping stove, a couple of engine-related items etc) had gone. On querying this, we were told that they did not belong to the seller so he had given them back to their owners. This was at the very least misleading - not hugely valuable but probably £200-£300 of things to replace and some of them were very irritating as they reduced the functionality of the boat until we sorted them out. An inventory is a way around this and for a mostly empty boat would work fine, but for a liveaboard which is still being lived in that could get tricky to itemise everything.

 

It would certainly be easier if I do this again to complete the sale standing by the boat and immediately get the receipt and keys in my hand. All parties would then be clear.


Alec

 

 

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Thank you for all your replies and very useful information. I have looked at a few boats, but being my first I do not want to spend a great deal as I am happy to do it up and accept that it may need some maintenance below water which I could not do. I also think if I get a bigger boat that I will not want to go bigger later and go through this again. 

This is the boat.

Harborough 50 Semi Trad for sale UK, Harborough boats for sale, Harborough used boat sales, Harborough Narrow Boats For Sale 50ft Semi Traditional Narrowboat (semi-project) MUST SELL THIS WEEK - Apollo Duck

I have already asked what caused the water damage, but they have not come back yet.

 

 

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OK, so you are buying without a survey. There is a risk with that, and you are clearly aware of this. What I would pick up on is that the last full survey was 5yrs ago. I would be wanting to see a copy of that on the basis that any problems then have probably only got worse. It is also reaching that age where some insurers will want a hull survey (for anything more than third party only, which is legal but risky).

 

I would want to take it out for a run, check that the engine doesn't smoke too much or get too hot and that it engages forwards and reverse properly.

I would want to know what caused the water damage.

I would be budgeting a significant contingency for repairs to the steelwork, but if there is no sign that it is leaking at the moment I wouldn't be worried in the short term, as long as the price reflected this.

They state they are open to offers - I would be very mindful of that, and that it is not a great time of year to be selling, and see what I could get it for - if they came down to £18k I would personally be very happy to take the risk.

I would be looking at booking a survey asap after purchase, using that to open up options on insurance and also to understand what actually -needs- doing, rather than just what you can see.

 

Beyond that, as a project boat and accepting it for what it is, I wouldn't be unhappy with it if I otherwise liked it.

 

(personal opinions of someone with limited knowledge)

 

Alec

 

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17 minutes ago, Brian 65 said:

Thank you for all your replies and very useful information. I have looked at a few boats, but being my first I do not want to spend a great deal as I am happy to do it up and accept that it may need some maintenance below water which I could not do. I also think if I get a bigger boat that I will not want to go bigger later and go through this again. 

This is the boat.

Harborough 50 Semi Trad for sale UK, Harborough boats for sale, Harborough used boat sales, Harborough Narrow Boats For Sale 50ft Semi Traditional Narrowboat (semi-project) MUST SELL THIS WEEK - Apollo Duck

I have already asked what caused the water damage, but they have not come back yet.

 

 

 

Do you realise that dues to its age you are going to need a full out of the water survey to be able to insure it 'fully comp' ?

 

It would be preferable to have it done as part of the buying process and then you will have the surveyors report to give you a guide as to what it is REALLY valued at and what work needs doing.

You will be very very unlikely to find a surveyor who will 'drop everything' and come in the next couple of days, so will be unable to meet the sellers demands of a sale 'this week'.

 

I am always dubious of sellers of 30 year old boats saying must go this week - why - is it on the verge of sinking ? is it just a ploy to get a desperate buyer to buy it without a survey ? Why didn't they advertise it a month or two ago, few things in life would result in having to sell up in a week.

 

If it was outside of London it would be a £15,000 boat with all its unknowns.

A 5 year old survey is worthless - a boat can go from a 'good steel thickness' to sinking in less than 2 years.

 

I'd be very very careful with this boat - in that price bracket and at that age you could easily be looking to spend another £5000 or even £10000 in the next couple of years.

Save up a bit more cash and get into the next bracket up and get a 'good' boat.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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6 minutes ago, agg221 said:

OK, so you are buying without a survey. There is a risk with that, and you are clearly aware of this. What I would pick up on is that the last full survey was 5yrs ago. I would be wanting to see a copy of that on the basis that any problems then have probably only got worse. It is also reaching that age where some insurers will want a hull survey (for anything more than third party only, which is legal but risky).

 

I would want to take it out for a run, check that the engine doesn't smoke too much or get too hot and that it engages forwards and reverse properly.

I would want to know what caused the water damage.

I would be budgeting a significant contingency for repairs to the steelwork, but if there is no sign that it is leaking at the moment I wouldn't be worried in the short term, as long as the price reflected this.

They state they are open to offers - I would be very mindful of that, and that it is not a great time of year to be selling, and see what I could get it for - if they came down to £18k I would personally be very happy to take the risk.

I would be looking at booking a survey asap after purchase, using that to open up options on insurance and also to understand what actually -needs- doing, rather than just what you can see.

 

Beyond that, as a project boat and accepting it for what it is, I wouldn't be unhappy with it if I otherwise liked it.

 

(personal opinions of someone with limited knowledge)

 

Alec

 

Thank you yes a lot to think about.

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Do you realise that dues to its age you are going to need a full out of the water survey to be able to insure it 'fully comp' ?

 

It would be preferable to have it done as part of the buying process and then you will have the surveyors report to give you a guide as to what it is REALLY valued at and what work needs doing.

You will be very very unlikely to find a surveyor who will 'drop everything' and come in the next couple of days, so will be unable to meet the sellers demands of a sale 'this week'.

 

I am always dubious of sellers of 30 year old boats saying must go this week - why - is it on the verge of sinking ? is it just a ploy to get a desperate buyer to buy it without a survey ? Why didn't they advertise it a month or two ago, few things in life would result in having to sell up in a week.

 

If it was outside of London it would be a £15,000 boat with all its unknowns.

A 5 year old survey is worthless - a boat can go from a 'good steel thickness' to sinking in less than 2 years.

 

I'd be very very careful with this boat - in that price bracket and at that age you could easily be looking to spend another £5000 or even £10000 in the next couple of years.

Save up a bit more cash and get into the next bracket up and get a 'good' boat.

Yes You are probably correct in what you say as I have no experience yet. A survey would change everything. The cost of a out of the water survey is? and takes how long? Yes best to spend ??? £ than get a fright later.

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2 minutes ago, Brian 65 said:

The cost of a out of the water survey is?

 

Probably about £4-500 for the surveyor plus the cost of the lift-out and lift back in.

 

I'd budget for £800-£1000 then hopefully you'll get some 'change'

 

A good survey will take 5 or 6 hours, a 'bad' survey 15 minutes.

 

You will need to find a marina that can lift it out, you will need to arrange for the seller to take it to that marina (and then back again) and you will need to find a good surveyor that is available.

The hard part will be co-ordinating all three of them (Marina / Owner / Surveyor)

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Probably about £4-500 for the surveyor plus the cost of the lift-out and lift back in.

 

I'd budget for £800-£1000 then hopefully you'll get some 'change'

 

A good survey will take 5 or 6 hours, a 'bad' survey 15 minutes.

 

You will need to find a marina that can lift it out, you will need to arrange for the seller to take it to that marina (and then back again) and you will need to find a good surveyor that is available.

The hard part will be co-ordinating all three of them (Marina / Owner / Surveyor)

And to get all that done in the next week is very unlikely

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36 minutes ago, Brian 65 said:

Thank you for all your replies and very useful information. I have looked at a few boats, but being my first I do not want to spend a great deal as I am happy to do it up and accept that it may need some maintenance below water which I could not do. I also think if I get a bigger boat that I will not want to go bigger later and go through this again. 

This is the boat.

Harborough 50 Semi Trad for sale UK, Harborough boats for sale, Harborough used boat sales, Harborough Narrow Boats For Sale 50ft Semi Traditional Narrowboat (semi-project) MUST SELL THIS WEEK - Apollo Duck

I have already asked what caused the water damage, but they have not come back yet.

 

 

This is a difficult one. The boat is keenly priced for the current market, and looks to be well presented as far as I can see from the photos. The main risks are a maybe thin hull which could need significant work, and the lack of photos of the engine and other systems.

The water damage at the stern could be indicative of the boat having been previously neglected and allowed to fill with rainwater to above floor level, or it could be a consequence of something worse.

A full out of water survey would be ideal, but is a significant cost for a boat of this value, and doesn't seem to be an option here anyway. 

I would suggest that you ask for a trial run, so you can see that the engine performs OK (doesn't sound like a bag of spanners or smoke excessively). Check all the systems work (I.e. does water flow when you turn on a tap, does the loo flush, do all the lights work, etc.)

And if possible take an experienced boater with you, who can bring another point of view, suggest questions to ask of the seller , and maybe answer some of your queries.

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Water damage to the back 2m of the floor is almost certainly that the bilge under the cabin floor has filled with water. If this has come from a water leak on the plumbing, its  a heck of a lot of water to fill the bilge.  More likely its a hull leak, most Harbourer boats have a wet bilge with the front deck draining to under the floor, the bilge pump in the stern is supposed to pump it overboard. 

 

I would be VERY suspicious that this boat has started to sink.

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