Boat Prices and Current Market

[PD1964]

13 hours ago, RB-T said:

When a new guy like the author of this topic, who knows little about boats, feels boats are overpriced, that carries weight, and the market should listen. If he can't be duped, then it's going to be hard for vendors to dupe people that know the game.

Just like first time house buyers then? Most think house prices are too high but it hasn’t stopped them from rising and the first time buyers inability to buy has made no difference to the housing market. So I doubt first time buyers will have an effect lowering the boat prices rather the opposite. I’ve noticed more new boats and boaters In my area and most have had the boat less then a year and it was their first time out. They are usually middle class couples average age about 55 who know little about the canals and have released savings/pensions or other investments to buy a boat as they have been inspired to buy through watching YouTube during lockdown and realise there’s more to life then working full time. These are the people that are causing price rises and there’s lots out there who are willing to pay the price. 

 

[Hudds Lad]

1 hour ago, Norm55 said:

Brokers....were do i start.....  On one of the boats yesterday, could not switch on any of domestic electrics.   Out of boat, into office and told broker,  who, hands in his pockets said " yeh I think the batteries are flat on that one "  You knew I was coming, why was it not made ready for viewing.  If you want your 6% earn it !, 

Because they don’t have to. For every savvy buyer who comes and kicks the fenders then walks away shaking their head at the price, there’s another starry-eyed noob high off Sunday paper features and YouTube vids with a wedge of cash and a burning desire to live the rose-tinted life. Boats are mostly selling themselves, why waste the effort?

[robtheplod]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

Just like first time house buyers then? Most think house prices are too high but it hasn’t stopped them from rising and the first time buyers inability to buy has made no difference to the housing market. So I doubt first time buyers will have an effect lowering the boat prices rather the opposite. I’ve noticed more new boats and boaters In my area and most have had the boat less then a year and it was their first time out. They are usually middle class couples average age about 55 who know little about the canals and have released savings/pensions or other investments to buy a boat as they have been inspired to buy through watching YouTube during lockdown and realise there’s more to life then working full time. These are the people that are causing price rises and there’s lots out there who are willing to pay the price. 

 

oh dear... sorry!

[RB-T]

With what you are getting for your money, condition, and build quality, against price, if the inexperienced can see the discrepancy, then something is 'glaringly' wrong.

[PD1964]

44 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

there’s another starry-eyed noob high off Sunday paper features and YouTube vids with a wedge of cash and a burning desire to live the rose-tinted life. 

 

31 minutes ago, RB-T said:

With what you are getting for your money, condition, and build quality, against price, if the inexperienced can see the discrepancy, then something is 'glaringly' wrong.

Yes as @Hudds Lad says above there’s a lot of dreamers out there after the COVID lockdown who have been watching other dreamers through their Rose-Tinted glasses on YouTube and they think they would love a piece of the idyllic life on the canals. A case of the Blind leading the Blind. Looking at the Forum new Threads there’s a lot on here who have had their boat less then a year and are clueless to what they have bought into, with regards to the Canals and maintaining their boat who fall into the Blind category. Some will realise their mistake and either stay in the Marina never to move or put their boat up for sale adding on a few thousand to what they bought it for and so prices rise and the circle continues.

Edited September 29, 2021 by PD1964

[CanalRetentive]

2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Just like first time house buyers then? Most think house prices are too high but it hasn’t stopped them from rising and the first time buyers inability to buy has made no difference to the housing market. So I doubt first time buyers will have an effect lowering the boat prices rather the opposite. I’ve noticed more new boats and boaters In my area and most have had the boat less then a year and it was their first time out. They are usually middle class couples average age about 55 who know little about the canals and have released savings/pensions or other investments to buy a boat as they have been inspired to buy through watching YouTube during lockdown and realise there’s more to life then working full time. These are the people that are causing price rises and there’s lots out there who are willing to pay the price. 

 

 

I think the housing market is different purely because it's used as an investment by big money, big chunks of steel half submerged in water aren't used for investment for good reason.

 

57 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 

Yes as @Hudds Lad says above there’s a lot of dreamers out there after the COVID lockdown who have been watching other dreamers through their Rose-Tinted glasses on YouTube and they think they would love a piece of the idyllic life on the canals. A case of the Blind leading the Blind. Looking at the Forum new Threads there’s a lot on here who have had their boat less then a year and are clueless to what they have bought into, with regards to the Canals and maintaining their boat who fall into the Blind category. Some will realise their mistake and either stay in the Marina never to move or put their boat up for sale adding on a few thousand to what they bought it for and so prices rise and the circle continues.

 

They can add a few thousand on top but who is going to pay it? The others who also bought on a whim during lockdown and will be selling soon too? I know I'm a newb but I can't see why prices will hold as inflated as they are, there is no reason for them to do so. I'm not paying it, others aren't paying it, they can either hold out forever praying for a late comer to the summer lockdown madness or lower the price.

[PD1964]

55 minutes ago, CanalRetentive said:

 

I think the housing market is different purely because it's used as an investment by big money, big chunks of steel half submerged in water aren't used for investment for good reason.

 

 

They can add a few thousand on top but who is going to pay it? The others who also bought on a whim during lockdown and will be selling soon too? I know I'm a newb but I can't see why prices will hold as inflated as they are, there is no reason for them to do so. I'm not paying it, others aren't paying it, they can either hold out forever praying for a late comer to the summer lockdown madness or lower the price.

Others obviously are paying it. The people I see paying it are the 50+ year olds who have released funds as their money is doing nothing in their savings accounts, they want to to go and enjoy it while they can. The ones who aren’t paying it are the 20 year olds looking for a cheap place to live.

  The boat builder that I’m friends with is booked solid with new builds in the price range of £180-£300K, who’s buying them? Professional people 50+ year old, not your 24 year old who thinks he works in IT every now and then when he get’s scraps of work, who ends up buying a 1980’s Springer after borrowing money from Mum & Dad.

  Don’t be fooled there’s money out there and people have it to spend on Narrowboats. The bubble may burst but at the minute I don’t see prices dropping too soon.

  You started the Thread and I doubt you have a boat yet due to you not wanting to pay the price Brokers are asking. You may be waiting a while if you don’t want to pay current market trends.

  

Edited September 29, 2021 by PD1964

[matty40s]

32 minutes ago, CanalRetentive said:

 

I think the housing market is different purely because it's used as an investment by big money, big chunks of steel half submerged in water aren't used for investment for good reason.

 

 

They can add a few thousand on top but who is going to pay it? The others who also bought on a whim during lockdown and will be selling soon too? I know I'm a newb but I can't see why prices will hold as inflated as they are, there is no reason for them to do so. I'm not paying it, others aren't paying it, they can either hold out forever praying for a late comer to the summer lockdown madness or lower the price.

You are wrong in the present market.

I have seen and heard of lots of people miss out on boat(s) as they arent quick enough to go and view, put in a derisory low offer, or think waiting for the price to drop is a good idea.

After 4 or 5 disappointments, quite a few end up chucking a deposit on a boat as soon as it comes to market, even when it doesnt tick all their boxes, as they are desperate not to miss out again.

Whether this will be the same in the depths of winter, or when the recession hits, who knows, but that is the present state of the market.

[Guest]

Rugby Boats recently posted videos of boats that were already under offer before the videos even went up on YouTube.

 

I presume they still posted them in case the sales for any reason fell through.

[Hudds Lad]

1 minute ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Rugby Boats recently posted videos of boats that were already under offer before the videos even went up on YouTube.

 

I presume they still posted them in case the sales for any reason fell through.

and to show they still have a turnover of stock.

[David Mack]

Covid has forced people to reassess their priorities. In property terms it has sent buyers scurrying to nice-to-live places outside the cities where you can work from home but still occasionally commute to the office. The blocking of foreign holidays has pushed people to holiday at home, some on boats, some of whom in turn have decided they like the lifestyle, and concluded that a boat is cheaper than a second (bricks and mortar) home in the inflated housing market. These are the better off - typically 50+, kids left home, mortgage paid off, perhaps received an inheritance from their own parents (covid may have helped here). Coverage of the lifestyle on TV, in newspapers and magazines and on social media has added to the attraction. And at the other end of the scale youngsters who can't afford bricks and mortar are buying the only home of their own they can afford. Also a few divorced and separated who find their share of the former joint assets won't pay for a house. It all puts pressure on the boat market, which responds the way markets always do.

Edited September 29, 2021 by David Mack

[agg221]

We have just bought our first boat, this week in fact - it's the third I have owned and I still own one of the others, but paying a nominal pound for a rotting wooden hulk isn't quite the same thing.

 

I suspect we don't fit the typical profile. We are under 50 with children living at home for the next decade at least. We also have a mortgage and no inheritance. However, where we also appear to not fit the profile is in having a longstanding involvement with canals. We have rebuilt two wooden boat hulls and have both served a fair amount of time with the Waterway Recovery Group. Priorities have been different for a while, but we can now get back in to it and having a boat that actually floats is a big advantage.

 

Unusually in the current market it sat for quite a while. However, I think there were a number of reasons for that. It's short (38'), old (1855) and narrow (6'6" overall) with a round bottom so it is not going to appeal to a fair proportion of people. It has 8' of the space taken up with an engine room to fit the Kelvin J2. This list is going to put a lot of people off. It is not quite completed on the re-fit either and unless you are prepared to get stuck in, the additional cost of getting from where it is now to finished is going to be more than it will add to the value.

 

There was also some pretty poor advertising. The photographs reflected the previous owner's pride in what he had done, rather than focusing on the key points. Even a day spent finishing a few things off would have made it look a lot better; a week and it would probably have sold nearly instantly for a bit more than it went for. He also initially listed it at a very optimistic price which he then dropped considerably, but by that point it was buried well down the listings on Facebook and Apolloduck so people who might have bought it at the price it went for would have been put off and not noticed the price drop.

 

I don't think we have a bargain, but we do have something unique and breaking down costs we probably haven't paid much more than it would cost to get to where it is now - ie there isn't a lot of profit on it. There probably isn't much more that can be added in value either. It's like houses on certain streets where however many extensions or jacuzzies you add, the postcode sets the ceiling on price.

 

But we like its quirkiness, its history and its overall looks, so since the intention is to enjoy it. We will have had our money's worth if it doesn't drop more than say £5k in 5yrs, and I would be surprised if it did. The point is, in the £10-30k bracket, there are still some boats around which are not what the current stereotypical buyer is looking for so the price has not gone up ridiculously. FWIW the same is true with classic cars - massive growth over the past decade but my wife's rubber-bumpered Midget is still a viable proposition to own and run, and just as much fun.

 

Alec

Edited September 29, 2021 by agg221

[0000]

11 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Rugby Boats recently posted videos of boats that were already under offer before the videos even went up on YouTube.

 

I presume they still posted them in case the sales for any reason fell through.

I feel rather let down by Rugby boats, I'm on their mailing list and when receiving information on a boat for sale, I always make sure I check it out on their website asp and every time the boat is already "under offer"! I did send an email to Rugby boats to ask why and pointed out there was not much point of the mailing list if the boats listed are already sold but never got a response. Its almost cruel i.e. we are telling you about this fantastic boat for sale but we already have a buyer so you can't have it!! I can only assume that there is some kind of VIP buyer list which gets the information before the rest of us. I sometime think I should forget about buying from Ruby boats but I must admit, I do like to see commodore Bumble checking out all the cupboards.

 

[matty40s]

31 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Rugby Boats recently posted videos of boats that were already under offer before the videos even went up on YouTube.

 

I presume they still posted them in case the sales for any reason fell through.

Rugby Boats has always done this, it's just more obvious at present as it is happening so often. There is a lot of time and effort goes into the brochures, layout plans, video and photographs along with uploading it all to the website, appolo duck, youtube etc.

This is still all done to show the customer how much work goes into a successful sale to justify the broker fee. It also helps as you say if a sale falls through(incredibly rarely), and also helps if a boat comes back to market after a period of time(a lot of boats go back for sale where they were sold from) as the layouts and brochures will not need much amendment- if any.

 

28 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

and to show they still have a turnover of stock.

Also important, browsing but not yet buying customers get a good idea of the market levels and quality for their budget. Sellers can gauge how well a broker is doing in shifting boats, and how realistically they are pricing boats by doing this.

A broker who states on their weekly listing "phew, boats selling like hot cakes before we have time to list them" with nothing being listed might as well not bother.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, BrandyMark said:

I feel rather let down by Rugby boats, I'm on their mailing list and when receiving information on a boat for sale, I always make sure I check it out on their website asp and every time the boat is already "under offer"! I did send an email to Rugby boats to ask why and pointed out there was not much point of the mailing list if the boats listed are already sold but never got a response. Its almost cruel i.e. we are telling you about this fantastic boat for sale but we already have a buyer so you can't have it!! I can only assume that there is some kind of VIP buyer list which gets the information before the rest of us. I sometime think I should forget about buying from Ruby boats but I must admit, I do like to see commodore Bumble checking out all the cupboards.

 

 

We used them to buy and sell from but it was in less frantic times and found them excellent but it was also under Dominic's stewardship back then.

 

I cant really comment on how things run now.

 

Id give em a bell and check they have your correct email address. 

 

And you have checked your spam folder? (Sorry if that is teaching granny to suck eggs?)

Edited September 29, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[matty40s]

8 minutes ago, BrandyMark said:

I feel rather let down by Rugby boats, I'm on their mailing list and when receiving information on a boat for sale, I always make sure I check it out on their website asp and every time the boat is already "under offer"! I did send an email to Rugby boats to ask why and pointed out there was not much point of the mailing list if the boats listed are already sold but never got a response. Its almost cruel i.e. we are telling you about this fantastic boat for sale but we already have a buyer so you can't have it!! I can only assume that there is some kind of VIP buyer list which gets the information before the rest of us. I sometime think I should forget about buying from Ruby boats but I must admit, I do like to see commodore Bumble checking out all the cupboards.

 

To be honest Mark, in the last 6 months, some boats have arrived on the wharf delivered by owners or boat movers...... buying customers there to view another boat have had a look and put a deposit down from what I have seen. They have an Aqualine waiting list all of it's own apparently.!!!

No excuse for no reply to email though.

5 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

 

Id give em a bell and check they have your correct email address. 

 

And you have checked your spam folder? (Sorry if that is teaching granny to suck eggs?)

As far as this goes, there was a system failure then upgrade about 6 months ago, I havnt received any emails from the mailing list since.

[Athy]

24 minutes ago, agg221 said:

We have just bought our first boat, this week in fact

....and your description of her is intriguing. Is she an icebreaker? Are you willing and able to show a photo of her on here please?

24 minutes ago, BrandyMark said:

 their website asp 

 

Well, there you are. Never trust a snake, especially if it's running a web site.

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

....and your description of her is intriguing. Is she an icebreaker? Are you willing and able to show a photo of her on here please?

 Yes sounds like an ice-breaker with the hull shape. Says it has sat on the market for a while, so obviously unique and different. What I’ve found with unique and different boats is they don’t sell well and are not practical on the canals, as don’t fit the needs of 99% of the people looking for a boat to relax, enjoy or live on the waterways, so a very small buyers market.

So a bargain maybe for an enthusiast with time and money to spend.

  Will be interesting to see photos and the finished boat.

  

Edited September 29, 2021 by PD1964

[matty40s]

49 minutes ago, Athy said:

 

Well, there you are. Never trust a snake, especially if it's running a web site.

You wrote it??

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

You wrote it??

Oh, for goodness' snake.

Point of information: the web site is run by DHutch. Are you calling him a snake?

[agg221]

Yes it is an ice boat - Oates (formerly Esquimaux). Built for the BCN circa 1855 with a counter conversion in the 1970s I think by Andrew Milward.

 

It would be a poor choice to live on I think as it gives less accommodation space, but for relaxing/leisure it's fine. It depends what you enjoy I think. We enjoy boating. That means travelling a fair number of hours a day, at the speed that conditions sensibly allow, working locks as efficiently as possible. I am aware that this seems not to be what many people do these days - Youtube videos of people talking about a hard day when they have travelled for 4hrs and gone through 5 locks; complaining about people in a hurry by which they mean wanting to do more than 2mph on a deep, open stretch etc.. Everyone enjoys their boat in their own way and this one should suit us.

 

Haven't taken any of our own photos yet but here is one from the advert.

 

Alec

 

 

 

 

[CanalRetentive]

4 hours ago, matty40s said:

You are wrong in the present market.

I have seen and heard of lots of people miss out on boat(s) as they arent quick enough to go and view, put in a derisory low offer, or think waiting for the price to drop is a good idea.

After 4 or 5 disappointments, quite a few end up chucking a deposit on a boat as soon as it comes to market, even when it doesnt tick all their boxes, as they are desperate not to miss out again.

Whether this will be the same in the depths of winter, or when the recession hits, who knows, but that is the present state of the market.

 

I guess it comes down to confidence in the market, nobody has an issue overpaying for houses because they have confidence that not only will they hold their value but also increase.

 

I can see the previous prices of boats, I can see why the marker has changed, and I don't have confidence to pay over the odds because I feel the conditions affecting it are temporary. 

 

Regardless it's out of my hands, and a few people standing firm won't change anything when others have deeper pockets and less to worry about.

 

The search continues..

[PD1964]

4 minutes ago, agg221 said:

 

Not as I imagined, looking back when the Hull was in dry dock and the hook was discussed,

  It’s a nice looking boat which hasn’t been spoiled by the addition of a hideous cabin with large house style double glazed windows, many people who know boats would be more then happy with her so well done on your purchase and good look with your future plans for her.

  

  

[system 4-50]

On 28/09/2021 at 17:27, Norm55 said:

Just been to view 2 boats today.   No end of photos and gushing descriptions on AD can replace actually standing aboard the boat. Both today's were vastly overpriced. When broker recieved my honest feedback, there was a shrug as if " yes, sorry thats what owner thinks its worth "  they had been on brokerage for a month or so.   Am thinking some owners feel they can wack up the price in return for free mooring whilst on brokers books.

They may be overpriced but this is necessary due to the way the (or some) brokerage systems work.  My boat is with a brokerage (Venetian) now.  I have to set an asking price.  Lets assume I set a ridiculously low price, say £999, which many people would pay, some of which would be prepared to pay more.  The broker will accept the first offer at the asking price.  He has no mechanism to assess the demand.  He will not wait a week and assess the response and up the price to whittle down the would-be buyers.  He does however have a mechanism to handle offers below the asking price!  

This means that you must set an asking price at least as high as you might get if you were extremely lucky, if you are to have a chance of getting that lucky offer.  This is particularly difficult if you personally have no idea of what your boat is worth, and as I have a quirky boat, I have no idea of what mine is worth.  The broker is willing to give a valuation but they are much more interested in making a sale than getting the best price (imho).

It also means that a buyer needs to get in quick to stand a chance as he might be one of dozens all prepared to pay £888 but no more.  So one strategy for the buyer is to come in quickly with an offer at the asking price and then find grounds for forcing the price down.  I accepted an offer on my boat at the full asking price within 12 hours (approx) of it going on sale but it now seems likely that the would-be buyer does not have the financial resources to pay anywhere near this price.  My boat is flagged on the website as under offer but this is likely to revert to for sale shortly.  In the mean time other potential buyers are shut out.

Edited September 30, 2021 by system 4-50

[Athy]

15 hours ago, agg221 said:

Yes it is an ice boat - Oates (formerly Esquimaux). Built for the BCN circa 1855 with a counter conversion in the 1970s I think by Andrew Milward.

 

It would be a poor choice to live on I think as it gives less accommodation space, but for relaxing/leisure it's fine. It depends what you enjoy I think. We enjoy boating. That means travelling a fair number of hours a day, at the speed that conditions sensibly allow, working locks as efficiently as possible. I am aware that this seems not to be what many people do these days - Youtube videos of people talking about a hard day when they have travelled for 4hrs and gone through 5 locks; complaining about people in a hurry by which they mean wanting to do more than 2mph on a deep, open stretch etc.. Everyone enjoys their boat in their own way and this one should suit us.

 

Haven't taken any of our own photos yet but here is one from the advert.

 

Alec

 

 

 

 

How refreshing to see a truly distinctive boat amongst all the 57-footers with Beta 43s. You'll never have trouble finding it in the car park.