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Chicken and egg?


AndyE

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1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:

Nevertheless when choosing or designing a boat the measurement from underneath a bridge to canal bottom is the only absolute measurement (ignoring any future silting or dredging) and needs to be considered. 

 

 

Which bridge ?

Do  you investigate every bridge and tunnel on the system ?

The lowest 'roof' I found was the Harecastle tunnel where I had to go thru on my knees with my eyes just peeping over the cabin roof, never had to do that on any bridge we came across.

 

Guess we will just have to disagree on the usefulness of the dimension.

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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Which bridge ?

Do  you investigate every bridge and tunnel on the system ?

The lowest 'roof' I found was the Harecastle tunnel where I had to go thru on my knees with my eyes just peeping over the cabin roof, never had to do that on any bridge we came across.

 

Guess we will just have to disagree on the usefulness of the dimension.

Ok, don't investigate and stick a wet finger into the air and guess. I was just pointing out a fact for the OP, I don't really give a shit what folk do, don't know why I bothered really. 

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We haven't discussed the obvious - the easiest way to get a king-size in a NB is to have a pull-out section. Our lengthwise bed is 4' at its smallest but pulls out to 5' if needed. We just have an extra 6" section and pull it out to a standard double so it is easy to walk past. Could make it a king-size if we wanted but we are both short-arses and prefer the extra floor space.

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Which bridge ?

Do  you investigate every bridge and tunnel on the system ?

The lowest 'roof' I found was the Harecastle tunnel where I had to go thru on my knees with my eyes just peeping over the cabin roof, never had to do that on any bridge we came across.

 

Guess we will just have to disagree on the usefulness of the dimension.

I can think of a couple including the one stoke side of the tunnel, don't remember the number, but the OP wouldn't do that in a widebeam anyway

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1 hour ago, MrsM said:

We haven't discussed the obvious - the easiest way to get a king-size in a NB is to have a pull-out section. Our lengthwise bed is 4' at its smallest but pulls out to 5' if needed. We just have an extra 6" section and pull it out to a standard double so it is easy to walk past. Could make it a king-size if we wanted but we are both short-arses and prefer the extra floor space.

 

The problem is not just how wide the bed is during the day to walk past it, it's how wide it is at night to walk round it when aged bladder syndrome strikes... 😉

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27 minutes ago, IanD said:

The problem is not just how wide the bed is during the day to walk past it, it's how wide it is at night to walk round it when aged bladder syndrome strikes... 😉

 

We found the bed on Helena just fine. 5ft but to one side works. Its a bit of a squeeze whatever time of day or night but nothing too difficult.

 

As I said earlier I would have that config. in my boat build, definitely.

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

The problem is not just how wide the bed is during the day to walk past it, it's how wide it is at night to walk round it when aged bladder syndrome strikes... 😉

 

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

We found the bed on Helena just fine. 5ft but to one side works. Its a bit of a squeeze whatever time of day or night but nothing too difficult.

 

As I said earlier I would have that config. in my boat build, definitely.

Or the OP just buys the widebeam he wants and has the bed he clearly needs, yes his cruising areas are smaller but the comfort more than makes up for it

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

Or the OP just buys the widebeam he wants and has the bed he clearly needs, yes his cruising areas are smaller but the comfort more than makes up for it

 

I think that is the way he will go TBH, but its nice to consider alternatives to ones initial plans.

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11 hours ago, MrsM said:

We haven't discussed the obvious - the easiest way to get a king-size in a NB is to have a pull-out section. Our lengthwise bed is 4' at its smallest but pulls out to 5' if needed. We just have an extra 6" section and pull it out to a standard double so it is easy to walk past. Could make it a king-size if we wanted but we are both short-arses and prefer the extra floor space.

 

Forget fitting it in the boat, what about getting it in a boat in the first place :)

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15 hours ago, IanD said:

A thicker baseplate means less ballast is needed, so less of a gap under the floor. However the difference is nothing like as big as Alan makes out...

 

If you replace a 10mm baseplate with 13mm, the extra 3mm of steel weighs about as much as 10mm of ballast (assuming something like engineering bricks or high-density concrete is used) because steel is just over 3x as dense (7.8x water) -- however the baseplate covers the whole bottom of the boat and ballast rarely does. It's still not going to let the floor be lowered by more than an inch or so, depending how much underfloor space can be filled with ballast -- certainly not 6". Going from a 10mm to a 13mm baseplate is unlikely to remove the need for ballast as Alan seems to be suggesting, the added weight for a narrowboat is about 800kg which will lower the boat in the water  by about an inch, normally rather more ballast than this is needed.

An extra 3mm of steel on the baseplate will put the boat an extra inch or so down in the water, so not a huge difference to the amount of ballast needed.

15 hours ago, jetzi said:

Dumb question probably, but is a cabin bilge really necessary - if you were to use a very thick baseplate, say 15mm or even 20mm, could you not just lay the floor directly on top of the steel and forgo ribs entirely? (correcting any list or trim issues with the potato weights Alan mentioned).

Where would any bilge water go?

And how would you attach the floorboards? Screw them down to the bottom plate?

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22 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Where would any bilge water go?

 

Well, where does bilge water come from? Condensation and leaks (hopefully above-waterline leaks!), right? So if you have a vapour seal between your interior fitout and the steel hull, there shouldn't be condensation on the inside of the hull. And if you do get water inside the inner lining, then it will end up on the floor to be mopped up. I guess what you're driving at is that you definitely DON'T want water underneath such a floor! And I agree. But my cabin bilge stays bone dry (can't say the same about my cruiser stern engine bilge, which is really my on-board paddling pool).

 

26 minutes ago, David Mack said:

how would you attach the floorboards? Screw them down to the bottom plate?

 

If you're laying tongue and groove type laminate flooring, cutting it to the correct size and laying it flat on the floor without any fixing should be fine, right? And if not, what about glue?

 

I'm just musing really... my bilge is about 4" of air and ballast, and I'm just wondering if it's really necessary in a properly sealed boat.

 

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9 minutes ago, jetzi said:

I'm just musing really... my bilge is about 4" of air and ballast, and I'm just wondering if it's really necessary in a properly sealed boat.

 

Ah that'll be one of those unicorn boats you mean. Where everything has been done properly with no mistakes, mishaps or problems, ever, in the past or in the future. Who builds them nowadays? I've forgotten! 

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28 minutes ago, jetzi said:

 

Well, where does bilge water come from? Condensation and leaks (hopefully above-waterline leaks!), right? So if you have a vapour seal between your interior fitout and the steel hull, there shouldn't be condensation on the inside of the hull. And if you do get water inside the inner lining, then it will end up on the floor to be mopped up. I guess what you're driving at is that you definitely DON'T want water underneath such a floor! And I agree. But my cabin bilge stays bone dry (can't say the same about my cruiser stern engine bilge, which is really my on-board paddling pool).

 

 

If you're laying tongue and groove type laminate flooring, cutting it to the correct size and laying it flat on the floor without any fixing should be fine, right? And if not, what about glue?

 

I'm just musing really... my bilge is about 4" of air and ballast, and I'm just wondering if it's really necessary in a properly sealed boat.

 

You can build straight onto the floor but I don't think I would want to. The air gap gives some insulation and somewhere for any water to move around in and escape. If you used a water-impervious floor such as vinyl then you could probably overcome the water issue but the floor would definitely feel cold.

 

What does work is taking the gap right down. In ours it is under 2" as the odd hull means we don't need any ballast beyond a bit of balancing trim weight.

 

In theory, you could run a narrowboat at 3' draft, losing only 3" to baseplate, air gap and flooring. That would allow 6'10" of headroom on under 5' of air draft. You would end up doing a lot of ploughing though. We have around 6'5" of headroom, draw 2'9" and have an air draft of under 5' so it is possible. Like everything around boats, it's a compromise.


Alec

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11 hours ago, peterboat said:

 

Or the OP just buys the widebeam he wants and has the bed he clearly needs, yes his cruising areas are smaller but the comfort more than makes up for it

I suspect this is the best outcome but it is good that Mr and Mrs OP know that a NB could work for them at a pinch.

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19 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I understand what you mean, but the bed could be on legs or a box set back underneath from the side so your feet fitted under the bed.

You don't need to put your feet down at the side of the bed at all.  You get out at the foot of the bed.  You can then have a ridiculously wide bed if you want.  Like a bigger version of the beds built into the bows of small GRP cruisers.  This is actually an easier set up for couples than most narrowboat beds since nobody has to clamber over anyone else to get out.  It's what I'd have if I were the OP. 

 

The main downside is that you can't walk straight through to the front deck, you can only have an emergency hatch above the bed.  I'd only want it with a cruiser or semi-crusier stern.  But if I was having a bespoke boat built, this is what I'd have.

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1 hour ago, jetzi said:

 

Well, where does bilge water come from? Condensation and leaks (hopefully above-waterline leaks!), right? So if you have a vapour seal between your interior fitout and the steel hull, there shouldn't be condensation on the inside of the hull. And if you do get water inside the inner lining, then it will end up on the floor to be mopped up. I guess what you're driving at is that you definitely DON'T want water underneath such a floor! And I agree. But my cabin bilge stays bone dry (can't say the same about my cruiser stern engine bilge, which is really my on-board paddling pool).

 

 

If you're laying tongue and groove type laminate flooring, cutting it to the correct size and laying it flat on the floor without any fixing should be fine, right? And if not, what about glue?

 

I'm just musing really... my bilge is about 4" of air and ballast, and I'm just wondering if it's really necessary in a properly sealed boat.

 

 

If you've ever lived in a house with tongue and groove flooring which has been installed tightly up to the walls with no gaps you'd know why this doesn't work -- with temperature and moisture changes it expands and contracts, and the net result is it either bulges upwards when it grows or gaps pull open when it shrinks. The only way to avoid this would be to glue it flat down to the baseplate over its whole area so it can't move, but then it would be very cold, so you'd then need a layer of insulation and battens on top with the real floor on top of this, which puts you right back to square one...

 

As mentioned above, if you need less ballast (or use steel/iron instead of brick/concrete) you can reduce the gap to a couple of inches, but whatever happens the top of the floor is still going to end up maybe 3" above the bottom of the baseplate. Don't forget that if you are going to put any ballast under the floor (which you'll need unless you have a *very* thick (and expensive) baseplate, a few 56lb weights won't be enough) it needs to fit in -- cheap council paving slabs are 2" thick, dense blue engineering bricks are 65mm thick...

 

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10 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You don't need to put your feet down at the side of the bed at all.  You get out at the foot of the bed.  You can then have a ridiculously wide bed if you want.  Like a bigger version of the beds built into the bows of small GRP cruisers.  This is actually an easier set up for couples than most narrowboat beds since nobody has to clamber over anyone else to get out.  It's what I'd have if I were the OP. 

 

The main downside is that you can't walk straight through to the front deck, you can only have an emergency hatch above the bed.  I'd only want it with a cruiser or semi-crusier stern.  But if I was having a bespoke boat built, this is what I'd have.

 

Which is what I said, and is fine if that suits you. I didn't like it -- try getting back into bed on a morning with two pint mugs of tea, or breakfast on a tray if you're feeling generous to your SOH 🙂

 

Sometimes the disadvantages aren't obvious until you've actually tried something... 😉

Edited by IanD
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15 hours ago, MrsM said:

We haven't discussed the obvious - the easiest way to get a king-size in a NB is to have a pull-out section. Our lengthwise bed is 4' at its smallest but pulls out to 5' if needed. We just have an extra 6" section and pull it out to a standard double so it is easy to walk past. Could make it a king-size if we wanted but we are both short-arses and prefer the extra floor space.

 

That's the worst option.  No way do I want to faff about making and un-making a bed every day.  My bed pulls out from 4' to 4'6".  It's never been pushed in.  It's has a standard 4'6" wide mattress on it.  No issues with width of floor space but I have a reverse layout so no need for walking back and forth past it all the time.

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4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You don't need to put your feet down at the side of the bed at all.  You get out at the foot of the bed.  You can then have a ridiculously wide bed if you want.  Like a bigger version of the beds built into the bows of small GRP cruisers.  This is actually an easier set up for couples than most narrowboat beds since nobody has to clamber over anyone else to get out.  It's what I'd have if I were the OP. 

 

The main downside is that you can't walk straight through to the front deck, you can only have an emergency hatch above the bed.  I'd only want it with a cruiser or semi-crusier stern.  But if I was having a bespoke boat built, this is what I'd have.

 

Same here. What I'd really like is a "dutch barge style" narrowboat, minimal tumblehome, with a vertical and very tall prow - I think that this design looks the nicest when you have the cabin as far forward as possible at the expense of a well deck, and it would maximise the internal width. But I'm far too narrow minded to consider anything more than a 6'10" beam.

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4 hours ago, tree monkey said:

Forget fitting it in the boat, what about getting it in a boat in the first place :)

 

Also a problem if your doors are reduced height (most are) and you want a proper sprung mattress. Could be one reason many people nowadays go for posh foam mattresses, they arrive compressed into a smaller box and anyway can be folded.

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12 hours ago, peterboat said:

 

Or the OP just buys the widebeam he wants and has the bed he clearly needs, yes his cruising areas are smaller but the comfort more than makes up for it

It's not just cruising areas, it's cost.  Of the boat, of the licence, of the mooring, of the maintenance, of the fuel.

 

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2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

That's the worst option.  No way do I want to faff about making and un-making a bed every day.  My bed pulls out from 4' to 4'6".  It's never been pushed in.  It's has a standard 4'6" wide mattress on it.  No issues with width of floor space but I have a reverse layout so no need for walking back and forth past it all the time.

 

My preference too, for the same reasons 🙂

 

A 4' "boat double" is definitely a bit narrow for two people. A standard 4'6" double is fine for most, that's why it's standard. A 5' king-size is luxurious if you've got the space, but that's exactly what narrowboats are short on 😉

 

Another example of practicality -- to save space (boat length) many boats with a lengthwise double have a 2' wide/deep wardrobe at the foot of the bed. Sounds great until you're the one on the inside and want to get out in the middle of the night, and have to wake up your SOH by pushing their feet out of the way or climbing over them instead of sliding off the bottom end on your own side, doesn't make you popular. Much better to have a gap between the bottom of the bed and the wardrobe/bulkhead, even though it needs more space.

 

Another example of why you should try something out in real life before deciding on it because it looks like a good idea...

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We are playing with space at the moment. Short and narrow really creates a lot of focus.

 

Fixed beds are a luxury we will have to do without, but then we don't live on it so it's fine for a couple of weeks to have to make up the bed. What we end up with is a fixed single lengthways in the back cabin, with a make-up top bunk above it. We then have a dinette right at the bow which is about 4'6" long. This will turn into a bed by sticking feet under the foredeck to get the length and dropping the table board into the centre section to make up a decent width (king size) bed. The down side is that you have to clamber over the gap in the centre of the headboard to get out, but it should work (well it has to - there are no other options!)

 

Alec

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