Jump to content

Walkers of Rickmans worth "Small ricky" drawings


Featured Posts

Yes, the pictures work. Far less of a mess than Hagley was - the website isn't currently working but will be again shortly - http://www.confusion.org/narrowboat/hagley/. I vaguely remember from 20+ years ago that someone found the original blueprints for Sirius and Arcturus and have made enquiries as to whether the relevant people might remember their whereabouts.

 

Alec

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good morning Gents.

 

Hesperus is now afloat and will be drydocked on Thursday to Saturday for emergency repairs to the planking behind the knees as she is unfortunately leaking like a river where she has constantly been raised and sunk and repeat.

 

Anyone is welcome to come and see her in drydock please PM me for dates and times since the location I am using does not wish to be floaded with visitors.

 

Cheers

MR L

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

"Hesperus" In the drydock.

 

Emptied and  washed Hesperus out of all the mud and rubbish that was dumped in her over the years, Removed the Ruston 2VSH engine, and shes now beginning to look like a boat again.

 

Hesperus has had her Counter block reattached and the bow has been "sureed up" the bow as that's at risk of breaking off as the stem post is at risk of becoming detached, the bow planks are beyond rotten, the rot has been hidden behind the ice plating on the bow, and all require replacement, I have been able to get a good source of timber and will be putting Hesperus back in the dock next year for the bow to be rebuilt along with seven bottom planks as these have huge holes right out the bottom of the boat.

 

I shall let the photos doo the rest of the telling now.

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

All from Me on this post hope you enjoy the photos.

 

MR L

  • Greenie 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
3 hours ago, stagedamager said:

The latest word on the street is CRT are looking to break up the Ariel and retain the metalwork....... has anyone heard anything?

I can quite happily reassure you that CRT are not planning to "Break up" Ariel. That is just another unfortunate rumour in circulation at the moment.

 

I shall dispel a few of those rumours soon.

 

Ariel is moored at long Buckby VM moorings where she unfortunately sank after a someone stole the bilge pump battery's from the bow and stern, while I was dealing with Hesperus at the drydock.

Ariel is due in drydock soon where she will undergo a complete inspection and a long term plan drawn up for her overhaul, Hesperus, Is having new Bow knees made along with a stem post and I am currently sourcing the oak for the planking for the bow on her.

 

Mr Lister

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is excellent news (not the bit about the batteries being stolen).

 

I have a particular interest in wooden boats, having co-owned and personally rebuilt large parts of Hagley and Samson, so I am well aware of the challenges involved. A personal hobby horse is that wooden boats should be recognised for their specific combination of heritage value and the complexity and cost of retaining them, with some specific terms applying as a consequence, but I am also well aware that my opinion doesn't count for anything on that point.

 

If you need sources for oak, do let me know as I may be able to help (through my own experience I am aware of some sympathetic sources).

 

On a related point, have you spotted the diesel tanks from GUCCC Epsom for sale? Town Class rather than Star Class, but potentially relevant.

 

Alec

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, agg221 said:

That is excellent news (not the bit about the batteries being stolen).

 

I have a particular interest in wooden boats, having co-owned and personally rebuilt large parts of Hagley and Samson, so I am well aware of the challenges involved. A personal hobby horse is that wooden boats should be recognised for their specific combination of heritage value and the complexity and cost of retaining them, with some specific terms applying as a consequence, but I am also well aware that my opinion doesn't count for anything on that point.

 

If you need sources for oak, do let me know as I may be able to help (through my own experience I am aware of some sympathetic sources).

 

On a related point, have you spotted the diesel tanks from GUCCC Epsom for sale? Town Class rather than Star Class, but potentially relevant.

 

Alec

At present I am having a little difficulty sourcing oak in the lengths needed for Hesperus ranging from 25 feet long up to 35 feet long.

 

I can secure oak up to 20 foot in length but it needs planking and seasoning, since it was recently felled, I am trying to work to a basic drawing found in the Walkers book for the dimensions of the planks, I am also working from David Blagrove's book, "Waterways of Northampton", to gauge the proportions of the boats and redo Hesperus's stern as it is currently the wrong shape along with her bow, It looks like it was rebuilt previously and I also have information that, "KeelKast", did work on the boat in the past as Hesperus's current bow shape does not resemble a Little Rickey at present in my opinion.

 

 

Mr Lister

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, agg221 said:

I will put some feelers out. Do you have means of transport?

 

A couple of points that may help.

 

I would take your dimensions for the planks more from what's there for primary width and a good look over a surviving bow and stern (Sirius and Arcturus?) if possible. My limited experience of Walkers is that planks were ultimately more based on what was available than to drawing - there are parts in the chine of Hagley where a strip was fixed in on top of the plank in places to bring it up to width, and having spoken to the son of one of the builders, they really weren't that precise (apparently they were half cut on beer a lot of the time!) The lengths would never have been pre-determined, planks being used at full length as they came from bow and stern and then cutting in the middle to fit. Hagley was a mix of 3 and 4 planks along the length, with a couple at 5 where they had used 15-20' planks in from each end and filled in the short bit in the middle. Milling seems to be simple through-and-through sawn, with cupping controlled by fixings and planing out at the end. I found it much easier to fit new planks over the old, leaving the new plank wide, than trying to template up that accurately. I did use templates to check planks were big enough but any plank with a twist as well as a bend throws the profile off. I cut my templates out of damp proof membrane as I could tack a length to the hull, feel where the plank edges were and slit it. I could then roll the templates up for storage (I still have them), writing any notes on with a permanent marker.

 

I wouldn't personally worry too much about trying to replicate original plank joint positions. You can afford to cut the bad fore end of a plank and leave the back part alone if it's still sound. This approach means you don't need so many long planks - what is important is to stagger the scarf joints over the knees so you wouldn't do this to all planks around the bow for example, but you could cut 12' out of one and 20' out of the ones above and below with no problems. It would be good to have a 25' plank on each corner, but more than that isn't essential. Bending in much under 12' is difficult. This approach gives you the shape and is more about repair, restoration and conservation (retention of original material where possible) rather than trying to replicate something which is largely conjectural anyway. In similar vein, it doesn't look so nice but if the top part of the sides and shearing are both sound then it is possible to cut the shearing across a panel in a horizontal line and only replace part of it. Trying to replace a plank without replacing the shearing behind it is doomed though - the shearing always breaks.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about seasoning for planks below the water line. In theory to achieve air dry you need six months per inch of thickness, so a year for a hull planks, but in practice if it goes in wetter than that, it won't shrink while it's in the water!

 

This time of year is a good point to get milling done. Being cold and damp the surface of the timber doesn't dry faster than water can migrate out from the centre, so  the surface doesn't start to shrink before the middle, resulting in cracks. Do you have a source for milling the timber you have access to? If not I know a few - whereabouts in the country do you need the mill?

 

I would strongly suggest that you have a look at your source for oak and look through the shorter lengths for curves for knees, cabin frames and shearing. Making shearing is extremely boring - you don't want to be paying a high rate for it so it's worth considering separating that job out to someone with fast equipment (bandsaw) and a lower skilled hourly rate. In my case, the hourly rate was the same as I milled all the timber.

 

Have you got the timber for the stem and stern posts? Stern post is as I recall pretty straight but the stem post has a distinctive curve - I might have a piece that would make one (it has the necessary lump on the top for the return). Not sure what condition it's in but if needed I can have a look. You need a good idea of the bow shape, including in plan, before starting on the posts. It makes a surprising difference to the piece of timber you need.

 

Are you doing any of the work or are you having it all done? If you are doing any yourself then happy to comment on tools and sundry materials, or anything else that may be useful (so long as I'm not boring you!)

 

Alec

Thanks for the reply Alec.

 

I unfortunately do not have transport however I can get that arranged without much bother.

 

As to your comment on the work being done, I am doing all the work including milling all timber, myself, apart from the hull planking, aboard my 38ft BWB work flat boat, that I also liveaboard, I have a very large and very old bandsaw that I belt drive from a Lister SR2, I also have a large table saw driven from, guess what, another Lister SR2 engine, Both I rebuilt a couple of years ago, I am hoping to make everything for the pair myself, With advice given along the way since this is a learning process as well since this these are my first wooden pair, I have riveted a bow before, tiring hard labour I can tell you that, Any advice on tools is welcome, I have a good supplier for oakum and felt to go behind the shearing, I am planning these rebuilds to take five to eight years each and doing one at a time to help with the costs.

 

Differently not boring me at all, I am extremely keen to learn of the ideas and uses in these boats to try and keep them going.

 

Mr Lister

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In case it helps point you in the right direction, a customer of mine builds traditional oak-framed barns for a living. He owns an oak Forest in Virginia, USA where he fells trees for each project. He also says oak needs working into shape green not seasoned as the more time that passes after felling, the harder and less 'workable' the oak becomes. 

 

My point being, contact some oak barn constructors for info on where to find new oak in really large sizes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The condition of the oak you are going to use is a bit more complex than merely whether it is green or seasoned. Both barn builders and boat builders, use different conditions of timber  depending upon the build, and how it needs to be worked. May I suggest that the OP contacts someone like Jem Bates for advice and information on possible sources of timber:-    http://www.batesboatyard.co.uk/

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

The condition of the oak you are going to use is a bit more complex than merely whether it is green or seasoned. Both barn builders and boat builders, use different conditions of timber  depending upon the build, and how it needs to be worked. May I suggest that the OP contacts someone like Jem Bates for advice and information on possible sources of timber:-    http://www.batesboatyard.co.uk/

 

 

I have played with both (oak framed construction and wooden canal boats). Boats are decidedly easier on the whole.

 

The image below shows the single most awkward thing I have had to make - the post connecting a ridge beam and spanning beam. Both beams were already in place, as was the whole roof over the ridge beam, held up with an Acrow. The post had to connect them. It slides in to the end of the ridge beam using an open tenon (I would have preferred a positive lock but no option on this one as I couldn't lift the ridge beam or drop the spanning beam) and then uses a sliding tenon driven downwards into the mortice in the spanning beam, with a second spacer and cross-wedges to lock it in. The clue that it is a sliding tenon is that it is pegged into both the beam and the post. Figuring out the correct joint and then making the very deep mortice (mallet and chisel), and then installing it without damaging the adjacent water tank and associated plumbing or the new roof was extremely awkward. One thing about this joint is that you only get one shot - once it's in, that's it. The other complication is that whilst it would normally be built green, the fact that the rest of the structure was dry by this time meant I had to use seasoned timber to avoid differential shrinkage, making it much hard to cut. The post was therefore cut as a blank at the same time as the other two beams so that it was ready.

 

Comparatively, there are no really difficult parts on a wooden boat. It's just a matter of learning how the timber will move and cutting the appropriate shaped parts with the right level of accuracy. We rebuilt Hagley at Jem Bates' yard which is where I learned, and then I did Samson with my wife.


Alec

 

No photo description available.

  • Greenie 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mr Lister may find it useful to look at the long, and beautifully illustrated by photos, thread by Chris Collins about his  rebuild of Progress, the GJCC  wooden wide beam. 

 

I suspect a chat with Chris would also be worth while as he has rebuilt at least two wooden Ricky boats.

 

N

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, agg221 said:

I have played with both (oak framed construction and wooden canal boats). Boats are decidedly easier on the whole.

 

The image below shows the single most awkward thing I have had to make - the post connecting a ridge beam and spanning beam. Both beams were already in place, as was the whole roof over the ridge beam, held up with an Acrow. The post had to connect them. It slides in to the end of the ridge beam using an open tenon (I would have preferred a positive lock but no option on this one as I couldn't lift the ridge beam or drop the spanning beam) and then uses a sliding tenon driven downwards into the mortice in the spanning beam, with a second spacer and cross-wedges to lock it in. The clue that it is a sliding tenon is that it is pegged into both the beam and the post. Figuring out the correct joint and then making the very deep mortice (mallet and chisel), and then installing it without damaging the adjacent water tank and associated plumbing or the new roof was extremely awkward. One thing about this joint is that you only get one shot - once it's in, that's it. The other complication is that whilst it would normally be built green, the fact that the rest of the structure was dry by this time meant I had to use seasoned timber to avoid differential shrinkage, making it much hard to cut. The post was therefore cut as a blank at the same time as the other two beams so that it was ready.

 

Comparatively, there are no really difficult parts on a wooden boat. It's just a matter of learning how the timber will move and cutting the appropriate shaped parts with the right level of accuracy. We rebuilt Hagley at Jem Bates' yard which is where I learned, and then I did Samson with my wife.


Alec

 

No photo description available.

 

That is an impressive job. Although creating a double ended tennon to repair a broken tennon is standard practise in cabinet work (using fox wedges rather than pegs), I would not want to undertake such a multiple complex of joints, especially 10ft up in the air.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

That is an impressive job. Although creating a double ended tennon to repair a broken tennon is standard practise in cabinet work (using fox wedges rather than pegs), I would not want to undertake such a multiple complex of joints, especially 10ft up in the air.

I do like fox wedged tenons, and secret dovetails, and other elegant joints. There are some really neat joint designs used on those rafters too - housed birdsmouths at the lower ends and a joint I found in a book on early American colonial barns at the top, which doesn't have a name but allows the pair of rafters to meet at the top, key in to the ridge so that they can't slide down (not reliant on the peg), form a line so that the outer face of the rafter intersects with the upper corner of the ridge so no gaps when plastering, and comply with the rule of not cutting out more than a third of the thickness of the rafter. I had to sit astride the ridge beam 20' up in the air to cut those ones in, which was fine until I discovered there was a hornets' nest in the wall behind me and I was directly in the flightpath!

 

By comparison, pretty much all joints on a boat are little more than a butt or lap joint and held by the fixings - spikes originally, either clenched or roved originally, depending on the quality of the work, but pragmatically these days they are usually fitted with galvanised coach screws. For Hagley we used coach screws but Samson was done with spikes and roves. There was no suitable source of either, so I ended up forging my own. Scarfs are just an extended butt joint. The only joints which have slightly more precision to them are a few tenons and the wedged scarf joints along the kelson, although a perfectly acceptable and probably stronger approach is to make the kelson out of two layers of 2" plank with nothing more than staggered butt joints. Not as elegant but pragmatically it's a lot easier to make, manoeuvre into place and does not rely on finding such long material.

 

Alec

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I noticed that Laurence Hogg was mentioned.

Got me thinking. He was incredibly knowledgeable and had a lot of hard copies of very useful stuff related to canal boats. 

 

What happened to all of his stuff? 

 

It's sad if it all ended up getting binned. One would hope that this sort of knowledge base would get looked after. Possibly by a museum but I know they put things in drawers and frequently sell them off. 

 

His boat plan diagrams must be somewhere. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

I noticed that Laurence Hogg was mentioned.

Got me thinking. He was incredibly knowledgeable and had a lot of hard copies of very useful stuff related to canal boats. 

 

What happened to all of his stuff? 

 

It's sad if it all ended up getting binned. One would hope that this sort of knowledge base would get looked after. Possibly by a museum but I know they put things in drawers and frequently sell them off. 

 

His boat plan diagrams must be somewhere. 

Most of the drawings he got from the crt archives and where needed, re-drew them. I don't know what happened to his collection, I agree it would be a shame if it was lost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, stagedamager said:

Most of the drawings he got from the crt archives and where needed, re-drew them. I don't know what happened to his collection, I agree it would be a shame if it was lost.

I believe that, rather against his wishes, his photo collection and other artefacts went to CRT.  I am sure the was an earlier post on here about it.

N

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, agg221 said:

I do like fox wedged tenons, and secret dovetails, and other elegant joints. There are some really neat joint designs used on those rafters too - housed birdsmouths at the lower ends and a joint I found in a book on early American colonial barns at the top, which doesn't have a name but allows the pair of rafters to meet at the top, key in to the ridge so that they can't slide down (not reliant on the peg), form a line so that the outer face of the rafter intersects with the upper corner of the ridge so no gaps when plastering, and comply with the rule of not cutting out more than a third of the thickness of the rafter. I had to sit astride the ridge beam 20' up in the air to cut those ones in, which was fine until I discovered there was a hornets' nest in the wall behind me and I was directly in the flightpath!

 

By comparison, pretty much all joints on a boat are little more than a butt or lap joint and held by the fixings - spikes originally, either clenched or roved originally, depending on the quality of the work, but pragmatically these days they are usually fitted with galvanised coach screws. For Hagley we used coach screws but Samson was done with spikes and roves. There was no suitable source of either, so I ended up forging my own. Scarfs are just an extended butt joint. The only joints which have slightly more precision to them are a few tenons and the wedged scarf joints along the kelson, although a perfectly acceptable and probably stronger approach is to make the kelson out of two layers of 2" plank with nothing more than staggered butt joints. Not as elegant but pragmatically it's a lot easier to make, manoeuvre into place and does not rely on finding such long material.

 

Alec

 

I had never heard of a housed birdsmouth joint, but recognised the profile immediately when I looked it up, I must have cut dozens in my time but never knew the correct name.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have quite a few drawings from various sources - I'll try to find time to dig them out. As I'm stuck in Twickenham for a few months it's probably time for me to get rid of a lot of other stuff such a guaging rods, cans, windlasses etc too. 🤷‍♂️

 

Tam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, BEngo said:

I believe that, rather against his wishes, his photo collection and other artefacts went to CRT.  I am sure the was an earlier post on here about it.

N

I gave him dad's slide collection not long before he died, hope these have been given to a good end user with Laurences collection and not just thrown in a corner, dad was also against giving them to a museum even though he had worked at Avoncroft and The BCLM 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last year I was made aware of another significant archive from a now deceased enthusiast. He indicated that he would wish CRT to curate this. Their response was that monies would have to be paid to offset curation costs. Amazing!

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.