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Refusal of licences.


waterworks

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Something for the archives, some people believe CRT can refuse to issue a standard licence until other fees or charges are paid, this puts an end to that. Obviously there is no such thing as a " mooring licence" but we'll overlook that. 

 

"Good Afternoon xxxxx
 
Thank you for contacting us, and please accept my apologies for the delay in getting back to you.
 
I have spoken with our Legal team to obtain some clarification in regards to your enquiry. 
It has been advised that the document is referring to a mooring licence, and not a boat licence, as we are unable to withhold the issue of a boat licence due to outstanding fees under the British Waterways Act 1995, as you correctly stated.
 
I do hope this information helps, and once again please accept my apologies for the delay in getting back to you.
 
Kind Regards
 

Shannon Crofts

Customer Service Administrator"

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Looking at the the CRT website, they mention licences for the following purposes

 

(1) Long Term

(2) Short Term

(3) Gold

(4) Continuous Cruising

 

But as to mooring that is not clear.  Where CRT own residential moorings, presumably there should be some some of licence or is it classed as a separate charge?

 

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6 hours ago, waterworks said:

Obviously there is no such thing as a " mooring licence" but we'll overlook that. 

 

I have seen many examples of what looks like a standard license, but printed over a capital 'M'. I had always thought that these meant that the owner of the boat had paid for a CRT permanent mooring spot.

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12 minutes ago, Col_T said:

 

I have seen many examples of what looks like a standard license, but printed over a capital 'M'. I had always thought that these meant that the owner of the boat had paid for a CRT permanent mooring spot.

Technically, I think it's a mooring permit. They don't issue them any more. It was always generally known as a mooring licence.  You had them at EOG moorings as well as CRT ones. There can be a difference in law between a licence and a permit,  but for all intents and purposes they're the same. They both let you do something you wouldn't be allowed to without them.

 

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8 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Technically, I think it's a mooring permit. They don't issue them any more.

The last one I had at this mooring was valid till 04/17 and is called a Permit on the reverse side. Although they stopped issuing the paper ones, the CaRT checkers who come round every few months will have which boats should be there on their tablets. There is, I believe a bylaw, or possibly even a legislation type law requirement to have a paper license displayed, which is probably the reason you still have to display these, despite the actual checking being boat name and index number against the database. Otherwise CaRT would no doubt abolish the paper licenses too.

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12 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The last one I had at this mooring was valid till 04/17 and is called a Permit on the reverse side. Although they stopped issuing the paper ones, the CaRT checkers who come round every few months will have which boats should be there on their tablets. There is, I believe a bylaw, or possibly even a legislation type law requirement to have a paper license displayed, which is probably the reason you still have to display these, despite the actual checking being boat name and index number against the database. Otherwise CaRT would no doubt abolish the paper licenses too.

I wonder how this will work for those who put mooring permits on houses to "bag" the adjoining stretch of towpath. 

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10 hours ago, waterworks said:

The question came about by this document explaining CRT mooring policies.  https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1127.pdf 

 

Para 14.7 says " outstanding charges must be settled before a licence or mooring permit can be renewed"

 

An interesting document, the last date in or on the document is 2012, is there a more up to date version?

14.8 ia another that needs a bit of clarification.  What happens inthe event of major breakdown, illness, etc?

Well worth a full read.

As MtB says, it is possible that 20% of boaters cause 80% of the admin work, how much of that work, if done correctly in the first place, would not have to be revisited?

 

Bod

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13 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Technically, I think it's a mooring permit. They don't issue them any more.

 

Don't they? Then what are the squares of paper, printed with a large M and the expiry date 10/22, dis[played in two portholes of our boat?

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38 minutes ago, Athy said:

Don't they? Then what are the squares of paper, printed with a large M and the expiry date 10/22, dis[played in two portholes of our boat?

Interesting. Thought they'd stopped them.

You've not tipexed  out the old date and written 10/22 on in felt tip by any chance? 😀

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11 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Interesting. Thought they'd stopped them.

You've not tipexed  out the old date and written 10/22 on in felt tip by any chance? 😀

You are correct, I have not.

They came attached to our licence/permit renewal letter, we just cut them off and stuck them in their little holders. That was last year though.

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1 minute ago, Athy said:

You are correct, I have not.

They came attached to our licence/permit renewal letter, we just cut them off and stuck them in their little holders. That was last year though.

 

How curious. I too have a CRT on-line mooring for one of my boats, and I've never been furnished by CRT with a square of paper bearing a letter "M". 

 

Have I been scammed? 

 

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52 minutes ago, Bod said:

 

As MtB says, it is possible that 20% of boaters cause 80% of the admin work, how much of that work, if done correctly in the first place, would not have to be revisited?

 

Bod

No comment on CRT specifically but from my fairly long experience dealing with customers complaints across a wide range of contracts I would suggest MTB has it spot on, it would be impossible to claim that none were justified in complaining about a service but some people are just impossible, I've walked away from meetings speechless with the outrageous demands.

One of the bigger problems with regular complaints from the same people is a level of fatigue from those dealing with them, if there is a long history of frivolous complaints it becomes easy to just dismiss it, I'm not saying this is ideal but I can understand it, with the obvious problem that a real problem can be missed

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10 minutes ago, Athy said:

You are correct, I have not.

They came attached to our licence/permit renewal letter, we just cut them off and stuck them in their little holders. That was last year though.

Definitely not came with mine this year. Can't remember last year, last week's hard enough.

I well recall Mr Dunkley telling us all in his own inimitable manner, when they were still fairly new, that mooring permits were illegal and that none of us should pay them. Surprisingly the courts disagreed.

Thinking that whether you call something a licence or a permit in normal speech is a matter of vital importance is essentially ridiculous. It may matter to a lawyer, probably because that's the kind of thing that makes them rich. As is quoting a nine year old document, hoping no-one notices the date (even if it should have been updated - or maybe it has. Who cares?)

The proper response to the original post is "So what?" Should we all be pleased that some people do their scrabbling best to avoid paying their way and leave everyone else to pick up the costs? And that you could just not pay your fees for years and there's no resource, apart from expensive and possibly pointless court action, for them to be pursued?

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

How curious. I too have a CRT on-line mooring for one of my boats, and I've never been furnished by CRT with a square of paper bearing a letter "M". 

 

Have I been scammed? 

 

Depending on what you've asked for, they might be attached to an annual email.  You can choose to print them yourself.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Definitely not came with mine this year. Can't remember last year, last week's hard enough.

I well recall Mr Dunkley telling us all in his own inimitable manner, when they were still fairly new, that mooring permits were illegal and that none of us should pay them. Surprisingly the courts disagreed.

Thinking that whether you call something a licence or a permit in normal speech is a matter of vital importance is essentially ridiculous. It may matter to a lawyer, probably because that's the kind of thing that makes them rich. As is quoting a nine year old document, hoping no-one notices the date (even if it should have been updated - or maybe it has. Who cares?)

The proper response to the original post is "So what?" Should we all be pleased that some people do their scrabbling best to avoid paying their way and leave everyone else to pick up the costs? And that you could just not pay your fees for years and there's no resource, apart from expensive and possibly pointless court action, for them to be pursued?

Your last paragraph, is that the same answer, that you would have given, if the late Nigel Moore had created the original post?

 

Bod.

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 Obviously refusal of a licence because of other fees that may be owed is unlawful not just an irrelevant use of words ( especially not to someone living aboard who's home is at risk ) 

 

My post does nothing more than confirm the truth of the matter.  

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1 hour ago, waterworks said:

 Obviously refusal of a licence because of other fees that may be owed is unlawful not just an irrelevant use of words ( especially not to someone living aboard who's home is at risk ) 

 

My post does nothing more than confirm the truth of the matter.  

The irrelevance to which I referred was that of confusing the use of words for a mooring licence/permit. Of course it is unlawful to refuse a licence because of other fees outstanding.

It is, however, not unlawful to refuse a licence because, due to past history of nonlicensed activity, and refusal to make reparations,  the board cannot be satisfied that the CC conditions will be met. That's why the point is largely academic, unless the person concerned can afford better lawyers than CRT, and if they could do that, they would probably have paid their bills.

If you live aboard,  it's possibly a better idea to pay one's dues, though I accept that these days that's a bit of a novel concept to some. Oddly enough, it works for those who live in houses, too. Playing with words rarely keeps a roof over one's head. Nor, often enough, does relying on an amateur's interpretation of the law.

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On 13/10/2021 at 10:10, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Interesting. Thought they'd stopped them.

You've not tipexed  out the old date and written 10/22 on in felt tip by any chance? 😀

 

Indeed, I have an EoG mooring and CRT haven't issued me with a paper mooring licence (permit) for a bout 3 years now.

 

Unfortunately we they still demand payment every May though.

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