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TV Aerial


Dave .Morialta

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

I expect omni directional aerials have got a lot better then.  You wouldn't be splashing out £35 if it doesn't work.  Free returns.

 

Unless someone has found a way to break the laws of physics, no omnidirectional aerial (especially of the sizes used here) can give as good a signal as a reasonably-sized directional one (also as mentioned on this thread).

 

No amount of amplification or handwaving woo-woo about "new technology" can change this.

 

If an omni aerial works then you have enough signal strength, if it doesn't then there's a good chance that a directional one might still work because the aerial itself has more gain in the direction it's pointing.

 

Adding an amplifier can help if the cable is lossy, but otherwise you just get a bigger signal sitting on top of bigger noise because it amplifies both, and for TV (especially DTV) it's signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) that matters.

 

https://www.aerialsandtv.com/knowledge/aerials/aerials-for-caravans-and-boats

 

(which I hate to admit is Justin Smith, but at least he knows what he's talking about with aerials, unlike Covid...)

Edited by IanD
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When I got my boat it had one of these:

 Maxview B2344 Omnimax Pro Omni-directional Mobile Tv Aerial-White

 

A Maxview omni something or other. It is pretty rubbish, especially considering how much they cost. I replaced it with a compact log on a small magnetic mount pole and used in conjunction with a tv aerial alignment app it's much much better. 

 

Of course it does depend where you moor. I always moor in the middle of nowhere. However if I moored near towns where there is often repeater transmitters nearby, perhaps I'd have better luck with an omni aerial. 

Edited by booke23
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45 minutes ago, booke23 said:

When I got my boat it had one of these:

 Maxview B2344 Omnimax Pro Omni-directional Mobile Tv Aerial-White

 

A Maxview omni something or other. It is pretty rubbish, especially considering how much they cost. I replaced it with a compact log on a small magnetic mount pole and used in conjunction with a tv aerial alignment app it's much much better. 

 

Of course it does depend where you moor. I always moor in the middle of nowhere. However if I moored near towns where there is often repeater transmitters nearby, perhaps I'd have better luck with an omni aerial. 

 

Talking of repeater transmitters, some are vertically polarised so any directional aerial needs twisting though 90 degrees for optimum performance. My "fish bone" caravan log periodic made it very  easy.

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Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

Talking of repeater transmitters, some are vertically polarised so any directional aerial needs twisting though 90 degrees for optimum performance. My "fish bone" caravan log periodic made it very  easy.

 

Indeed.

 

And that is the single only advantage of an omni directional aerial in that you dont have to that. (They are still rubbish in most othere respects however).

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8 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

And that is the single only advantage of an omni directional aerial in that you dont have to that. (They are still rubbish in most othere respects however).

 

True.

 

According to my trusty TV transmitter phone app, most of these repeater transmitters are very low power (some only a couple of watts) and my app nearly always recommends I should tune into a much more powerful transmitter a bit further away, so in practice I hardly ever have to twist the aerial.   

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2 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

I expect omni directional aerials have got a lot better then.  You wouldn't be splashing out £35 if it doesn't work.  Free returns.

 

If the signal is strong enough it will work, otherwise it is just decoration.

 

Edited by Idle Days
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2 hours ago, booke23 said:

When I got my boat it had one of these:

 Maxview B2344 Omnimax Pro Omni-directional Mobile Tv Aerial-White

 

A Maxview omni something or other. It is pretty rubbish, especially considering how much they cost. I replaced it with a compact log on a small magnetic mount pole and used in conjunction with a tv aerial alignment app it's much much better. 

 

Of course it does depend where you moor. I always moor in the middle of nowhere. However if I moored near towns where there is often repeater transmitters nearby, perhaps I'd have better luck with an omni aerial. 

And yet we got a good signal from our Omnimax on about 90% of the network that we travelled, both in towns and in remote countryside including virtually the whole of the GU (except the Leicester line), W&B, T&M, BCN, Oxford, Coventry, Shroppie, & Llangollen. Obviously there were occasional dead spots on all, but the only major exceptions were the southern S&W and the Caldon

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8 hours ago, jpcdriver said:

I can also report satisfaction with the Moonraker DTV 1000. Very rarely fails to get a good selection of viewable channels and then probably in situations where any aerial would struggle (e.g. between tall buildings).

Same here. I use to use a basic aerial on a pole, had to align it and also store it somewhere. changed to the Moonraker and 9 times out of 10 I just put the pole up on the front deck unextended, its 6 foot long but extends to 18, go inside and watch TV. In a bad area I may have to elevate it or rotate it, but most times its just plug in and go.  I wont be changing back to a simple aerial.

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15 hours ago, pete.i said:

You wont miss much between Freeview and Freesat. It's all junk but at least it's free junk unlike Sky junk that you have pay mega bucks for, apart from the scamming BBC licence fee of course.

 

Errr.... how would you know it's all junk and scamming?

 

Unless you still watch it, perhaps?!

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

The signal must be strong everywhere then.

 

It may be strong everywhere you have tried your omni direction aerial but it certainly isnt strong everywhere.

 

As we move around the UK it is definitely variable. One of the weakest signals we get of all places is at home. Has been for the 26 years we have lived there. Hence we now have Freesat not Freeview at home. (Sky TV before that.)

 

( As an aside the signal did disappear all together last month after a fire at the Bilsdale transmitter but that of course was a temporary and highly unusual issue. )

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As an alternative, how about no TV aerial at all, but put your money into a 3G/4G connection?  That way there is no aerial alignment issues, plus you can use catch-up services so the amount of programmes available to you is much higher...... just a thought...  (plus you might not need a TV licence!)

Edited by robtheplod
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26 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

As an alternative, how about no TV aerial at all, but put your money into a 3G/4G connection?  That way there is no aerial alignment issues, plus you can use catch-up services so the amount of programmes available to you is much higher...... just a thought...  (plus you might not need a TV licence!)

Only downside is that you can't live stream ITV CH4 and CH5 from the tablet to the TV so have to use catch-up, which when the wife wants to watch a particular program can be tricky.

We run a roof mounted  DTV1000 if that doesn't pick up TV as it doesn't on most of the lower Nene we revert to streaming

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10 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Only downside is that you can't live stream ITV CH4 and CH5 from the tablet to the TV so have to use catch-up, which when the wife wants to watch a particular program can be tricky.

We run a roof mounted  DTV1000 if that doesn't pick up TV as it doesn't on most of the lower Nene we revert to streaming

You can't watch in real-time without a license, but you can watch using the catch-up services shortly afterwards -- often while the program is still live. But you might have a problem proving this if the TV licensing bods ever come calling, because you *could* be watching live TV even if you say you never do...

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25 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

As an alternative, how about no TV aerial at all, but put your money into a 3G/4G connection?  That way there is no aerial alignment issues, plus you can use catch-up services so the amount of programmes available to you is much higher...... just a thought...  (plus you might not need a TV licence!)

Just so - same as land line for phones: will they be redundant soon? When we moved a few months back we added a land line but by the time it was set up we were so used to using the mobile phone that we have never used the land line at all and have not given out the number. It is no longer mandatory for an internet connection.

 

As for TV, going back to 2008 we were using terrestrial and an omni aerial and had lots of problems, not least the need to retune the set up every time we moved (which is pretty much every day) We fairly soon went over to sat dish - after an abortive attempt with one model we went with Martyn, well known around the system not least for his incredible customer service attitude. Initially we had a small inline signal wotsit but that tested our patience not a little as it needed voice communication between the dish-setter-up and someone who could relay back from the tv set.

 

As a 'birthday' present I treated myself to a much better sat finder which is self powered and with a small screen to show picture when aligned. This usually means that, together with better sun observation to estimate the direction, it takes fewer seconds to lock on than for the system to boot up. And no shouting down to the cabin is needed - first align the dish and then connect the lead.

 

This has done us well for the intervening years and when we are moored with no line-of-sight then we resorted to listening to music or just reading (occasionally we talk to each other!) The main reasons for no signal are not being able to moor away from tall trees (OK in winter and shoulder seasons but much more of an issue when the leaves are fully out) or in an urban context with tall buildings (just very occasionally can look for a reflected signal).

 

However, in the mean time, mobile coverage has improved as well as the price of data packages. Last year we realised that streaming radio gave a much better result than our 'car' radio, which is rubbish. Once we had mastered the bluetooth connections it is much the better option. We also started to use streaming for Netflix etc.

 

Then early this season we were introduced to the possibility of streaming the live terrestrial channels and have used that when the sat dish cannot get a signal. It is probably only a matter of time before streaming is our default option, rather than the other way around, keeping the dish for those times when we are in a mobile not-spot on both providers we have contracts with. Both offer reasonable quasi-unlimited data, which we signed up for as we make extensive use of internet for a variety of reasons.

 

It won't be immediate but I suspect it is not far over the horizon that terrestrial tv will be phased out - within the decade for sure. More a political issue than commercial or technical. The  main technical issue is physics and the finite capacity of radio channels.

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5 minutes ago, IanD said:

You can't watch in real-time without a license, but you can watch using the catch-up services shortly afterwards -- often while the program is still live. But you might have a problem proving this if the TV licensing bods ever come calling, because you *could* be watching live TV even if you say you never do...

Absolutely Ian. The best bit is you're not tied to TV schedules... the catchup services record it all and you just choose what to watch. Theres lots of box sets available for historical programmes which are often the best ones. No worries re TV licencing if you just watch catchup (excluding iplayer). Been watching this way for 2 years now, since we got the boat and it works well.

 

Most modern TV's have catchup ability already, but if not If your TV has a HDMI input and a USB socket (or you can use a USB adapter if not) then you can turn it into a TV capable for this just by getting one of these:

Roku Express | HD Streaming Media Player: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

it just needs Wifi to work, which many boaters will already have?

 

Edited by robtheplod
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2 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Absolutely Ian. The best bit is you're not tied to TV schedules... the catchup services record it all and you just choose what to watch. Theres lots of box sets available for historical programmes which are often the best ones. No worries re TV licencing if you just watch catchup (excluding iplayer). Been watching this way for 2 years now, since we got the boat and it works well.

 

Should TV licensing come to call, how do you *prove* that you only watch catch-up?

 

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/faqs/FAQ33

Watching online

You need to be covered by a TV Licence to watch or 'stream' programmes live on an online TV service - such as ITV Hub, All 4, YouTube, Amazon Prime Video, Now TV and Sky Go.

You don't need a TV Licence if you only ever watch on demand or catch up programmes on services other than BBC iPlayer - and never watch TV programmes live on any channel or TV service.

This applies to any device you use, including a TV.

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4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Should TV licensing come to call, how do you *prove* that you only watch catch-up?

 

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/faqs/FAQ33

Watching online

You need to be covered by a TV Licence to watch or 'stream' programmes live on an online TV service - such as ITV Hub, All 4, YouTube, Amazon Prime Video, Now TV and Sky Go.

You don't need a TV Licence if you only ever watch on demand or catch up programmes on services other than BBC iPlayer - and never watch TV programmes live on any channel or TV service.

This applies to any device you use, including a TV.

You don't have to prove anything, the onus is on them to prove you do. It really isn't an issue and I suspect most people watching via the internet don't need a licence but many buy one anyway as they are unsure of the rules...

Edited by robtheplod
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1 minute ago, robtheplod said:

You don't have to prove anything, the onus is on them to prove you do. It really isn't an issue.

 

Are you sure?

 

In the days before online TV, if you had a TV connected to an aerial you had to buy a license or get prosecuted, whether you watched it or not, because it was *capable* of showing TV programmes. Is this any different with online streaming?

 

Asking because I genuinely want to know, not because I'm saying you're wrong. Is there any case law about this?

 

[of course the government will *say* you have to buy a license, I want to know if they're ever successfully prosecuted anyone -- or tried and failed]

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4 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

You don't have to prove anything, the onus is on them to prove you do. It really isn't an issue and I suspect most people don't need a licence but buy one anyway....

 

I'm reasonably confident if you are using a tablet or mobile data connection to watch 'live' TV, your ISP will have full records of what data you downloaded and when you downloaded it, and would have no qualms whatsoever about dobbing you in should they ever be asked to.

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1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

Are you sure?

 

In the days before online TV, if you had a TV connected to an aerial you had to buy a license or get prosecuted, whether you watched it or not, because it was *capable* of showing TV programmes. Is this any different with online streaming?

 

Asking because I genuinely want to know, not because I'm saying you're wrong. Is there any case law about this?

 

[of course the government will *say* you have to buy a license, I want to know if they're ever successfully prosecuted anyone -- or tried and failed]

I'm am absolutely 100% sure. You can have 100 TV's at home connected with aerials. Its no longer the ability, its what they are ACTUALLY used for. If you use catchup streaming services excluding iplayer only then you do not need a licence, despite the very vague wording on TVL website. I can give you links to some good sites/YouTube videos, including a Barrister if you'd like to gen up further?

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3 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

I'm am absolutely 100% sure. You can have 100 TV's at home connected with aerials. Its no longer the ability, its what they are ACTUALLY used for. If you use catchup streaming services excluding iplayer only then you do not need a licence, despite the very vague wording on TVL website. I can give you links to some good sites/YouTube videos, including a Barrister if you'd like to gen up further?

https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/53668/do-the-uk-tv-licensing-rules-disregard-innocent-until-proven-guilty

 

  •  
    1) If your device "can" receive live broadcast you need a license. Amazon et. al. "can" show live broadcasts, so technically, you need a license. 2) It is called "common" law for a reason. 3) If you have a normal TV you need a license. Nobody has to prove that that you watched it. To avoid prosecution you need to prove not that you didn't, but that you couldn't, have watched it. As you said, Magistrates are not daft. If they simply dismissed everybody who said "wasn't me guv", they wouldn't be needed.
    – Paul Smith
    Aug 17 '20 at 21:19
  •  
    It is easier to argue that a streaming service is not a "normal" TV and therefore that the "normal" rules might not apply. That would get you some leeway, but you would still be relying on a certain amount of good luck.If you were watching on a normal TV via a streaming service then I wouldn't give much for your odds. Watching on a laptop and being generally cooperative, you would probably have a reasonable chance of getting away with it.
    – Paul Smith
    Aug 17 '20 at 21:27
  •  
    @PaulSmith I can't remember ever having seen live events on Amazon or Netflix.
    – gnasher729
    Jul 12 at 20:07
  •  
    Amazon does live sports on their Amazon Prime account. You will find all the details you need here: amazon.co.uk
    – Paul Smith
    Jul 15 at 22:19
Edited by IanD
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