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Leeds & Liverpool breach


TheBiscuits

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11 hours ago, PeterF said:

Looking at the first footage and the drone footage it appears to have opened up into a culvert and not actually broken through the whole of the bank.

It does. It's at a site of a tributary stream to Hyndburn Brook that comes off Accrington golf course and is also a spill-way from the canal.

image.png.a0777068e146296fe144db5c5b84e7e2.png

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5 minutes ago, dmr said:

I have realised this year just how many tall embankments CRT are responsible for, many right above housing.

I imagine many along this stretch below this contour are are a little more nervous in the light of this and Toddbrook, There was already remedial work being done by CRT further along at Clough Bank.

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12 minutes ago, dmr said:

It does look like another culvert failure. It appears that these things are possibly all getting to the end of their lives and I suspect there are a lot of them. Some are done in timber.

 

 

A few years ago BW admitted they didn't know where they all were as many weren't documented at all, CRT now regularly clear the vegetation from the ones they know about for inspection but I bet there are still some to discover. This one looked quite obvious

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2 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

I imagine many along this stretch below this contour are are a little more nervous in the light of this and Toddbrook, There was already remedial work being done by CRT further along at Clough Bank.

 

In the last week or so we have been along the Macc and Upper and Lower Peak Forest, all have some big embankments or at least big drops to one side, with a few looking quite neglected.  We always think of the famous big ones but there are loads of slightly smaller one all over the system.

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3 hours ago, dmr said:

 

In the last week or so we have been along the Macc and Upper and Lower Peak Forest, all have some big embankments or at least big drops to one side, with a few looking quite neglected.  We always think of the famous big ones but there are loads of slightly smaller one all over the system.

Indeed, and there are some very long pounds involved too. The W&B stop gates by many Bridges that used to be in excellent condition into Birmingham are so poorly maintained now or non existent but the effects of a breach very significant given the length of the pound. There’s so many embankments along that pound. Similar Braunston way though much less populated. Sadly whilst it’s inevitable there will be a breach on these  one day there seems little thought of maintenance. 
 

 

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DMR said I have realised this year just how many tall embankments CRT are responsible for, many right above housing. With climate change and a general post pandemic shortage of money things are going to get tough, and a really switched on, dynamic and forward looking management is required. I am very concerned that CRT has distracted itself with cycling, signage and wellbeing and rather lost its way as far as the canals themselves are concerned.

 

I definitely agree, They are responsible for maintenance in this regard. With the technology of the present times, it would be of interest if there are ways to look for weak spots in the infrastructure. In the old days there used to be the staff who looked for such things.

 

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22 hours ago, Midnight said:

Years ago Ray the then Summit lockie told me United Utilities only allow one lock full of water per day. I been that way several times since but following rainy spells and the culvert has been gushing and water pouring over the gates at both ends  On Saturday when we crept across the low pound the culvert had barely a dribble and the level was down almost 3ft. If what I was told is correct the summit will be closed until we get some decent rain cos a lot of lock fulls are required.

United Utilities have nothing to do with the control of water to the summit of the L&LC, though they do supply some water to the Rochdale from the old canal reservoirs which were sold off to local authorities after the First World War. They also restrict to flow from the Douglas at Wigan after having obtained water rights from the Canal Company when Liverpool Corporation built the Rivington Reservoir near Chorley. The Canal Company owned the rights to that water as a result of their purchase of the Douglas Navigation. The agreement there was for ten locks per day, using the standard L&LC lock measurement of 80,000 gallons. The Environment Agency do have some rights over the water from Winterburn, where compensation water is required under the 1891 Act which gave consent for the reservoir's construction.

 

The culvert which has collapsed is one of the easiest to inspect, and the 1826 survey of the canal shows it as being accompanied by an overflow. The basin nearby was for a coal mine, and the area has suffered from subsidence, though not to the extent of other sections of the canal near former coal mines. The photo shows the overflow on the off side, with the culvert on the right. The narrows were removed many years ago.66A.jpg.d1a47551d050dffb82f8ce5b8f4709ec.jpg                              

West End overflow.jpg

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This thread has got a bit crossed because it is talking about both the L&L breach and also the Rochdale summit closure.

Earlier in the year we met a huge team of CRT engineers and hydrologist getting "on the ground" familiar with the Rochdale. Some new law or policy might significantly reduce the amount of water the Rochdale can take from the rivers/streams flowing next to it.

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This is a 1913 plan of the Rochdale reservoirs. The water rights to most of them were sold off after the First World War, with just one being retained to supply various water users between the summit and Manchester. The water supply to the Rochdale will probably always be a problem without additional supplies. I am not sure how many old reservoir dams CRT would want to take on.

P9152274.jpg

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The L&L collapse of the culvert. This is not be be unexpected. Many years ago a culvert collapsed and BW panicked and inspected all the other culverts on the western side. I do not know if the eastern side was also done. The reason for the panic was the style of culvert build was basically a wooden box made of elm, and the elm is now 200 years plus old. There are a lot of these culverts, so the decision was taken that rather than panic and fix them back then, that they would be fixed on fail, as it is very hard to see just how good the wood is still, and therefore if it needs to be replaced. With hindsight this was the correct decision, as they seem to be failing at about 1 every 2 years. The fix is to dig out the old wooden structure and replace it with a concrete pipe. I would predict that this repair will take about 8 weeks, depending on the start date. That will be governed by getting an access agreement to take modern plant in to undertake the job.

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Rochdale Canal water supply.
This is an ongoing story, as Pluto says the summit reservoirs were all sold off to Rochdale Council in 1923 for public water supply, with the right to a small supply kept from Chelburn and a larger supply from Hollingworth Lake.
The only supplies to the summit level is from Chelburn and from a small stream at Warland, which enters the canal just above Longless Lock 36 which is the eastern summit lock.
As has been written elsewhere the stream supplies are under threat as the rules on abstraction have recently been changed by the government and all the grandfather rights have been extinguished :( C&RT are having to make many thousands of applications in an attempt to retain these old rights.
There are also supplies from streams just below lock 44 and above lock 33, and another supply from the Calder below lock 25 lock. There is also a pumped supply again from the Calder below lock 5. The supplies from the Calder are new and therefore already controlled by the EA so can only operate when there is sufficient water in the River Calder.
There is a reasonable feed which enters the canal on the Rochdale level below lock 48 from Hollingworth lake.
Originally there was a pumped feed from Hollingworth lake via a long sough some of which is underground, to the western end of the summit. This was stopped a long time ago, although the Rochdale Canal Company were still inspecting it in the mid 1980's, however the location of the access shafts to the culvert have been lost.
The
summit reservoirs and Hollingworth Lake are now the property of United Utilities, the wonders of privatisation. Every now and then UU want to sell the summit reservoirs, especially when the cost of reservoir inspections appears, and there have been no droughts. C&RT will not take them on unless they are fully inspected. Rochdale Council will not let UU just drain them, so there is hope for the future maybe.
C&RT are also looking at the cost of installing a pump back scheme up from Littleborough to the summit, however that will not be cheap.

 

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Just to add, the feed from Hollingworth to Summit was fed by a steam engine by the lake bank to pump it up to the feeder level, it was situated near the overflow. I've followed the culvert along much of it's lenght, where was the tunneled section? I know it was tunnelled under the embankment under blackstone edge road, it seems to have used Sladen Brook for a way before it reaches Blackstone Edge Road, it is fed back into the channel by a weir. 

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Now the press are reporting it :

 

 

Dams installed to tackle breach in Leeds and Liverpool Canal near Rishton and Church | Lancashire Telegraph

 

LEAK: A dam has been erected to try and improve water levels in the canal following a breach

 

Engineers have been working to repair damage and restore water levels where the canal was breached in the early hours of Monday morning (October 11), between Rishton and Church.

The section lost a significant amount of water, with part of the canal nearly entirely drained of water.

Footage has also shown a huge hole in the canal bank with water flooding through to the Hyndburn Brook.

 

The reason behind the breach remains unclear and the Canal and Rivers Trust are continuing to work to diagnose the issue and give a prognosis for the full extent of the repair work required.

 

A spokesperson for the Canal and Rivers Trust said: "The dams have been successfully installed on site to isolate the breach between bridge 109, New Barn Bridge and bridge 110, Aspen Bridge, Rishton on the Leeds and Liverpool Canal.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

The L&L collapse of the culvert. This is not be be unexpected. Many years ago a culvert collapsed and BW panicked and inspected all the other culverts on the western side. I do not know if the eastern side was also done. The reason for the panic was the style of culvert build was basically a wooden box made of elm, and the elm is now 200 years plus old. There are a lot of these culverts, so the decision was taken that rather than panic and fix them back then, that they would be fixed on fail, as it is very hard to see just how good the wood is still, and therefore if it needs to be replaced. With hindsight this was the correct decision, as they seem to be failing at about 1 every 2 years. The fix is to dig out the old wooden structure and replace it with a concrete pipe. I would predict that this repair will take about 8 weeks, depending on the start date. That will be governed by getting an access agreement to take modern plant in to undertake the job.

I know of one such wooden culvert on the Middlewich branch SU.  I remember  BW inspecting it and rodding it. They stopped when they found bits of wood coming back from under the canal. As far as I am aware it was left in that state and has been ignored ever since.

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4 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

The L&L collapse of the culvert. This is not be be unexpected. Many years ago a culvert collapsed and BW panicked and inspected all the other culverts on the western side. I do not know if the eastern side was also done. The reason for the panic was the style of culvert build was basically a wooden box made of elm, and the elm is now 200 years plus old. There are a lot of these culverts, so the decision was taken that rather than panic and fix them back then, that they would be fixed on fail, as it is very hard to see just how good the wood is still, and therefore if it needs to be replaced. With hindsight this was the correct decision, as they seem to be failing at about 1 every 2 years. The fix is to dig out the old wooden structure and replace it with a concrete pipe. I would predict that this repair will take about 8 weeks, depending on the start date. That will be governed by getting an access agreement to take modern plant in to undertake the job.

This photo shows a wooden culvert near New Lane after it had been exposed for replacement. in 1975. At the time, one of the older men in the maintenance gang told me that they had few failures, and it was usually a single plank which could be replaced fairly easily and quickly  with the methods then employed. Modern H&S restricts the use of the temporary piling which was used to get access to the canal bed and the culvert, resulting in major works needing to be undertaken when there is a collapse today. The text is from the L&LC correspondence files, and is from 1923 when they were looking at how to replace unreliable culverts.

culvert 7.jpg

P1010438.jpg

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Thinking back to the breach a bit further west at rishton a few years back, which was also a culvert problem it took a good 3 months to repair... we were stranded at wheelton and it was the continual drip feed of info and slipping reopening date that really was annoying.  Hope those affected get a realistic repair time estimate. 

 

IIRC CRT were using some fancy repair method (some sort of liner ? ) for that culvert which was part of the delay.

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