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Diesel powered range or LOTS of solar panels


Boat-in-progress

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Hi all - I’m a newbie here and would be grateful for all / any advice you have.

 

I am currently ordering a 12,6 x 60 foot wide beam sailaway and as I’m fitting out the boat from scratch I have far too many options to choose from. My main thoughts currently are revolving around the cooking, heating and hot water systems as I would like the boat to be as ‘off grid’ as possible, however, I will most likely moor the boat from December - February. 
 

There are a couple of things I am regarding as a necessity:

 

1. Underfloor heating (be it water or electric). The reason is less for ‘heating’ and more for keeping the boat at a steady temperature and may help condensation issues 

 

2. No LPG. 
 

I have found a company called ‘Heritage Range’ through another feed. These Diesel ‘range’ cookers cook, heat water and underfloor heating. (I understand this will also be ‘warm’ in the summer.

The other option would be a large solar panel system to power an immersion in the calorifier electric underfloor ‘heating’ and have a separate cooker of some kind and an additional Diesel heater or multi fuel burner.

 

Are there better options?  

 

 

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Have you also considere toilet 'type', the 'in-thing' at the moment seems to be 'dumping' in a plastic bag and then putting in the waste bins - otherwise known as 'composting toilets' - but do not dismiss the far better systems of either a holding tank,. or, a cassette system.

 

Are you aware of the  RCD / RCR (recreational Craft Regulations) which details what you must do if building or fitting out your own boat, this involves the specifications that you must use for everything.

It also explains the implications for selling the boat in the future if you do not follow the build regulations.

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Thanks Alan!

 

I am going for a composting toilet but have a specific (on land) composter for this rather than as you say ‘bagging it and binning it’ 

 

I am also aware off the BSS and RCR and obviously will be followed - all of the systems stated I have already seen on boats for sale and therefore assume they have been ‘signed off’?! Is this not the case. I’m talking brokers over ‘gumtree’ for example. While we are on this subject, where can I get hold of a full copy of the latest BSS and RCR information - it seems a much more guarded secret than ‘land’ building regs. 

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31 minutes ago, Boat-in-progress said:

Hi all - I’m a newbie here and would be grateful for all / any advice you have.

 

I am currently ordering a 12,6 x 60 foot wide beam sailaway and as I’m fitting out the boat from scratch I have far too many options to choose from. My main thoughts currently are revolving around the cooking, heating and hot water systems as I would like the boat to be as ‘off grid’ as possible, however, I will most likely moor the boat from December - February. 
 

There are a couple of things I am regarding as a necessity:

 

1. Underfloor heating (be it water or electric). The reason is less for ‘heating’ and more for keeping the boat at a steady temperature and may help condensation issues 

 

2. No LPG. 
 

I have found a company called ‘Heritage Range’ through another feed. These Diesel ‘range’ cookers cook, heat water and underfloor heating. (I understand this will also be ‘warm’ in the summer.

The other option would be a large solar panel system to power an immersion in the calorifier electric underfloor ‘heating’ and have a separate cooker of some kind and an additional Diesel heater or multi fuel burner.

 

Are there better options?  

 

 

 

You'll probably hear this a lot, but as a relatively new boater I certainly found it to be true: at the time you are thinking about buying boats, there are a few things that you think will be important to your lifestyle, which later turn out to be not important. 

 

Underfloor heating, I feel, may turn out to be one of those requirements which don't work out in practice to be as critical (or even as useful) as you envisaged.

For one thing, it takes a good while for the heat to spread up and permeate the boat-  and when you want to cool the boat down a  bit, it may be slow to respond. 

I find that a solid fuel stove keeps everything warm, including the floor- and I doubt that underfloor heating can replace a solid fuel (or diesel) stove on the really cold nights. So maybe just go with the stove? 

 

If your objective is to be off grid as much as possible, then a large solar panel array is a good idea. I would get as much as the roof will allow, leaving some space for the centre line, and maybe some space at the sides to walk along the roof to reach a ladder, if singlehanding in a lock. 

 

If you are speccing the boat from scratch I would also ensure you get a decent alternator and a capable charging system, and maybe consider lithium batteries as well if the budget allows. 

You'll probably use at least 100-120 Ah of electricity each day off grid.

In the summer your solar panels will replace all of that, and will also give you some free hot water, but you need to think about the winter when you have very little solar, and the engine (or genny) is your only source of electricity. 

A good charging system could have your batteries refilled in less than an hour, which is good as it saves on diesel - and who wants to be running the engine for 2 or 3 hours when 1 hour will do it? 

Also good for a more off grid lifestyle is a big water tank, and either a pump out toilet or a dry/separating toilet (but bear in mind that come December there will be drastic restrictions on the use of separating toilets.  

 

 

 

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Thanks Tony1

 

Your points are all good and valid - I did run the underfloor heating idea past the boat builders who agreed it could be beneficial. I think the ‘could be’ would need to be proven, perhaps even an extra layer of insulation on the subfloor may also be a viable alternative. 
 

lithium batteries are a good shout - thank you. I’ll have a look at those in regard to solar as the charging on cloudy days might not be ‘liked’ with those type of batteries.

 

A big water tank is on the plans! 👌🏼 I was a little concerned about stagnant water though. 
 

Could you elaborate on the up-coming separating toilet restrictions? I assume this refers to ‘composting loos?’ Are these specific water way ones? I can’t see anything ‘on land’ - although only a quick google search has been done! 

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4 minutes ago, Boat-in-progress said:

A big water tank is on the plans! 👌🏼 I was a little concerned about stagnant water though. 

 

You don't have to fill it all the way up if you want a faster turnover of the contents.  It's much better to have a big tank that you don't fill than a small tank that won't hold enough for your needs.

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45 minutes ago, Boat-in-progress said:

Thanks Alan!

 

I am going for a composting toilet but have a specific (on land) composter for this rather than as you say ‘bagging it and binning it’ 

 

I am also aware off the BSS and RCR and obviously will be followed - all of the systems stated I have already seen on boats for sale and therefore assume they have been ‘signed off’?! Is this not the case. I’m talking brokers over ‘gumtree’ for example. While we are on this subject, where can I get hold of a full copy of the latest BSS and RCR information - it seems a much more guarded secret than ‘land’ building regs. 

 

The RCR documentation is an Act of Parliament (link attached), there are various documents such as a 'tool box', RCR Guidelines etc etc, but basically they are all pretty much ONLY a list of the ISO Standards that you should use for your build, exaamples being :

 

12V DC wiring ISO 10133 Second edition 2000-12-01 Small craft — Electrical systems — Extra-low-voltage d.c. installation

230v AC Wiring ISO 13297 Second edition 2000-12-01 Small craft — Electrical systems — Alternating current installations

ISO 10239:2008 Small craft -- Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) system

ISO specifications for stability,

Small craft - Fire-resistant fuel hoses (ISO 7840:2013)

Small craft - Non-fire-resistant fuel hoses (ISO 8469:2013)

Small craft - Electrically operated direct-current bilge pumps (ISO 8849:2003)

Small craft - Seacocks and through-hull fittings - Part 1: Metallic (ISO 9093-1:1994)

Small craft - Hull construction and scantlings - Part 3: Materials: Steel, aluminium alloys, wood, other materials (ISO 12215-3:2002)

 

Etc etc etc.

 

There are some (estimate) 500 specifications you need to access, (but not all will be applicable to Steel canal boats) You used to be able to read them all online at Manchester Library, but I believe that service is no longer available.

 

There were quite a few amendments in the latest (2017) version of the RCD so ensure you are working on uptodate information (the 2017 modifications include changes in the sections on toilets and re-boarding requirements)

 

 

The RCD documents I have probably amount to over 100Mb and this forum only allows you to post up to 2.9Mb so I cannot post them for you (Individual documenst vary from 4mb to 17mb

 

The Act Of parliament :

 

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 (legislation.gov.uk)

 

having noticed your avatar - my 'boys'

 

 

 

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Edited by Alan de Enfield
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20 minutes ago, Boat-in-progress said:

Thanks Tony1

 

Your points are all good and valid - I did run the underfloor heating idea past the boat builders who agreed it could be beneficial. I think the ‘could be’ would need to be proven, perhaps even an extra layer of insulation on the subfloor may also be a viable alternative. 
 

lithium batteries are a good shout - thank you. I’ll have a look at those in regard to solar as the charging on cloudy days might not be ‘liked’ with those type of batteries.

 

A big water tank is on the plans! 👌🏼 I was a little concerned about stagnant water though. 
 

Could you elaborate on the up-coming separating toilet restrictions? I assume this refers to ‘composting loos?’ Are these specific water way ones? I can’t see anything ‘on land’ - although only a quick google search has been done! 

 

On the toilet thing- my understanding is that from December, user s of separating (aka composting) toilets are no longer permitted to use the standard CRT refuse bins to dispose of their 'solid' waste. 

I'm either getting a pumpout fitted, or else putting a mini 'Hotbox' composter in the cratch to fully compost the solid waste. Hundreds and hundreds of boaters with separating toilets will have to make a decision in the next couple of months. 

If you have a storage facility on land to allow full composting of the waste from your separating toilet, then its not a major problem for you. 

 

Lithium batteries will charge more easily than lead acid batteries under any conditions, whether from solar or from your engine. That is actually their problem- they suck out current from an alternator at a higher rate than lead acid batteries do, and they pose the risk of actually overheating and damaging alternators which were designed to work with lead acid batteries- which only take the high current draw for a short time, then it reduces- which spares the alternator, but means your batteries take longer (and use more fuel) to recharge.   

 

Lithium batteries work fantastically well with solar panels - for example, I haven't needed to run my engine (to generate electricity) in the last couple of months. But lithium batteries is a whole little world unto itself, tbh, with all sorts of info you need to take on board to look after them. Luckily the info needed is all here, and there are a few super-helpful people who unlike me have a real knowledge of the detail of installing and managing these brilliant devices. 

 

For a new build I would always suggest 500 or 600Ah of lithium batteries, provided you add the budget and the equipment needed to manage control them. If you look after them they could last a decade. 

 

Just another thing- if you are speccing from new, I would suggest a water tank level monitor. Its a pain in the posterior when you want to stay off grid in a nice spot for a few days longer, but you arent quite sure when your water is going to run out.

 

ETA- dont worry about stagnant water as a result of a big tank. No tank will last you more than 20 days anyway, and most less than 15, so there isnt time for stagnation to be an issue. I put in some chlorine-based tablets every few months just in case.

 

 

 

Edited by Tony1
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On your under floor heating.....

I installed it in our house extension. It's a water overlay system heated through a domestic gas boiler.

It sits on hardcore, 4 inch insulation, min 4 inch slab and an inch of screed.

Though there is an alternative 'joist' option, (which wasn't there  couple f years ago when we did ours)

Many systems are installed under the slab, they do take a long time to warm through properly (couple of says) but act as a heat store. You don't have that choice.

We were able to tile directly over the pipes that sit within boards with pre-made grooves. You have to consider the floor finish - tiles are about the best conductors of heat.

The room (10m x 4m) heats up within an hour controlled in 3 zones by stats.

The system runs much less hot that conventional radiators (appro. 27 degrees to 60/70).

Where heat is not required, under kitchen units for example, they provide 'blank' boards to maintain equal height throughout.

I can't thing of a reason why it couldn't be run from an on-demand heating boiler on a boat - diesel perhaps?

Here's the system I used

The company provided everything for a self-install which I did myself. So, cost wise it was very reasonable. There's is a good set of instructions, detailed online instructional videos and prompt telephone assistance for when I got in a muddle.

If you call them I'm sure they would offer some helpful advice.

 

BUT, you will have to consider (at least):

 

access will be required to the bilge at some point.

A boat's movement / stability when in rough water or hitting a lock gate etc. (You don't want pipes coming asunder.)

 

Electric UHF is simple to install bit is (or certainly was) mighty expensive to run.

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1 hour ago, Boaty Jo said:

BUT, you will have to consider (at least):

 

access will be required to the bilge at some point.

 

Also, water (or worse, diesel) will also get into the bilges at some point in the boat's (hopefully) long life. When it does, the type of underfloor insulation needs not to be of a type likely to soak it up. 

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That’s a massive boat you are planning to sail for much of the season, where are you planning to sail her?


I’ve no direct experience of Heritage ranges, but they do look good. Did though have an Aga at home for years  that did the cooking plus domestic hot water. It worked well. I’ve viewed narrowboats with a heritage range and it did mean they had a greater draft than usual. (3 foot compared to what I had imagined at 2’6- both had a traditional old engine too) Given the size of your planned boat that effect may well be reduced.  Both were liveaboards but managed fine with just the range, no underfloor hearing  and no other stove. 

 

Have you tried living in or hiring  a narrowboat? You may be surprised at the room it gives you and it will give full inland waterway coverage bar one small area at 60’. You are pretty restricted with a widebeam, as I expect you know. 
 

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8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:


This is great Alan thank you - I will have a deep dive into those regs but at first glance - as I expected most of it is common sense. 
 

Your boys ❤️! Unfortunately my frenchie is a paddler so she will definitely need a life jacket! 

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2 minutes ago, Boat-in-progress said:

This is great Alan thank you - I will have a deep dive into those regs but at first glance - as I expected most of it is common sense. 

 

To a certain extent it is, but for example 'common sense' for a domestic house wiring electrician, is very very different to the 'common sense' of a boat electrician.

 

I guess your own 'RCR involvemnet will be very much down to what what stage your boat is being completed by the builder.

 

If you are simply getting a shell and engine, then pretty much everything (gas, electricity, ballast, stability, etc etc) will be down to you to ensure you build in compliance. If you are getting a boat hull, engine, insulated, ballasted, 1st and 2nd stage wiring, gas piping, lined out etc, and all you are doing is building the 'walls' fitting the cooker, fire carrying in the furniture etc then your compliance will be pretty simple.

 

Just ensure you get the new 'full compliance' certificate from the builder to the level of fit out that he is supplying as the old Annexe lIIa documentation that was used on part built boats is no longer allowed.

 

Whatever the build level of the boat it must now be FULLY certified (as per a finished boat) to that level, including owners manual, all HIN / CIN markings, complaince certificates etc.

Also ensure you get a complete VAT paid certificate / invoice.

 

 

RCD Update January 2017… Conclusion

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

  • A builders plate – makers details and technical information
  • A CE mark
  • A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
  • An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
  • A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sailaway boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sailway boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

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9 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

On the toilet thing- my understanding is that from December, user s of separating (aka composting) toilets are no longer permitted to use the standard CRT refuse bins to dispose of their 'solid' waste. 

I'm either getting a pumpout fitted, or else putting a mini 'Hotbox' composter in the cratch to fully compost the solid waste. Hundreds and hundreds of boaters with separating toilets will have to make a decision in the next couple of months. 

If you have a storage facility on land to allow full composting of the waste from your separating toilet, then its not a major problem for you. 

 

Lithium batteries will charge more easily than lead acid batteries under any conditions, whether from solar or from your engine. That is actually their problem- they suck out current from an alternator at a higher rate than lead acid batteries do, and they pose the risk of actually overheating and damaging alternators which were designed to work with lead acid batteries- which only take the high current draw for a short time, then it reduces- which spares the alternator, but means your batteries take longer (and use more fuel) to recharge.   

 

Lithium batteries work fantastically well with solar panels - for example, I haven't needed to run my engine (to generate electricity) in the last couple of months. But lithium batteries is a whole little world unto itself, tbh, with all sorts of info you need to take on board to look after them. Luckily the info needed is all here, and there are a few super-helpful people who unlike me have a real knowledge of the detail of installing and managing these brilliant devices. 

 

For a new build I would always suggest 500 or 600Ah of lithium batteries, provided you add the budget and the equipment needed to manage control them. If you look after them they could last a decade. 

 

Just another thing- if you are speccing from new, I would suggest a water tank level monitor. Its a pain in the posterior when you want to stay off grid in a nice spot for a few days longer, but you arent quite sure when your water is going to run out.

 

ETA- dont worry about stagnant water as a result of a big tank. No tank will last you more than 20 days anyway, and most less than 15, so there isnt time for stagnation to be an issue. I put in some chlorine-based tablets every few months just in case.

 

 

 

 

Hi Tony1 

 

- Hotbox Composter 

I actually do have a Hotbox composter (in my garden) albeit this is not where I will be adding the waste to. That will be a separate ‘cold’ composter on a different patch of land. In regard to the hotbox - from my experience their claim of creating compost in 90 days is only accurate in the height of the summer and if it is filled with a lot of green/brown waste every week. If in the sun, it does start to smell, it leaches water from the base - which is collected for fertiliser and it’s incredibly messy to empty - but nothing that a pre-laid sheet can’t handle. The compost I have ‘made’ however is lovely stuff! Full of worms - which shows it’s not always hot. 
 

I would be great for marinas to start including composting. In the end they have a product they can sell on. 
 

-Batteries 

This makes sense. I will definitely look into this more

 

-Water level meter 

For sure! That’s a great call. 

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10 hours ago, Boat-in-progress said:

Underfloor heating (be it water or electric). The reason is less for ‘heating’ and more for keeping the boat at a steady temperature and may help condensation issues 

 

2. No LPG. 
 

I have found a company called ‘Heritage Range’ through another feed. These Diesel ‘range’ cookers cook, heat water and underfloor heating. (I understand this will also be ‘warm’ in the summer.

The other option would be a large solar panel system to power an immersion in the calorifier electric underfloor ‘heating’ and have a separate cooker of some kind and an additional Diesel heater or multi fuel burner.

When speccing a new boat while being relatively new to boating, your ideas of what are essential are going to differ from what they'll be in a few years. If most boats have a particular feature, but you are dead set on something else, then it is worth asking why most boats have that feature, not yours. It is possible that you have come up with something much better, but you need to consider the possibility that you haven't!

Underfloor heating has been done on boats. I've not done it. The problem as I understand it is that you need a lot of insulation underneath to stop much of the heat being sucked straight through the base plate in to the water. This reduces the headroom  of the cabin. You still need ballast in the bilge to get the trim of the boat right. The thickness of  ballast can be reduced by swapping brick, or concrete for steel, either by building the boat with a thicker base plate, or adding steel ballast. There also needs to be an air gap for ventilation. Also all the maintenance and repair problems other posters have mentioned.

 

LPG. Most boats have LPG stoves. Installed properly, which it has to be to be legal for a lived in boat, it is safe. Cheap to run (until the recent spike in gas prices), LPG available everywhere. Quick to get up to temperature. There are quite a few boats with Heritage ranges that work well however, so this also seems a good option.

Heating anything off grid with electricity is a bad idea. A huge solar array might keep up with hot water in a calorifier, but you'll get an order of magnitude less energy from the sun in winter. It gets cold in winter 'cause the sun isn't there so much, so trying to heat your boat to make up for the lack of warmth from sunshine with solar electricity won't work. The conversion of sunlight to electricity isn't terribly efficient either.

This may sound a bit negative (except for Heritage Stoves), but I was once in your situation, fitting out a sailaway with relatively little boating experience. Some of my at the time weird ideas worked (solar thermal hot water), some of them didn't (composting bog).

Jen

9 minutes ago, Boat-in-progress said:

-Water level meter 

I made my own. An option if you are handy with electronics.

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26 minutes ago, Boat-in-progress said:

This is great Alan thank you - I will have a deep dive into those regs but at first glance - as I expected most of it is common sense. 

 

 

Something else that you may not yet be aware of is the Govenments 'Zero-Emissions' plans for the marine industry, wich covers 'all boats' , both coastal and inland waterways.

 

Many, many boatbuilders are now buildingboats to meet these plans and 'future-proofing' their boats.

 

In short the following are the requirments are :

 

By 2025 All boats built must be capable of being converted to zero emission propulsion.

By 2035 No new boats can be built unless they are zero emissions propulsion

In 2050 no boats will be allowed to be used in UK waters unless they are zero emission propulsion.

 

Buying a new boat in the next couple of years and not taking the future plans into account could lead to very heavy depreciation when you come to sell. Its a bit like buying a property that is leashold with only a few years left on the lease - you'll never be able to sell it.

 

There are currently various discussions (do a forum search) but to convert a diesel engined boat to an electric boat could easily cost ~£30,000, but building it as an electric boat in the 1st place could possibly save 50%+ of that.

It is forecast that as more and more electric vehicles and boats beome available and the technolgy inproves and matures the costs will reduce, but by how much ?

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4 hours ago, Boaty Jo said:

On your under floor heating.....

I installed it in our house extension. It's a water overlay system heated through a domestic gas boiler.

It sits on hardcore, 4 inch insulation, min 4 inch slab and an inch of screed.

Though there is an alternative 'joist' option, (which wasn't there  couple f years ago when we did ours)

Many systems are installed under the slab, they do take a long time to warm through properly (couple of says) but act as a heat store. You don't have that choice.

We were able to tile directly over the pipes that sit within boards with pre-made grooves. You have to consider the floor finish - tiles are about the best conductors of heat.

The room (10m x 4m) heats up within an hour controlled in 3 zones by stats.

The system runs much less hot that conventional radiators (appro. 27 degrees to 60/70).

Where heat is not required, under kitchen units for example, they provide 'blank' boards to maintain equal height throughout.

I can't thing of a reason why it couldn't be run from an on-demand heating boiler on a boat - diesel perhaps?

Here's the system I used

The company provided everything for a self-install which I did myself. So, cost wise it was very reasonable. There's is a good set of instructions, detailed online instructional videos and prompt telephone assistance for when I got in a muddle.

If you call them I'm sure they would offer some helpful advice.

 

BUT, you will have to consider (at least):

 

access will be required to the bilge at some point.

A boat's movement / stability when in rough water or hitting a lock gate etc. (You don't want pipes coming asunder.)

 

Electric UHF is simple to install bit is (or certainly was) mighty expensive to run.

Thanks Boaty Jo - all useful stuff 

 

That’s why I am not too keen on the idea of a water system purely for the fact that it is more ‘permanent’ as you mentioned under the kitchen cupboards beds sofa etc do not need to be heated and will be perfect places for inspection hatch’s 

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Also, water (or worse, diesel) will also get into the bilges at some point in the boat's (hopefully) long life. When it does, the type of underfloor insulation needs not to be of a type likely to soak it up. 


Hi MtB 

 

In regard to the insulation idea I added as a throw away comment. I imagined this as something like ‘Rock wool’ added under a floating floor which would sit on top of the subfloor - I would hope this would not get wet! 

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2 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

That’s a massive boat you are planning to sail for much of the season, where are you planning to sail her?


I’ve no direct experience of Heritage ranges, but they do look good. Did though have an Aga at home for years  that did the cooking plus domestic hot water. It worked well. I’ve viewed narrowboats with a heritage range and it did mean they had a greater draft than usual. (3 foot compared to what I had imagined at 2’6- both had a traditional old engine too) Given the size of your planned boat that effect may well be reduced.  Both were liveaboards but managed fine with just the range, no underfloor hearing  and no other stove. 

 

Have you tried living in or hiring  a narrowboat? You may be surprised at the room it gives you and it will give full inland waterway coverage bar one small area at 60’. You are pretty restricted with a widebeam, as I expect you know. 
 

Hi Stroudwater1 

 

Yes! It’s a big boat isn’t it! I am based just off the Grand Union in Northamptonshire - I am aware of the restrictions into Grand Union Canal Arms.

 

This project is part leisure and part business so the space is important - even with expensive mooring costs and having to book the Blisworth tunnel! 

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11 hours ago, Boat-in-progress said:

Hi all - I’m a newbie here and would be grateful for all / any advice you have.

 

I am currently ordering a 12,6 x 60 foot wide beam sailaway and as I’m fitting out the boat from scratch I have far too many options to choose from. My main thoughts currently are revolving around the cooking, heating and hot water systems as I would like the boat to be as ‘off grid’ as possible, however, I will most likely moor the boat from December - February. 
 

There are a couple of things I am regarding as a necessity:

 

1. Underfloor heating (be it water or electric). The reason is less for ‘heating’ and more for keeping the boat at a steady temperature and may help condensation issues 

 

2. No LPG. 
 

I have found a company called ‘Heritage Range’ through another feed. These Diesel ‘range’ cookers cook, heat water and underfloor heating. (I understand this will also be ‘warm’ in the summer.

The other option would be a large solar panel system to power an immersion in the calorifier electric underfloor ‘heating’ and have a separate cooker of some kind and an additional Diesel heater or multi fuel burner.

 

Are there better options?  

 

 

So I have a 57 x 12 widebeam, if I had started from scratch I would have gone underfloor heating, many years ago I met a narrowboat that had gone that way, they were real constant cruisers, the water from the heater circuit was used to heat the floor. I know the pipes ran in concrete and the boat was very toasty in the winter, to achieve that they had to cruise daily. They had a wood burner as well.

Now as others have said shortly things are going to change like me you will have a composting loo like me you do real composting so I cant see changes will matter to you.

Engines are going to be departing us, as you are building from scratch go electric like I have, full roof of solar [500watt panels] mine are switchable and can power the immersion heater in summer for hot water. The addition of a genny will help heat hot water in winter whilst charging your batteries. LifePo4 batteries are the way to go they charge easier than anything else and looked after will last a lifetime.

I have a Rayburn to cook with in the winter it also heats the water and radiators via a heatstore, Summer I have an induction hob and the microwave which suits me fine.

If you have any questions PM me and I will chat to you about it

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33 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

To a certain extent it is, but for example 'common sense' for a domestic house wiring electrician, is very very different to the 'common sense' of a boat electrician.

 

I guess your own 'RCR involvemnet will be very much down to what what stage your boat is being completed by the builder.

 

If you are simply getting a shell and engine, then pretty much everything (gas, electricity, ballast, stability, etc etc) will be down to you to ensure you build in compliance. If you are getting a boat hull, engine, insulated, ballasted, 1st and 2nd stage wiring, gas piping, lined out etc, and all you are doing is building the 'walls' fitting the cooker, fire carrying in the furniture etc then your compliance will be pretty simple.

 

Just ensure you get the new 'full compliance' certificate from the builder to the level of fit out that he is supplying as the old Annexe lIIa documentation that was used on part built boats is no longer allowed.

 

Whatever the build level of the boat it must now be FULLY certified (as per a finished boat) to that level, including owners manual, all HIN / CIN markings, complaince certificates etc.

Also ensure you get a complete VAT paid certificate / invoice.

 

 

RCD Update January 2017… Conclusion

The new Directive has effectively put an end to Sailaway boats (completed to all variety of levels) being supplied with an Annex lll(a) Declaration as was previously possible under Directive 94/25/EU. Under the new Directive (2013/53/EU) Sailaways (including hull only) would need to be supplied as completed craft.

Therefore for anyone purchasing a narrow boat sailaway from 18th January 2017 must ensure you have the necessary paperwork from your boat builder that is required of a ‘completed’ craft up to the current point of completion, this includes:

  • A builders plate – makers details and technical information
  • A CE mark
  • A Craft or Hull Identification Number (CIN or HIN) – it is carried in two places on the boat; one should be hidden for security.
  • An owners manual with information needed to use and maintain the boat safety
  • A declaration of conformity (DoC)

A CE marked craft shows the craft is compliant when it was placed on the market for the first time. It remains valid unless a major alteration to the craft takes place which would require a re-assessment of the craft.

‘Major Craft Conversion’ would be applicable to the fit out of the majority of sailaway boats, and needs to be factored in when planning your fit out. Once you have completed the fit out of your sailway boat, the boat would require a Post Construction Assessment and the documentation, builders plate and CE markings all need to be updated. Although a self assessment is possible, it is not recommended as the fitter would resume all responsibility as the manufacturer and it is also a lengthy and involved process. In the worse case scenario, it could mean you are held criminally responsible if the boat sank and there was loss of life. It is recommended that you appoint a professional to complete the post construction assessment, this would be at of cost of around £2000.

Thanks again Alan,

 

Because of these changes there seems to be more conformity on what a Sailaway includes these days. 
 

NB- I was an diagnostic / auto electrician - I guess I still am but it is not my trade, I am now an interior architect so understanding ‘the rules’ is part of the design process. 

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Something else that you may not yet be aware of is the Govenments 'Zero-Emissions' plans for the marine industry, wich covers 'all boats' , both coastal and inland waterways.

 

Many, many boatbuilders are now buildingboats to meet these plans and 'future-proofing' their boats.

 

In short the following are the requirments are :

 

By 2025 All boats built must be capable of being converted to zero emission propulsion.

By 2035 No new boats can be built unless they are zero emissions propulsion

In 2050 no boats will be allowed to be used in UK waters unless they are zero emission propulsion.

 

Buying a new boat in the next couple of years and not taking the future plans into account could lead to very heavy depreciation when you come to sell. Its a bit like buying a property that is leashold with only a few years left on the lease - you'll never be able to sell it.

 

There are currently various discussions (do a forum search) but to convert a diesel engined boat to an electric boat could easily cost ~£30,000, but building it as an electric boat in the 1st place could possibly save 50%+ of that.

It is forecast that as more and more electric vehicles and boats beome available and the technolgy inproves and matures the costs will reduce, but by how much ?


Great point……..

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11 hours ago, Boat-in-progress said:

Hi all - I’m a newbie here and would be grateful for all / any advice you have.

 

I am currently ordering a 12,6 x 60 foot wide beam sailaway and as I’m fitting out the boat from scratch I have far too many options to choose from. My main thoughts currently are revolving around the cooking, heating and hot water systems as I would like the boat to be as ‘off grid’ as possible, however, I will most likely moor the boat from December - February. 
 

There are a couple of things I am regarding as a necessity:

 

1. Underfloor heating (be it water or electric). The reason is less for ‘heating’ and more for keeping the boat at a steady temperature and may help condensation issues 

 

2. No LPG. 
 

I have found a company called ‘Heritage Range’ through another feed. These Diesel ‘range’ cookers cook, heat water and underfloor heating. (I understand this will also be ‘warm’ in the summer.

The other option would be a large solar panel system to power an immersion in the calorifier electric underfloor ‘heating’ and have a separate cooker of some kind and an additional Diesel heater or multi fuel burner.

 

Are there better options?  

 

 

Have you owned a boat before?  If not I'd urge to stop what you're doing. 

 

So often, newcomers try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to their boat, but much of what's normally done on a fit out is for very good reasons.

 

If I were you, I'd buy an older boat with a conventional fit out and live with that for a couple of years.  Then buy a new sailaway to fit out.  You'll have much better idea of what you want to do.

 

Also, no amount of solar fitted to a boat will be sufficient to provide any useful interior heating in winter.  It's a non-starter.  If you're off grid then it's highly likely that your solar won't even provide enough to run your appliances.

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8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

So I have a 57 x 12 widebeam, if I had started from scratch I would have gone underfloor heating, many years ago I met a narrowboat that had gone that way, they were real constant cruisers, the water from the heater circuit was used to heat the floor. I know the pipes ran in concrete and the boat was very toasty in the winter, to achieve that they had to cruise daily. They had a wood burner as well.

Now as others have said shortly things are going to change like me you will have a composting loo like me you do real composting so I cant see changes will matter to you.

Engines are going to be departing us, as you are building from scratch go electric like I have, full roof of solar [500watt panels] mine are switchable and can power the immersion heater in summer for hot water. The addition of a genny will help heat hot water in winter whilst charging your batteries. LifePo4 batteries are the way to go they charge easier than anything else and looked after will last a lifetime.

I have a Rayburn to cook with in the winter it also heats the water and radiators via a heatstore, Summer I have an induction hob and the microwave which suits me fine.

If you have any questions PM me and I will chat to you about it


Thanks Peterboat - I will take you up on that offer. If I can work out how to PM! 🤣

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1 minute ago, Boat-in-progress said:

NB- I was an diagnostic / auto electrician - I guess I still am but it is not my trade,

 

An auto electrician is getting closer to a boat-electrician but there are still big differences - eg on a car you can use the body as the 'return' so are only using single-wiring, on a boat this is absolutely 'verboten', you need both the positive and negative taken back to the battery / busbar.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Boat-in-progress said:

Because of these changes there seems to be more conformity on what a Sailaway includes these days. 

 

I'm not sure I agree, there seems to be a myriad of differences between suppliers, with 'sailaway', 'sailway with insulation', 'sailaway plus', 'sailaway plus with extras' etc etc.

Just now, Boat-in-progress said:


Thanks Peterboat - I will take you up on that offer. If I can work out how to PM! 🤣

 

Click on his banana (avatar) then click on 'message' when his profile opens.

 

Job done.

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3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Have you owned a boat before?  If not I'd urge to stop what you're doing. 

 

So often, newcomers try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to their boat, but much of what's normally done on a fit out is for very good reasons.

 

If I were you, I'd buy an older boat with a conventional fit out and live with that for a couple of years.  Then buy a new sailaway to fit out.  You'll have much better idea of what you want to do.

 

Also, no amount of solar fitted to a boat will be sufficient to provide any useful interior heating in winter.  It's a non-starter.  If you're off grid then it's highly likely that your solar won't even provide enough to run your appliances.


Thanks for your input Doratheexplorer -

I don’t think I’m trying to reinvent the wheel, as I have mentioned all of the systems that I have spoken about are currently being used. 

 

Additionally- as mentioned in a previous post I am a qualified auto electrician (which as you may or may not know also works on a 12v system) and therefore I have some understanding of the limitations of trying to run the entire boat from solar and have therefore suggested a solar set up would ALSO be supplemented by another heat source. I have intentionally not mentioned 230v appliances as this is a different kettle of fish. 
 

 

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15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

An auto electrician is getting closer to a boat-electrician but there are still big differences - eg on a car you can use the body as the 'return' so are only using single-wiring, on a boat this is absolutely 'verboten', you need both the positive and negative taken back to the battery / busbar.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I agree, there seems to be a myriad of differences between suppliers, with 'sailaway', 'sailway with insulation', 'sailaway plus', 'sailaway plus with extras' etc etc.

 

Click on his banana (avatar) then click on 'message' when his profile opens.

 

Job done.


Thanks again Alan, I am aware of the earth.

I am also ‘competent’ - and are in no way an electrician - in 230v electrics but my dad is an electrician so that’s his domain. 
 

I’ll keep more of an eagle eye out for the certification on the sailaways from now on! 
 

Thanks - social media is not a strong point. 

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