Enough is enough!

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Ooh, boat apartheid -- what can possibly go wrong? 😉

 

Just wait till Peter gets banned from the Aire & Calder for being in too small a boat

 

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I talked to some friends today about this subject and then Dave the marina owner, they and he thought you barking! The boat owners said they couldn't afford the rises and Dave said most marinas would close so CRT would lose that revenue stream as well! He thought the canals would be closed within a couple of years at the most, given that he has 40 years experience I think he is correct along with the boaters. I in some ways hope your wishes come true as it will be funny to see chickens coming home to roost! Me I would flog my boat instantly or move it to a free river if I thought any of this madness was going to happen, either that or as the Jews say it's time for a good fire.............

 

I don't think you read what I wrote...

 

How much would the license fee have to go up to make you sell up your boat and move back to the land, or move it to Ireland, or a free river? Are you seriously saying that another £25 a week would do this? How much do you spend every year on the boat, and how much would you spend if you had to move back to land? How many wideboats are there on the canals who would see the biggest rises? How many do you think would be free to move anywhere like you could? (here's a clue -- not many of the ones who've become widebeam liveaboards recently because it's a cheap place to live and work from but have a job they have to get to)

 

There are always lots of apocalyptic "it'll kill off [xxx], I'm going to leave" sentiments when price rises are concerned, and it very rarely happens when push comes to shove, most people grumble and pay up. A few will leave, but the overall income to CART would go up.

Edited October 1, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Ooh, boat apartheid -- what can possibly go wrong? 😉

Nothing it will save a lot of hassle in the long term 

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

I don't think you read what I wrote...

 

How much would the license fee have to go up to make you sell up your boat and move back to the land, or move it to Ireland? Are you seriously saying that another £25 a week would do this? How much do you spend every year on the boat, and how much would you spend if you had to move back to land? How many wideboats are there on the canals who would see the biggest rises?

 

There are always lots of apocalyptic "it'll kill off [xxx], I'm going to leave" sentiments when price rises are concerned, and it very rarely happens when push comes to shove, most people grumble and pay up.

You are missing the point Ian I can afford it the vast majority can't so you will have to fund it. So the question is can you and a few others afford 50 million each?

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Just wait till Peter gets banned from the Aire & Calder for being in too small a boat

 

It was made for boats nearly the same size as mine! Give or take 300 foot.

Anyway why would I care? After all the Kennet and Avon would be my playground 🤣

Edited October 1, 2021 by peterboat

[dmr]

57 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I think @dmr counted the total number of days it was open when they were sulking about him overstaying in a small area.  I can't remember the number but it wasn't high!

 

It was an extra bad year with the floods and the first lockdown and the big culvert failure in Manchester, The Littleborough bridge issue was a bit odd, boats were unofficially getting thru. Just like the Anderton landslip the canals are always vulnerable to "third part failures".

The Rochdale will almost always run out of water in summer because its a high canal with a lot of locks and a very poor water supply. The only fixes are to buy another reservoir or absolutely massive back pumping and I doubt if anyone here would put either as top priority spending. Fixing a few leaky locks would improve things a bit but getting water to any canal summit has been a challenge for a couple of hundred years 😀

Likewise the K&A will be unnavigable every year due to high flows on the river sections, its all part of boating.

It would be good to have a few more boats on the Rochdale so that its not seen as so under-used but that will probably have to be CC'ers who don't mind if they get stuck for a few weeks.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It was made for boats nearly the same size as mine! Give or take 300 foot.

Anyway why would I care? After all the Kennet and Avon would be my playground 🤣

But when CRT becomes MtB will discounts for electric boats still be available?

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Goliath said:

But when CRT becomes MtB will discounts for electric boats still be available?

True 25% is a great incentive saving me some dosh it is

[Midnight]

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I think you may have misread my post ...  I'm suggesting it wasn't open much.

 

On the subject of beer however, I'm currently in Blackburn - which way are you escaping the L&L?

 

@DRP is hoping to get Ribble through Eshton Road to Gargrave tomorrow so it's openish until then AFAIK 

 

 

Ooops!! I'll buy the beers regardless.

We are at Middlewich heading over the Rochdale on Tuesday wish me luck.

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

It would be good to have a few more boats on the Rochdale so that its not seen as so under-used but that will probably have to be CC'ers who don't mind if they get stuck for a few weeks

 

All we need to do is rename Littleborough to Bathampton ...

 

There's already a Portsmouth nearby to attract the Navy lot!

[Jon57]

3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Maybe someone should consider doing something to draw attention to these at risk canals ...

 

It's the usual chicken and egg situation - not enough boats use the northern canals, so they become a lower funding priority and deteriorate, so even fewer boats use them.

 

A dedicated, pre-announced campaign to send a few hundred boats round the South Pennine ring might focus attention on the state of them which would seem better than closing them.

 

If only we had a national association who cared enough about the state of the inland waterways to arrange such a rally ... I'm sure there used to be such a group!

Yes absolutely. We need the equivalent of the BCN challenge applied to south Pennine ring. But not over 24 hrs 😜but over 24 days. Well we can dream. 

[Midnight]

4 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Yes absolutely. We need the equivalent of the BCN challenge applied to south Pennine ring. But not over 24 hrs 😜but over 24 days. Well we can dream. 

With bonus points if you manage it without a stoppage. Then again when was it last open for 24 days in a row?

[Jon57]

26 minutes ago, Midnight said:

With bonus points if you manage it without a stoppage. Then again when was it last open for 24 days in a row?

Like I said we can dream. Hope you get back ok.👍

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

27 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Yes absolutely. We need the equivalent of the BCN challenge applied to south Pennine ring. But not over 24 hrs 😜but over 24 days. Well we can dream. 

This is something me and dmr have had conversations about. 
At least do an explorer trip in similar lines to the BCNS 
I understand the Huddersfield Canal Society do an explorer. 

[matty40s]

36 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Yes absolutely. We need the equivalent of the BCN challenge applied to south Pennine ring. But not over 24 hrs 😜but over 24 days. Well we can dream. 

What ring, there isnt one for proper boats...😉

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, matty40s said:

What ring, there isnt one for proper boats...😉

 

Extra bonus points for boats over 60 feet long or over 6'10" wide ...

 

Triple score for the Rochdale Nine as it isn't on the ring itself.

[dmr]

A few years ago Warland Farm (Rochdale Summit) organised a sort of communal cruise up from Manchester to co-incide with the Littleborough Rush Bearing Festival. There was a lot of boater interest but sadly all but three boats dropped out at the last minute as it was predicted that the Rochdale was about to run out of water. CRT made a huge effort to get those boats up to the summit but they did indeed then get trapped on the Rochdale for a few weeks

Myself and Goliath have chatted (over a few beers) about trying to do something similar but rather than a single quick visit it should maybe be "come and spend a month (or longer) discovering the North". That way any fairly short stoppages could be handled..

[Midnight]

12 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Myself and Goliath have chatted (over a few beers) about trying to do something similar

I would be interested  in that - have event management experience. 

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Midnight said:

I would be interested  in that - have event management experience. 

 

We'll play, just not around BCN challenge weekend next year.

 

There's a strong argument for doing that around Easter - winter maintenance complete, canal full of water, start of the "boating season" for those who believe in such a thing, wolves off raising their young, sharks still hibernating ...

 

 

[dmr]

Sounds like we might have some enthusiasm to have a go at this. Will probably have to be 2023??? I'm busy rushing back to the Rochdale right now but will be in touch in a while. I will also talk to the people who organised the last event. I think CRT said 12 boats was the maximum that could go up the Rochdale together, and even that's a bit optimistic.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

I think CRT said 12 boats was the maximum that could go up the Rochdale together, and even that's a bit optimistic.

 

If ever there was a reason to send more at a time, that's it.

 

Which direction?  I'll lead (or indeed follow!) the second dozen up from the Rose of Lancaster or from Hebden on day two because I'm used to getting stuck.  Hopefully the water can recover overnight.

 

[Jon57]

30 minutes ago, dmr said:

Sounds like we might have some enthusiasm to have a go at this. Will probably have to be 2023??? I'm busy rushing back to the Rochdale right now but will be in touch in a while. I will also talk to the people who organised the last event. I think CRT said 12 boats was the maximum that could go up the Rochdale together, and even that's a bit optimistic.

Better make it sooner rather than later with the earlier comments about mothballing 👍

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Better make it sooner rather than later with the earlier comments about mothballing 👍

 

 

I'm not sure I want to be involved ..........................

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Mike Todd]

23 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

There is of course a 3rd option in this hypothetical price hike you're discussing as well as the pay or go away ones.

That is don't pay at all and continue cruising and hope to stay under the radar, or go as long as you can until caught and then flog it on.

Considering that even at roughly a £1000 per licence there are already a good number of evaders, how many do you think would take that option up rather than pay the £5000 suggested? And how much revenue then gets lost employing folk to chase them down and then start lengthy proceedings incurring even more cost whilst they jump through the legal hoops? Simply trying to price your undesired element out is not a solution, they've as much right to own and/or live on a boat as you have.

 

Perhaps maintenance costs are so high because they've flogged off most of the equipment, laid off most of the knowledgeable staff, and now have to lease it all back at a higher cost and with a longer timescale to get anything done? Selling assets to fund operating costs will kill any business in the long term.

I would be very (extremely?) surprised if CaRT do not have plenty of documentation to show that their course of action (leasing when needed) is a cost effective approach and, probably, saves a considerable amount.

 

Whether it has turned out that way is a separate matter but no doubt some of the boater reps have asked for the information . . . 

 

One of the possible shifts in attitude amongst large maintenance organisation may well come from the present fuel supply disruption (and other goods) is the review the 'just-in-time' strategy which many have adopted as a means of responding to excessive pressure to reduce 'prices'. In the short term it has no doubt been very effective but we are now seeing some thought given to 'just-in-case' but is does come with a severe warning about being a trade off with costs.

 

In the case of CaRT it does not have much flexibility with regard to 'price' (ie licence fees) so it may have to confront users (boaters and others) with the choice between maintaining a level of service that occasionally has longer disruption (jit) or with a much reduced level of service that has fewer disruptions (jic). 

 

For myself, I'd rather stick with the present approach but with perhaps a bit more attention to stocking a little more of the things that enable faster response to the more disruptive events.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

17 hours ago, Midnight said:

I would be interested  in that - have event management experience. 

 

16 hours ago, dmr said:

Sounds like we might have some enthusiasm to have a go at this. Will probably have to be 2023??? I'm busy rushing back to the Rochdale right now but will be in touch in a while. I will also talk to the people who organised the last event. I think CRT said 12 boats was the maximum that could go up the Rochdale together, and even that's a bit optimistic.

 

I’m here til the end of the month.

Dmr you’ll be back in a week or so?

and Midnight are you still gonna use the Rochdale to get back to the Leeds and Liverpool?

 

There must be a Temperance Hall nearby? We could gather and come up with a plan. 
 

[dmr]

6 minutes ago, Goliath said:

 

 

I’m here til the end of the month.

Dmr you’ll be back in a week or so?

and Midnight are you still gonna use the Rochdale to get back to the Leeds and Liverpool?

 

There must be a Temperance Hall nearby? We could gather and come up with a plan. 
 

 

We have a little delay, we really like to get Ian Mac to help with the Manchester 18 and he is not available till  Thursday 14 so will probably hang about in Bugsworth for a few days.