Leeds & Liverpool breach

[phantom_iv]

On 16/10/2021 at 20:26, dmr said:

Keep hearing that a boater drained the summit so that he could avoid leaving the Rochdale/not have to CC. Is there any truth in this? My guess is its the same person (non boater) who raised a paddle on Longlees several times whilst we were "locked down" just below it.

 

Out of interest, is there still someone seemingly permanently moored on the water point below lock 46? He kindly did his best to drain the pound we were moored in to refloat his boat over the summer, despite CRT's assurances that they were running more water down from the summit and he'd be afloat by morning.

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

 

Out of interest, is there still someone seemingly permanently moored on the water point below lock 46? He kindly did his best to drain the pound we were moored in to refloat his boat over the summer, despite CRT's assurances that they were running more water down from the summit and he'd be afloat by morning.

 

Yes, the Rochdale is a strange world. I have heard this (which might or might not be true of course).........

The council own that land and CRT rent it to use as a yard, the boat has an official mooring rented from the council.

 

There is still just room to get a boat on the water tap but its a bit tight. Going downhill we put the front in and let the back swing free.

I believe that quite a bit of the Rochdale has strange ownership, some towpath is possibly council owned, and the canal itself is still not owned by CRT, they have it on a long lease.

[peterboat]

49 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Yes, the Rochdale is a strange world. I have heard this (which might or might not be true of course).........

The council own that land and CRT rent it to use as a yard, the boat has an official mooring rented from the council.

 

There is still just room to get a boat on the water tap but its a bit tight. Going downhill we put the front in and let the back swing free.

I believe that quite a bit of the Rochdale has strange ownership, some towpath is possibly council owned, and the canal itself is still not owned by CRT, they have it on a long lease.

I bet that they wish they could give that lease back 🤣

[Tracy D'arth]

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I bet that they wish they could give that lease back 🤣

Should not the freeholder maintain the property?

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I bet that they wish they could give that lease back 🤣

 

Yes. I am not sure if the "Rochdale Canal Company" still exists, its all lost in history, but I suspect current ownership might include some of the councils who put a small fortune into the restoration. In my amateur opinion it would not take too much effort to fix some of the problems and better retain what water the canal has, but a potential issue is that quite a few of the gates are going to get to the end of their life at the same time.

Currently sat in Littleborough in a full pound with a little trickle coming over the bywash. tha'ts all we need .

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, dmr said:

 

I believe that quite a bit of the Rochdale has strange ownership, some towpath is possibly council owned, and the canal itself is still not owned by CRT, they have it on a long lease.

I don't think the last is true. There were land ownership issues that needed to be solved when the final Millennium Lottery funded sections were restored. But I'm pretty sure that all the Rochdale Canal Company's land needed to restore, operate and maintain the canal was transferred to The Waterways Trust, who were set up as the legal entity to receive the Millennium funding. TWT in turned contracted with British Waterways to firstly project manage the restoration, then to operate the canal. When CRT was formed TWT was absorbed into it, as well as CRT taking over the functions of BW in England and Wales. So now the Rochdale Canal is in the same ownership as the rest of CRT's network.

[dmr]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

I don't think the last is true. There were land ownership issues that needed to be solved when the final Millennium Lottery funded sections were restored. But I'm pretty sure that all the Rochdale Canal Company's land needed to restore, operate and maintain the canal was transferred to The Waterways Trust, who were set up as the legal entity to receive the Millennium funding. TWT in turned contracted with British Waterways to firstly project manage the restoration, then to operate the canal. When CRT was formed TWT was absorbed into it, as well as CRT taking over the functions of BW in England and Wales. So now the Rochdale Canal is in the same ownership as the rest of CRT's network.

 

I was told that the towpath in Hebden Bridge is owned by the council.

Its so difficult to get any good info as everybody thinks they know everything about the canal.

So often as Gillie drives into a lock some bloke who has never been on a boat will say "can I give you a bit of advice luv?" 😀

 

There are several locks where the offside paddles appear to be in somebodies garden????

 

two questions:

Do the council own the drydock?

Does the Rochdale Canal Society still exist?

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Should not the freeholder maintain the property?

Tell that to the people who live in blocks of flats that are paying to re-clad them

[Ian Mac]

Ownership and rights of the Rochdale canal are complex!
This is my current understand and this is not the full detail.
The Canal is still owned by the RCC and therefore Town Centre Securities, and the Ziff empire.
The canal is then leased from RCC to now C&RT in the main this is a very long lease 777 years I think and counting down, from when ever the original parts started. The back history is complex for this set of leases and involved both councils and The Waterways Trust.
In Manchester it is yet more complex as the original lease was to Manchester City, they in turn have leased just the water part of the canal to now C&RT via TWT.

MCC retain the lease for the towpath, and other adjoining lands. RCC still own large tracts of land in Manchester.
I do not know if this split ownership also applies in Calderdale, however I have not heard of this before reading it above, and I was under the impression that the C&RT had full rights except in Manchester City.
The Drydock & Wharf are leased still by Calderdale. however this is offside land and not normally part of a canal anyway, so the TWT and then C&RT would not have taken it unless they had to, as there would be an associated cost.
There is also an ongoing dispute over who owns the bridges in Manchester, particularly the footbridges which replace the low level paths which Manchester installed as part of the water channelling. This dispute is between MCC & C&RT.

The offside boundary is complex in places as RCC had leased out land before the restoration, it was unusual for them to sell it outright.

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Ian Mac

[dmr]

When you say MCC own the towpath does this apply only to the Rochdale 9 or right up to the Oldham border?

[Psychalist]

Update on 18/10/2021:

 

Works to pump water to the Burnley section of the Leeds & Liverpool Canal over the breach between Bridge 110, Aspen Bridge and Bridge 109, New Barn Bridge are underway.

Whilst more equipment is needed, over the weekend we took delivery of 540m of pipe and partially laid onsite. More equipment will be arriving over the next 2 days, and we expect to be pumping water past the breach towards the end of this week.

Additional pumps were also brought in over the weekend to help raise the section of canal towards Blackburn. Once the water supply has been stabilised, we will be able to determine if we can open the closed lock flights to limited operation.

Our teams continue to remove debris from site which will allow us to further investigate the area and help determine the repairs and timescale required. We are hoping to have more information on this later this week.

We continue to speak to and assist all those affected by this closure and we urge anyone further to contact our North West Customer Support Team on 03030 404040 if you, or someone you know, is seeking help in the affected area.  

A further update will be provided Friday 22 October.

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

Whilst more equipment is needed, over the weekend we took delivery of 540m of pipe and partially laid onsite. More equipment will be arriving over the next 2 days, and we expect to be pumping water past the breach towards the end of this week.

Additional pumps were also brought in over the weekend to help raise the section of canal towards Blackburn. Once the water supply has been stabilised, we will be able to determine if we can open the closed lock flights to limited operation.

 

Heavy rain is forecast for the next few days at Rishton, which will slow down the work but hopefully fill up the canal!

[Ian Mac]

4 hours ago, dmr said:

When you say MCC own the towpath does this apply only to the Rochdale 9 or right up to the Oldham border?

Own is the wrong legal phrase, MCC have a long lease on the Towpath and some other associated lands. C&RT only have a lease for the water walls and everything between them. I am not sure if this holds true at locks, having never seen the legal document, but only heard the problems this arrangement causes. The original lease was for most of the the Manchester 18 with in Manchester from above Great Ancoats lock 82. Not quite sure but maybe from Henry St bridge upwards. This was the 1970 water channeling project done by MCC.

Then in the early 1990's the Council got the lease for the whole of the Manchester 9, this enabled them to bring it up to some sort of working state again.  Then the millennium bid happened and Manchester had to make the decision to restore the 18 rather than just saying, they would.
Not sure if they then got the missing bit between 84 and Henry St. and also the pound above lock 78. I know they did not have these bits as we worked upon locks 83 & 82 as volunteers for the WRG NW with RCS with permission from RCC in the late 1970's and early 1980's. The rest had been water channelled, except there was also a piece which was not open to the public from lock 78 to lock 77, this was never water channelled and there was never any public access, till the canal was fully reopened. This pound was used as a reservoir and to supply industry.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Ian Mac

[dmr]

14 minutes ago, Ian Mac said:

Own is the wrong legal phrase, MCC have a long lease on the Towpath and some other associated lands. C&RT only have a lease for the water walls and everything between them. I am not sure if this holds true at locks, having never seen the legal document, but only heard the problems this arrangement causes. The original lease was for most of the the Manchester 18 with in Manchester from above Great Ancoats lock 82. Not quite sure but maybe from Henry St bridge upwards. This was the 1970 water channeling project done by MCC.

Then in the early 1990's the Council got the lease for the whole of the Manchester 9, this enabled them to bring it up to some sort of working state again.  Then the millennium bid happened and Manchester had to make the decision to restore the 18 rather than just saying, they would.
Not sure if they then got the missing bit between 84 and Henry St. and also the pound above lock 78. I know they did not have these bits as we worked upon locks 83 & 82 as volunteers for the WRG NW with RCS with permission from RCC in the late 1970's and early 1980's. The rest had been water channelled, except there was also a piece which was not open to the public from lock 78 to lock 77, this was never water channelled and there was never any public access, till the canal was fully reopened. This pound was used as a reservoir and to supply industry.

 

Are you now the main/only source of this historic knowledge of the Rochdale? Can you write all this down? or maybe we need to organise a few nights out, get you talking and record it 😀 We already owe you a lot of beer.

[Unicorn Stampede]

19 hours ago, dmr said:

 

 

Do the council own the drydock?

 

The council owns Hebden bridges dry dock - got multiple email conversations with them about it, as it's been closed for some time due to 'health and safety' measures.

 

I imagine the lack of time to get it repaired was because it wasn't as frequently booked as some people expect. 

 

Dave from Brontë Boats went through a period of saying he had control over it because he's set up shop next to it - but he dropped that when it was closed by the council. Apparently he's been putting 'pressure' on them to fix it.

[Psychalist]

ooh water....

Update on 19/10/2021:

 

We are pleased to advise that the water levels have stabilised on the Burnley stretch of the canal and the Barrowford Lock Flight has reopened to navigation.

To those on the Burnley section of the canal, the last point of turning before the closure between Bridge 110, Aspen Bridge and Bridge 109, New Barn Bridge is Simpson's Bridge, Bridge 111D.

A further update will be provided Friday 22 October.

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

ooh water....

 

Yeah the Barrowford to Churchkirk section has been navigable for a few days now, and Barrowford locks have reopened.

 

The Blackburn to Rishton section is slowly filling and the boats at Rishton are floating again.  Not quite navigable yet but the rain today and tomorrow will help a lot, as will the extra pumps.

 

The Blackburn to Wheelton pound is down a bit, but nothing significant, so hopefully the lower lock flights will reopen in the next week or so, possibly on restricted passage times.

[dmr]

2 hours ago, Unicorn Stampede said:

The council owns Hebden bridges dry dock - got multiple email conversations with them about it, as it's been closed for some time due to 'health and safety' measures.

 

I imagine the lack of time to get it repaired was because it wasn't as frequently booked as some people expect. 

 

Dave from Brontë Boats went through a period of saying he had control over it because he's set up shop next to it - but he dropped that when it was closed by the council. Apparently he's been putting 'pressure' on them to fix it.

 

We have spent quite a bit of time on the Rochdale of late, and spent the first lockdown in Hebden Bridge. The drydock is actually pretty heavily used and some  major overplating projects go on there too. Its not the best dock as its open to the elements and very near apartments (some of whom give trouble), and few boats not on the Rochdale would choose to travel to it, so I was surprised. I would say it well over 50% utilised and not far off 100% much of the time.

 

Having the council owning it, Bronte boats operating, and sometimes outside engineers doing the work,  is not ideal, too many people taking a cut, so maybe it would be good if Bronte could take it on a long leese or even buy it.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Shame it’s left like a shit pit. 
Whoever claims to have control over it should be keeping it tidy, and safe. 

Next time you see it empty see how many anodes have been removed in good nick and left there - someone’s making a small fortune. 

[Unicorn Stampede]

5 hours ago, dmr said:

 

We have spent quite a bit of time on the Rochdale of late, and spent the first lockdown in Hebden Bridge. The drydock is actually pretty heavily used and some  major overplating projects go on there too. Its not the best dock as its open to the elements and very near apartments (some of whom give trouble), and few boats not on the Rochdale would choose to travel to it, so I was surprised. I would say it well over 50% utilised and not far off 100% much of the time.

 

Having the council owning it, Bronte boats operating, and sometimes outside engineers doing the work,  is not ideal, too many people taking a cut, so maybe it would be good if Bronte could take it on a long leese or even buy it.

The two times I enquired about (2019 and 2021) it's availability from the council, I was quoted periods of 3 months to pick from where nothing was booked in (they said I could pick any week in those months), as it's booked on a weekly basis. 

 

I will say the 2021 availability was to be taken with a pinch of salt because after discussing potential dates they came back and apologised that it was closed due to H&S (which would explain why no one was booking it )

 

Maybe people were using it without letting the council know? That might explain why it seems busy but on their records it's not? That's speculation on my part.  

 

In 2019 it wasn't that busy - maybe things changed when the first lockdown hit, due to people not being at work (so time to repair etc)

[David Mack]

24 minutes ago, Unicorn Stampede said:

The two times I enquired about (2019 and 2021) it's availability from the council...

Where did you find any information from Calderdale about booking the dry dock? Nothing shows up on their website.

[dmr]

54 minutes ago, Unicorn Stampede said:

The two times I enquired about (2019 and 2021) it's availability from the council, I was quoted periods of 3 months to pick from where nothing was booked in (they said I could pick any week in those months), as it's booked on a weekly basis. 

 

I will say the 2021 availability was to be taken with a pinch of salt because after discussing potential dates they came back and apologised that it was closed due to H&S (which would explain why no one was booking it )

 

Maybe people were using it without letting the council know? That might explain why it seems busy but on their records it's not? That's speculation on my part.  

 

In 2019 it wasn't that busy - maybe things changed when the first lockdown hit, due to people not being at work (so time to repair etc)

 

Its all odd. Its not the sort of dock where you could get yourself in and out as the fragile stop board needs lifting and swinging with a block and tackle, I doubt the council have anyone to do this so its all done by Bronte boats, so they must want payment. Maybe if you turn up, say you have paid the council, and pay Bronte to get you in then the council would never know????????

An itinerant welder turned up in a camper and lived next to the dock for a week whilst he did a full overplate for somebody, and it all looked very competent if a bit non standard.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Officially one books with the council and they send a bloke to let you in and out on a Monday morning. 
you pay for 7 days. 
 

give a certain bloke a wink 😉 and a back hander and he’ll let you in and out between official bookings. 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

18 hours ago, David Mack said:

Where did you find any information from Calderdale about booking the dry dock? Nothing shows up on their website.

for future reference use tel no.01422 284436 for booking Hebden Dry Dock 

[TheBiscuits]

Update on 22/10/2021:
Our teams have been working hard over the last few days to stabilise the water levels in the immediate area on both sides of the breach between Bridge 109, New Barn Bridge and Bridge 110, Aspen Bridge, Rishton on the Leeds & Liverpool Canal.

In addition to Barrowford Locks re-opening earlier this week, using our emergency abstraction powers to pump water from Knuzden Brook, limited resources from Rishton Reservoir, and with a little help from the rain, we were able to raise the levels on the 6 mile stretch from Rishton to Blackburn to allow assisted passage through Blackburn Locks to all boats that wished to leave the affected section of the canal.

All 1,200 metres of pipes have been laid out and are supported in place to enable us to pump water over the breach. A crane has been onsite today to lift the pumps into the canal at Bridge 110 and are now successfully providing a sustained and sufficient feed to the Blackburn section of the canal and beyond.  

Whilst Blackburn Locks will remain closed to navigation, we are pleased to advise that Johnson’s Hillocks and the Wigan Flight will be open daily from 8am tomorrow, Saturday 23 October. The Wigan Flight will open as per its usual operating times, 8am until 4pm, with last entry at 12pm. Johnson’s Hillocks will re-open without operating times, however this will remain under review subject to water resources.

Our Design Engineers have been onsite undertaking investigations of the work required and planning the early stages of clearing up to see the full extent of the damage. Site surveys and ground investigations have been arranged and once we have a full understanding of the work required, we will be able to plan and programme the required works.

In the meantime, we are working with our neighbouring landowners to allow us to construct access to the site of the breach, whilst our contractors are organising the installation of the clay and stone dams and will start works to create access on the bed of the canal. Based on the previous timescales of similar projects, we estimate the repairs will take in the region of 6 months.

Our teams will continue to assist and work with all those customers affected by this closure, and we continue to urge anyone further to contact our North West Customer Support Team on 03030 404040 if you, or someone you know, is seeking help in the affected area. 

A further update will be provided Friday 5 November.

Edited October 22, 2021 by TheBiscuits
clarity