Reliable calorifier suppliers?

[wetfoot]

It looks like I'm going to have to replace my calorifier as its leaking and I can't seem to fix the leak in spite of one soldered patch and two epoxy patches on top.

I'm looking at around 72 litres, vertical, twin coil, about 900 x 350mm

 

I've seen some that I like from heatmyboat.co.uk and their prices are reasonable but the photo on their site is identical to that on the Kuranda site where not only are the sizes slightly different but the prices are over double those on heatmyboat.co.uk. In addition, the contact email for heatmyboat is actually the same as that for cylinders2go.co.uk.

 

I'm new to this. Has anyone had any dealings with heatmyboat? Are they legit? Has anyone bought a calorifier from them and found it OK or not OK?

 

regards

[MtB]

If you google the address from their website, they seem to be connected in some way with Telford Cylinders, who are actually a well regarded supplier of copper cylinders and thermal stores. 

 

Copper cylinders are totally commoditised nowadays, with long chains of suppliers all subbing out the work to another company up the chain. Telford often lie at the top so I wouldn't worry too much about a cheap price. Its probably exactly the same cylinder from the same factory as the one twice the price. 

[cuthound]

Surecal are a well respected marine calorifier manufacturer.

 

They are not cheap though.

 

https://www.surejust.co.uk/surecal

[matty40s]

7 hours ago, cuthound said:

Surecal are a well respected marine calorifier manufacturer.

 

They are not cheap though.

 

https://www.surejust.co.uk/surecal

Surecal were respected.

Recently, many issues with build quality and checking.

Such as, no return valves installed on wrong side and wrong way round, immersion boss not tightened up on 2, hose fittings not sealed, etc....

[IanD]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

Surecal were respected.

Recently, many issues with build quality and checking.

Such as, no return valves installed on wrong side and wrong way round, immersion boss not tightened up on 2, hose fittings not sealed, etc....

Any better suggestions nowadays?

Edited October 4, 2021 by IanD

[wetfoot]

18 hours ago, matty40s said:

Surecal were respected.

Recently, many issues with build quality and checking.

Such as, no return valves installed on wrong side and wrong way round, immersion boss not tightened up on 2, hose fittings not sealed, etc....

I'd probably fit all those myself anyway. Not only will I know it has been done properly but my old calorifier already has some fittings on it that I could re-use.

Maybe surecal are expensive because they supply all those fittings as well

[MtB]

17 hours ago, IanD said:

Any better suggestions nowadays?

 

Yes. 

 

Newark Copper Cylinder Co Ltd are another well-regarded cylinder fabricator and I see from their website they have now noticed the marine calorifier market. Their prices for custom cylinders are (or were) surprisingly competitive.

 

https://newarkcylinders.co.uk/marine-calorifiers.html

 

 

 

 

 

[blackrose]

Not referring to the well respected manufacturers above, but a lot of the calorifiers fitted in canal boats seem like they're just cheap household cylinders modified with an extra coil for the engine and then marketed as "marine calorifiers".

 

Anyway, whether going down the well-respected or cheap and cheerful route, the most important thing is to make sure you fit an expansion vessel to the system, especially if you have a non-return valve fitted in the cold feed pipe to the calorifier. It can simply be a stainless accumulator tank of roughly 8% of the volume of the calorifier Td off anywhere on the hot side downstream of the NRV. This will ensure that the calorifier isn't having to cope with the continual expansion and contraction of the water in the tank which can put stresses on the copper tank over time and cause it to fracture and fail. 

 

I don't know if this happens with stainless tanks but one supplier I met at a boat show told me that in general copper tanks were fairly cheaply made. On the other hand I suppose he would say that.

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Copper marine calorifiers are made from thicker copper sheet than domestic ones unless the domestic is intended for a sealed pressurised mains fed storage.

 

A custom made one may be a good bet as with a bit of careful measuring and a drawing you could get all the tappings in exactly the same place as the original saving lots of pipework alterations.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Tracy D'arth

[pearley]

13 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Anyway, whether going down the well-respected or cheap and cheerful route, the most important thing is to make sure you fit an expansion vessel to the system, especially if you have a non-return valve fitted in the cold feed pipe to the calorifier. It can simply be a stainless accumulator tank of roughly 8% of the volume of the calorifier Td off anywhere on the hot side downstream of the NRV. This will ensure that the calorifier isn't having to cope with the continual expansion and contraction of the water in the tank which can put stresses on the copper tank over time and cause it to fracture and fail. 

My new boat doesn't have an expansion vessel, at least not one I can find. Unfortunately, due to the calorifier location, the closest accessible space is some 40 feet and 2 taps away. Surecal technical tell me it's probably a waste of time fitting one there.

[Tracy D'arth]

11 minutes ago, pearley said:

My new boat doesn't have an expansion vessel, at least not one I can find. Unfortunately, due to the calorifier location, the closest accessible space is some 40 feet and 2 taps away. Surecal technical tell me it's probably a waste of time fitting one there.

I think they are wrong, it will work no matter where on the HOT pipe it is fitted.

[Tonka]

32 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I think they are wrong, it will work no matter where on the HOT pipe it is fitted.

Are you quoting a fact this time or is it just a hunch

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

I don't know if this happens with stainless tanks but one supplier I met at a boat show told me that in general copper tanks were fairly cheaply made. On the other hand I suppose he would say that.

 

Yes it does. When I bought my boat in 2014 the last thing the previous owner paid for was £700 to replace a split stainless steel Surecal calorifier. 

 

One of the first jobs I did was to fit an expansion vessel to avoid a repeat performance.

[Kendorr]

5 hours ago, MtB said:

Yes. 

 

Newark Copper Cylinder Co Ltd are another well-regarded cylinder fabricator

 

Another satisfied customer here, well recommended.

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

Are you quoting a fact this time or is it just a hunch

 

It is fact  as long as you don't have a thermostatic mixing valve between calorifier and expansion vessel. Pascal's law says pressure is equal throughout a system, so any pressure rise will be felt equally throughout the hot system. However, water is very slightly compressible, and the pipes may swell a very little under pressure, so given a long enough pipe run it would reduce the pressure rise. I doubt the runs are long enough to do any practical good on a boat.

 

In fact with no NRV at the calorifier inlet the accumulator would act as an expansion vessel to a degree, depending upon volume.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

Are you quoting a fact this time or is it just a hunch

A strange reply.    With some animosity?      But why?

I deal in engineering fact, The pressure in a system without any valves to close off any part will be equal throughout.

[Tonka]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

A strange reply.    With some animosity?      But why?

I deal in engineering fact, The pressure in a system without any valves to close off any part will be equal throughout.

Well you did not deal with facts when you stated that the John Deere Jd3 and the Ford Bd3 were made in the same factory. You refused to provide proof so now I do not trust anything you type.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

Well you did not deal with facts when you stated that the John Deere Jd3 and the Ford Bd3 were made in the same factory. You refused to provide proof so now I do not trust anything you type.

Don't be childish. I did not state that they were out of the same factory, read the post again please.

 

I am terribly cut up that you now do not trust anything I say so If I say you are childish it matters not a jot!

[wetfoot]

Ok, thanks for the replies, some of which were very helpful.

 

In the end I went with HeatMyBoat and ordered a 70 litre twin coil, vertical calorifier for £345. I'll use the old pressure relief vale from the old one that I'm taking out. The boat already has an accumulator.

 

I did consider getting a mixer valve as well but since the shower is a mixer shower and both the sink and basin taps are single outlet mixer types there seems little point since the mixing is done at the point of use and getting scalded is not usually a problem if the cold tap is run first. Besides the Webasto only outputs at 72 degrees so the water in the calorifier won't get ridiculously hot. The engine is not run frequently enough nor for long enough to get the water up to full engine temperature. 

 

This is all interesting stuff though

 

[pearley]

4 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I think they are wrong, it will work no matter where on the HOT pipe it is fitted.

I assume they know their stuff

 

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, pearley said:

I assume they know their stuff

 

Except, they clearly do not know the science related to their products. I bet the OP was directed to a sales person rather than a technical one. Of course, if you think Pascal was wrong and all those working with his principles since are also wrong, then your assumption is correct, but I rather doubt it is.

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Except, they clearly do not know the science related to their products. I bet the OP was directed to a sales person rather than a technical one. Of course, if you think Pascal was wrong and all those working with his principles since are also wrong, then your assumption is correct, but I rather doubt it is.

Pascal(the foreign bloke who knew stuff) went home after Brexit so it's just Peter in the office now, he sells blue things.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, pearley said:

I assume they know their stuff

 

 

Never assume anything where engineering is concerned. My personal maxim developed from decades of experience in plumbing is "assumption is the mother of all cock-ups".

[blackrose]

7 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I think they are wrong, it will work no matter where on the HOT pipe it is fitted.

 

I agree, it's not the distance that's important. If the expansion tank is downstream of the NRV (assuming there is one) then it's effectively part of the same pressure vessel even if it's 40ft away from the calorifier. On the other hand if there's no NRV in the cold water feed to the calorifier then an expansion vessel may be a waste of time because the expansion is accommodated by heating the water in the cold feed pipe. Not ideal but it's how lots of boat plumbing systems are set up. 

 

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

In fact with no NRV at the calorifier inlet the accumulator would act as an expansion vessel to a degree, depending upon volume.

 

Heating the cold pipes is just an inefficient waste of hot water and power if you're using an immersion heater on shore power for example.

 

2 hours ago, pearley said:

I assume they know their stuff

 

 

I wouldn't. Lots of boat equipment suppliers don't.

Edited October 5, 2021 by blackrose

[TheBiscuits]

7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is fact  as long as you don't have a thermostatic mixing valve between calorifier and expansion vessel.

 

I'm not sure that's correct Tony.  I think the mixer valve always allows some hot water out but adds cold water above the set temperature, so there should always be a way for the pressure to equalise either side of the valve.

 

Certainly Surecal installation instructions tell you to put the expansion vessel after the valve:

 

An expansion bottle should be fitted on the hot supply between the thermostatic mixer and first take off (i.e. Taps) This will relieve the increased pressure caused by hot water expansion.

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by TheBiscuits
Add a bit