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Chicken and egg?


AndyE

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56 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

8ft seems a bit of a waste?  surely better lower it for better bridge clearance?

 

You'd think so wouldn't you? But I suggest you really do need to look at one moored up (especially a recently launched 65ft x 12ft 6in behemoth), and in particular note the height of it. Compare it to an adjacent narrowboat. Many will be at least a foot taller. 

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9 hours ago, dmr said:

I am not aware that widebeams have more headroom, I thought on balance it was the opposite, but I know very little about widebeams.

Any comments????

 

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

If anything, a widebeam will have a lower headroom to make up for the width problem in getting thru arched bridges - but I guess if you are having a bespoke one built (not one from a 'production' line like Aqualine or Colecraft) I guess you can have anything you want if you are prepared to pay.

 

We had a narrowboat with a 13mm base plate which meant the interior floor could be at least 6" lower than normal, remember that when you walk you 'lift' up on the balls of your feet and normally 'walk' about 3" higher than you actually are - my 6' 3" Son could easily walk down the NB without touching the roof.

 

Our current 14 foot 'fatty' is much lower roof height in parts of the boat.

 

 

A simple schematic to show a fat-boats height restriction compared to a narrow-boat height restriction. Hopefully self explanatory.

 

 

 

Arched Bridge and Widebeams.jpg

Just measured mine 6.6 foot at the sides and 6.9 in the middle and its a flatish  roof, not like a collingwood. I dont draw a lot of water and I have gone through the Glory hole with the wheelhouse up!

I can say to the Op that they are indeed a much nicer place to live than a narrowboat [I have had a narrowboat] especially at 12 foot wide, like others have said plenty of secondhand ones out there for sale go and have a look at one first

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9 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

You'd think so wouldn't you? But I suggest you really do need to look at one moored up (especially a recently launched 65ft x 12ft 6in behemoth), and in particular note the height of it. Compare it to an adjacent narrowboat. Many will be at least a foot taller. 

They could have a very small attic space with that internal height... be quite useful I'd think!

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9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Arched Bridge and Widebeams.jpg

Edited 9 hours ago by Alan de Enfield

That's Hawkesbury Junction isn't it. The photographer must have been standing outside the pub. I recognise the bridge and the tower blocks of Coventry in the distance. Although the bridge is wide, the locks are narrow beam only, including the stop lock just out of frame.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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28 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

But if there was sufficient depth of water you could add some temporary ballast to sit deeper in the water and get through the bridge.

Sounds fine, until you realise that to lower a wide beam that size by a foot would need about twenty tons of ballast...

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11 hours ago, AndyE said:

Hi,

 

Aspiring new boater here in search of the group's collective wisdom, please.

 

I know that this time next year I will have an empty nest and the funds to pay for a new build; currently thinking Aqualine. I know I'll need a wide beam as I need clear head height (slightly over 6'6") and a king-size bed where I can hang my feet over the end (as I normally do). I can't sleep curled up in a cabin bed.

 

 

 

 

It's entirely possible to have these in a narrowboat, so no, you don't need a widebeam.

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4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Have you not noticed the sheer height of many recent-build widebeams when they moor next to you? The roofline of the one that took the mooring next to my boat for a year towered a good 24" above the roofline of my own boat. 

 

Set against this is the shallow draft, but I think on balance the wider the beam, the taller the roof height has to be to keep the proportions of the boat looking right. Widebeams more than 25-ish years old tend to look oddly wide and flat as early builders tried to keep the roofline low to get under bridges but contemporary shell builders seem to have abandoned this and just build them high and in proportion. Also, the customers who buy them don't normally intend doing much cruising anyway so tend to see a high internal ceiling height as an advantage rather than a drawback - as illustrated perhaps by the OP. 

 

So widebeams are in general I think, significantly higher inside than NBs. 

 

 

 

I don't think this in a factor for many recent liveaboard widebeams, think squarebacks and wrap around cabin fronts.

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38 minutes ago, AndyE said:

Hi all, I want to thank you for the helpful and courteous answers. MrsM asks “Can the OP say what he wants to do with the boat?”. Good question and I’m sorry I didn’t elaborate further in the OP.

 

With my wife, I’d like to escape some harsh realities at home in Wiltshire and get to a peaceful “bolt-hole” on water. Some cruising would be needed, although some weekends at a pleasant marina will be just fine. Now, I’m not asking for anyone to solve the difficulties in my life. So here’s a more clear problem statement:

 

Maximise room in a

  • good quality boat,
  • for someone who is close to 6’7” and his wife,
  • with a bed that is king-size and has room for my feet overhanging at the end -  as mattresses have never, since childhood, been long enough for me.
  • The boat must be able to cruise the K&A and the Thames. Ideally more, but by no means does it need to reach the full extent of the network. Or, we might crane-lift the boat “up north” for an extended holiday some years.
  • A shower-over-bath would be ideal.
  • Buying a custom-build boat is feasible although the (original) statement holds true, that I need confidence that I should be able to find a mooring by the time the boat's built.

I’ve known many men tell me “I thought I was tall but… gee…” So don’t assume that if you’re 6’5” and OK in your boat then I’ll be fine. If I can’t stand up straight on-board then I’ll be very uncomfortable. I know this from holidays in historic cottages.

 

Thanks again for the helpful comments and support, and if you have more to add then I’d be happy to hear it. I hope I can make it work so that I can join the community.

 

Some comments on your requirements as they apply to a narrowboat...

 

If you do have a boat built -- note that most builders with a good reputation have long waiting lists at the moment -- then your height shouldn't be a problem. For roof height, get them to use a thicker baseplate than normal (e.g. 12mm or more) and build both the hull and cabin slightly deeper (maybe about 50mm each?), and ballast it deeper in the water. I seem to remember somebody tall on the forum did exactly this but I can't remember who, maybe they'll chime in...

 

Bed length is also no problem assuming it's lengthways (maximum length for a cross-bed is about 1850mm), you can have it as long as you want. If you arrange the boat properly to avoid lots of traffic through the bedroom (e.g. reverse layout with bedroom at the front) you can fit a permanent double bed (4'6") in with a walkway down the side, or a king-size (5') or bigger with no passage (closed bows) since it can fill the width of the boat -- so long as you're happy to climb in and out over the foot of the bed.

 

A shower-over-bath sounds attractive but due to water capacity restrictions (especially hot) is likely to get used as a bath rarely or never -- in most boats which have them fitted they're only ever used as a shower, so you might as well have a decent shower fitted which is better for the purpose.

 

A widebeam obviously has much more space but equally obviously has severe restrictions on where it can travel and moor -- moorings on both the K&A and especially the Thames are expensive and not easy to find. Very few wideboats do any significant amount of travelling round even the wide parts of the system, they mostly (with a very few exceptions...) sit in marinas or an online mooring or move around in one small place/area. So long as you're aware of all this it's much more like living in a house but also less like living in a boat that can go places... 😉

Edited by IanD
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Sounds like another brand new huge widebeam heading to the K&A.

Have not been there for a couple of years, is it full yet?

On our travels this year we have met a few die hard K&A folk who have moved Northwards and say they plan to never return

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Yet Mike Blackrose's widebeam is probably getting on for 8ft high in the centre.

 

6ft 10" high on the inside in the centre.

 

I forget what the exterior air-draft is but unlike many newer widebeams it isn't any higher than most narrowboats.

 

Draft is 2ft 2in.

 

2 hours ago, robtheplod said:

8ft seems a bit of a waste?  surely better lower it for better bridge clearance?

 

It's not 8ft. 

 

1 hour ago, Bee said:

 If you want to travel then its got to be a narrow boat.

 

Depending on where you want to travel. I've done plenty of waterways on mine. More than most narrowboaters I meet.

Edited by blackrose
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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think it is also true that on many waterways that seem wide enough when it comes to actual boating, wide beams see far harder to move. They tend to crawl along and zig-zag as well.

 

What experience do you have of moving widebeams? Mine is easier than my previous narrowboat but perhaps that's just because I'm used to it.

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

But if there was sufficient depth of water you could add some temporary ballast to sit deeper in the water and get through the bridge.

 

It takes a lot of ballast to get a big buoyant widebeam to sit even an inch lower in the water

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2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

What experience do you have of moving widebeams? Mine is easier than my previous narrowboat but perhaps that's just because I'm used to it.

 

It takes a lot of ballast to get a big buoyant widebeam to sit even an inch lower in the water

About two tons...

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

You'd think so wouldn't you? But I suggest you really do need to look at one moored up (especially a recently launched 65ft x 12ft 6in behemoth), and in particular note the height of it. Compare it to an adjacent narrowboat. Many will be at least a foot taller. 

 

It's mainly the newer Collingwoods that have the increased air-draft. They seem to have very little tumblehome too so those high, almost vertical bow cabin corners are prone to hitting bridge arches. My 2005 boat is 12ft wide but no higher than most narrowboats.

Edited by blackrose
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1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

It's mainly the newer Collingwoods that have the increased air-draft. My 2005 boat is 12ft wide but no higher than most narrowboats.

Certainly standing inside a Collingwood Hoxley the headroom is (even for me) unnecessarily high. An Aqualine Canterbury is fine apart from the central strip which, I understand, need not be fitted. So, back to the problem of custom vs 2nd-hand... Anyway, I wish boat builders would specify the head height more clearly. There's every other stat under the sun. But I appreciate that I'm not the norm.

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1 minute ago, AndyE said:

Certainly standing inside a Collingwood Hoxley the headroom is (even for me) unnecessarily high. An Aqualine Canterbury is fine apart from the central strip which, I understand, need not be fitted. So, back to the problem of custom vs 2nd-hand... Anyway, I wish boat builders would specify the head height more clearly. There's every other stat under the sun. But I appreciate that I'm not the norm.

 

You're better off judging the headroom in any boat by standing in an existing boat than by asking a builder to estimate the headroom they'll give you. Another good reason to buy second hand.

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45 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

What experience do you have of moving widebeams? Mine is easier than my previous narrowboat but perhaps that's just because I'm used to it.

 

 

Proper boat shaped wide beams, a fair bit on the Thames, where even a wide beam "narrowboat" will handle well enough. Otherwise just following them on smaller rivers and wide beam southern canals. It is what I have observed.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

It's entirely possible to have these in a narrowboat, so no, you don't need a widebeam.

 

We once hired a boat (Helena from Napton NB's) that had a lovely large bed in the front cabin. It was obviously a reverse layout. The bed ran length ways and was permanent. Nothing to fold out to make the bed up. There was just enough room for the person on the inside to slide out the bottom if needed. It was 6ft 9in long and 5 feet wide.

 

It is true that it was a bit of a tight squeeze to get past to the front door but nothing too difficult and the slight inconvenience was well worth the additional comfort and convenience come bed time.

 

I can't recall ever seeing anything the same on any privately owned boats and I honestly don't know why it's not more common. It would be my choice if we were ever in position to have a boat built.

 

The other option would be the layout Stenson used to do (possibly still do) with the bed right in the centre far up into the bow but that design loses the front well deck and only has an emergency window hatch right at the front with steps and a side hatch near the foot of the bed. Not really ideal IMHO.

 

Napton boat

 

Elite bedroom.JPG

 

Stenson boat

 

 

Stenson boat.JPG

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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15 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

We once hired a boat (Helena from Napton NB's) that had a lovely large bed in the front cabin. It was obviously a reverse layout. The bed ran length ways and was permanent. Nothing to fold out to make the bed up. There was just enough room for the person on the inside to slide out the bottom if needed. It was 6ft 9in long and 5 feet wide.

 

It is true that it was a bit of a tight squeeze to get past to the front door but nothing too difficult and the slight inconvenience was well worth the additional comfort and convenience come bed time.

 

I can't recall ever seeing anything the same on any privately owned boats and I honestly don't know why it's not more common. It would be my choice if we were ever in position to have a boat built.

 

The other option would be the layout Stenson used to do (possibly still do) with the bed right in the centre far up into the bow but that design loses the front well deck and only has an emergency window hatch right at the front with steps and a side hatch near the foot of the bed. Not really ideal IMHO.

 

Napton boat

 

Elite bedroom.JPG

 

Stenson boat

 

 

Stenson boat.JPG

 

This is really helpful, thanks. At the risk of opening a can of worms, would you be able to advise / know the sort of companies that would be worth talking to about this sort of layout? That is, a quality custom boat builder with something like a 12mo. lead time? Sorry for another naïve question.

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5 minutes ago, AndyE said:

 

This is really helpful, thanks. At the risk of opening a can of worms, would you be able to advise / know the sort of companies that would be worth talking to about this sort of layout? That is, a quality custom boat builder with something like a 12mo. lead time? Sorry for another naïve question.

 

Somebody like Aqua Narrowboats would be worth talking to. But their next available slot is March 2023!! (according to their web site)

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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This is the sort of layout mentioned above, a 6'9" x 5' bed should suit you just fine 🙂

 

https://www.napton-marina.co.uk/boats/elite/elite_2.php

https://www.napton-marina.co.uk/boats/regency/regency_2.php

 

Just be aware that the clearance to get past is pretty tight with a 5' king-size, you need to think when you're going to need to do it. Internal width is usually about 6'1" (1850mm) which leaves 13" between mattress and wall, but then the gunwale steps in by several inches. OK during the day, I found it less so at night if there's a quilt hanging down and you're the one on the inside wanting to get past without sitting on somebody else. Getting up in the night happens more when you're no longer a honeymoon couple... 😉

 

(the obvious solution would be to hire a Napton boat and see what you think -- dirt cheap compared to getting a boat built with a layout you regret afterwards...)

 

The end-on-in-the-bows bed layout has been used in quite a few boats, but again you really need to try it to see if it suits -- having a huge wide bed is great, but try getting in carrying a full mug of tea and a biscuit... 😉

Edited by IanD
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2 hours ago, AndyE said:

 

  • good quality boat,
  • for someone who is close to 6’7” and his wife,
  • with a bed that is king-size and has room for my feet overhanging at the end -  as mattresses have never, since childhood, been long enough for me.
  • The boat must be able to cruise the K&A and the Thames. Ideally more, but by no means does it need to reach the full extent of the network. Or, we might crane-lift the boat “up north” for an extended holiday some years.

 If you are 6 foot 7 and want a bed you can share a wide beam is probably a good bet. At your height you will need the bed to run length way along the boat on a narrow boat and  "double bed" in tha arrangement on a narrow boat is often not that much bigger than single bed at home - I'm 5 foot 5 and at my height such a bed is fun to share occasionally with one's intimate other but not as a regular thing. 

You don't have to go the whole hog on wide beams though - 10 foot beam gives an astonishing amount of space - you'll get a proper king size bed on a ten foot beam boat

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