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Boat Prices and Current Market


CanalRetentive

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Hi,

I keep hearing now is a bad time to buy a boat etc etc, but just crazy has the market gone recently? I'm quite clueless and looking for some advice

 

I really need a live aboard but also can't justify throwing money to the wind by buying at a really bad time? 

 

Been to view a few already and felt they were overpriced for the condition, how much would you have expected to pay for a full length live aboard ready to go in good condition a few years ago? 

 

Any advice as to the state of the market at current? Anything to look for that is more likely to hold it's value? Will be getting a new boat built eventually so don't want to take a massive hit while getting something in the meanwhile. Thanks in advance.

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1 hour ago, CanalRetentive said:

Hi,

I keep hearing now is a bad time to buy a boat etc etc, but just crazy has the market gone recently? I'm quite clueless and looking for some advice

 

I really need a live aboard but also can't justify throwing money to the wind by buying at a really bad time? 

 

Been to view a few already and felt they were overpriced for the condition, how much would you have expected to pay for a full length live aboard ready to go in good condition a few years ago? 

 

Any advice as to the state of the market at current? Anything to look for that is more likely to hold it's value? Will be getting a new boat built eventually so don't want to take a massive hit while getting something in the meanwhile. Thanks in advance.

It's a market = folks will pay what they consider is a reasonable  price. Unless you buy a boat that needs attention (and then paint it white (!!) and sell it on when ready) - then you'll have to pay the market rate. That's what markets are about... There's so much demand from folks who need somewhere to live that bargins are as rare as hens teeth.

 

If you're sensible  = practical, you're most likely to sell your used boat at a small profit than at a loss - yhus you'll be no worse off than if you hadn't bought at all - as well as having accommodation for the period that you owned it. That's what others are doing (perhaps being greedy the while..)

Edited by OldGoat
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It is a bad time, most boats are overpriced for what you get for your money now. People are trying it on, especially the price of cruisers, crazy. But if you're waiting for that bad time to end, I fear it won't unfortunately.

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4 minutes ago, RB-T said:

It is a bad time, most boats are overpriced

 

Surely that is not true or there would be 100s of boats up for sale, instead, they are selling over the phone and unseen'.

 

They are selling at 'market price', it may not be the same level as we were used to 2 or 3 or 4 years ago, but, it is todays market price and I expect it to stay at the same high level for some years to come.

 

In 40+ years, and the buying and selling of 18 boats, I have only ever lost money on one boat (a Sea going cruiser that had serious, expensive, problems). In the main they have not only recouped the initial purchase price but all of the maintenance and improvement costs incurred as well. I have rarely kept a boat more than 2 years.

 

Take a carrier bag of cash with you when viewing the boat, it is a strong motivator to the seller when he see's tens of thousands in 'pound notes'. Do the deal and take it away.

 

Sell your boat privately and you can offer the buyer a 'good deal' as you will be saving the 5%-10% (whatever) commission that the brokers take, and you can pass some / most / all of that saving on and be no worse off.

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1 hour ago, CanalRetentive said:

Been to view a few already and felt they were overpriced for the condition, how much would you have expected to pay for a full length live aboard ready to go in good condition a few years ago? 

 

In 2015 I bought a 45ft NB equipped and suitabke for a liveaboard, I paid £32,000.

I sold it in 2016  for £36,000.

 

The buyer then decided to 'go back to land' and never having done any maintenance, blacking etc etc sold it in 2019 for £40,000

 

Increasing prices are not a new thing.

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It's a matter of supply and demand.  Much the same with used cars at the moment - most will find they could sell a car they bought new / nearly new 2 years ago for more than they paid.

 

It's unlikely to last forever but it's anyone's guess when it'll calm down.  If the motivation for the surge in buying is 'life's too short, I want a lifestyle change / Covid / can't have a foreign holiday so I'm buying a boat / holding on to my boat' - according to the brokers, they're the main reasons - those things should, fingers crossed, become less of factor in the medium term and help ease demand.

 

Vloggers glamourising the liveaboard life I don't spose have helped but I've seen some of the more prominent ones jack it in in the last 6 months or so.  But for every one which does there's another that replaces it.

 

Personally, I'm hoping for a crap winter.  Walking around a brokers in the freezing cold or when it's peeing down, to view an unheated boat, will take the edge off for many.  That's my hope, anyway.

 

Edited by northern
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12 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

As in GRP River Cruisers?

...or perhaps the kind with four forward-facing 6" guns, which could come in handy if someone were moored on a water point or opposite a winding hole.

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Thanks for the replies, I too was hoping that maybe the summer holiday buyers would sell up and flood the market once it was over and started getting cold, but probably wishful thinking on my behalf. Been planning on moving aboard for years and when I can finally make it a reality everything goes crazy as just is my luck 😑

 

Guess I'll just have to go for it and hope I don't lose £££££ in value when the market corrects, wish me luck, could do with some for a change 😂

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On 26/09/2021 at 17:43, CanalRetentive said:

Thanks for the replies, I too was hoping that maybe the summer holiday buyers would sell up and flood the market once it was over and started getting cold, but probably wishful thinking on my behalf.

It usually takes a year or two after people get fed up with a boat, which explains the many 'project boats' advertised on ebay and the Duck.

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Just been to view 2 boats today.   No end of photos and gushing descriptions on AD can replace actually standing aboard the boat. Both today's were vastly overpriced. When broker recieved my honest feedback, there was a shrug as if " yes, sorry thats what owner thinks its worth "  they had been on brokerage for a month or so.   Am thinking some owners feel they can wack up the price in return for free mooring whilst on brokers books.

 

 

Another thought, would you really loose much on new boat?   If it was off the peg rather than bespoke,  then am beginning to think maybe you wouldn't 

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7 minutes ago, Norm55 said:

Just been to view 2 boats today.   No end of photos and gushing descriptions on AD can replace actually standing aboard the boat. Both today's were vastly overpriced. When broker recieved my honest feedback, there was a shrug as if " yes, sorry thats what owner thinks its worth "  they had been on brokerage for a month or so.   Am thinking some owners feel they can wack up the price in return for free mooring whilst on brokers books.

 

 

Another thought, would you really loose much on new boat?   If it was off the peg rather than bespoke,  then am beginning to think maybe you wouldn't 

20% vat as soon as you untie the lines.

 

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32 minutes ago, matty40s said:

20% vat as soon as you untie the lines.

 

 

Why do you lose the VAT, I've never understood this statement, particular as there are instances of people buying and then selling the boat for a higher amount.

For years, people have been on waiting lists / booking build slots for new boats, cars etc and then selling it as soon as it is built, the new owner has no waiting and gets his instant gratificatiions for which he is prepared to pay a premium.

 

The VAT is part of the purchase price, just as is the Buisness Corporation tax, light and heat, labour costs and profits are. The purchase price is the price you pay.

Do you worry about the VAT content when you buy a new car, new shoes, or windows ?

 

The seller loses the VAT because he has to pay it to HMRCE.

 

Please explain it to me and show your workings.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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18 minutes ago, MtB said:

I think you'd lose about two years' cruising time by ordering and buying a new boat. 

Best delivery date I have is July '22,   this is for new, off the peg boat circa 105K.  Incl VAT .   Take off 20% VAT and we have around 84K nett.  

Today I have seen 2 boats, 20 years and 8 years old respectively at 75K.    

Where is the logic? 

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11 minutes ago, Norm55 said:

Best delivery date I have is July '22,   this is for new, off the peg boat circa 105K.  Incl VAT .   Take off 20% VAT and we have around 84K nett.  

Today I have seen 2 boats, 20 years and 8 years old respectively at 75K.    

Where is the logic? 

 

Hard to comment without knowing who the three builders are.

A 20 year old well looked-after boat by a respected builder could easily be worth as much as an off the peg mass-produced jobbie with lots of corners cut. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Norm55 said:

Best delivery date I have is July '22,   this is for new, off the peg boat circa 105K.  Incl VAT .   Take off 20% VAT and we have around 84K nett.  

Today I have seen 2 boats, 20 years and 8 years old respectively at 75K.    

Where is the logic? 

 

Where is the logic ?

 

Why are you deducting the VAT on the new build ? will you not be paying VAT ?

 

You can buy the new build for £105K (VAT paid) or you can buy the 2nd hand boat at £75k (VAT paid)

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When a new guy like the author of this topic, who knows little about boats, feels boats are overpriced, that carries weight, and the market should listen. If he can't be duped, then it's going to be hard for vendors to dupe people that know the game.

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1 minute ago, RB-T said:

When a new guy like the author of this topic, who knows little about boats, feels boats are overpriced, that carries weight, and the market should listen. If he can't be duped, then it's going to be hard for vendors to dupe people that know the game.

 

I disagree - if someone knows little or nothing about a subject, how can they know if a boat is at 'market price' or 'overpriced' ?

Knowledge and experience of a market is the only way to tell.

If a boat is considered to be overpriced by someone then they will not buy it, but someone who does buy it considers it to be 'market price'

 

I think diesel is 'overpriced at ~£1.40 per litre as I used to pay 28p per litre, and some years before that 5* petrol at 4 gallons (18 litres) for £1.00

Maybe I should stop buying it so the vendors know I cannot be duped !

 

In the last 3 years some of my vintage Gun collection have increased in value / price by over 3x using actual achieved auction sales of similar models.

In the last 5 years ,my house has more than doubled in value, and since it was built in 2006 has more than trebled. in value.

 

One 'person of thrifty origins' perception does not a market price make.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, RB-T said:

When a new guy like the author of this topic, who knows little about boats, feels boats are overpriced, that carries weight, and the market should listen. If he can't be duped, then it's going to be hard for vendors to dupe people that know the game.

I think you make a good point. Sometimes an 'outsider' can see things more clearly.  Boats (Not all boats, mainly canal boats) have had a year of rising prices but , deep breath, winter is coming on, the economy ain't great, stock markets are weak, brexit is still unfolding, energy is expensive, spare cash is harder to come by, covid might increase with winter, I'm sure there's more but that'll do for now. Much of the demand is not people with a passion for boats but people looking for homes and canal boats are becoming expensive homes.

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8 minutes ago, Bee said:

Boats (Not all boats, mainly canal boats) have had a year of rising prices

 

Certainly coastal boats are showing the same trend as canal boats.

Prices are escalating and there are not enough for sale.

 

One of the main differences is that whilst a narrowboat is a narrowboat is a narrowboat (maybe different paint and older engine) there is a big difference between Cat A, Cat B and Cat C boats, not that many people are looking to take on the oceans with a CatA boat. but offshore (CatB Sailing) is increasing in popularity whilst Coastal (CatC Motor and sailing) are very much in demand.

 

There was a nice 36 foot sailing boat moored in front of us and he was putting it up for sale and had arranged for a broker to come and take pictures and details, I just happened to be on the poop-deck having Tiffin when the broker arrived.

He wrote down the details and gear list, said I won't bother with pictures, I have a waiting list for this type of vessel, & I won't even get the details onto the website, it'll be sold within a week. And, it was.

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11 hours ago, Norm55 said:

Just been to view 2 boats today.   No end of photos and gushing descriptions on AD can replace actually standing aboard the boat. Both today's were vastly overpriced. When broker recieved my honest feedback, there was a shrug as if " yes, sorry thats what owner thinks its worth "  they had been on brokerage for a month or so.   Am thinking some owners feel they can wack up the price in return for free mooring whilst on brokers books.

 

 

Another thought, would you really loose much on new boat?   If it was off the peg rather than bespoke,  then am beginning to think maybe you wouldn't 

 

Same, went to view another one yesterday, it had the paperwork from a previous survey a few years ago, valuation £65,000, now it's a few years older and they're asking shy of £80,000. Loved the boat and I'll put in a realistic offer and probably be laughed off but not being drawn into silly games by chancers.

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2 hours ago, CanalRetentive said:

 

Same, went to view another one yesterday, it had the paperwork from a previous survey a few years ago, valuation £65,000, now it's a few years older and they're asking shy of £80,000. Loved the boat and I'll put in a realistic offer and probably be laughed off but not being drawn into silly games by chancers.

 

Yesterday I managed to arrange a viewing of a boat within half an hour of it being advertised (not on Apollo Duck but on the marina's website I happened to view).  It was reasonably priced in today's market.  The boat's had the same owner since new and looked immaculately kept.  I still managed to negotiate £5,000 off the list price.

 

What I'm saying is, it all depends on the seller and their position.  In my case they wanted the money to fund something else and were keen to strike a deal.  You might find the same.

 

Best of luck with it.

 

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13 hours ago, RB-T said:

When a new guy like the author of this topic, who knows little about boats, feels boats are overpriced, that carries weight, and the market should listen. If he can't be duped, then it's going to be hard for vendors to dupe people that know the game.

Ok, i am a nubie yes, 12 months ago decide i would like a canal boat and what a journey it has been.

 

A little about me, i have bought, renovated and sold houses all my life. I can value a house as well as an estate agent. Have also bought property abroad, tital deeds etc all checked through correct channels.   I guess am valuing boats differently. I dont know a Liverpool boat from a Stoke boat but i do recognise quality of woodwork and finishing. Neither of these boats yesterday had this. 

 

My other passion is classic cars, again i have a good feel for their value, history, provenance etc.  20 years ago I gained a pilots licence, every plane had a tech log, history and paperwork supporting its stated history.

 

Canal boats....jeez....I read the New to Boating forum and hear of people putting their life savings into a 60ft floating chunk of steel, often bought for cash on side of canal, no paperwork, history or at best a survey full of caviets..  Should there not be more regulation?

 

Brokers....were do i start.....  On one of the boats yesterday, could not switch on any of domestic electrics.   Out of boat, into office and told broker,  who, hands in his pockets said " yeh I think the batteries are flat on that one "  You knew I was coming, why was it not made ready for viewing.  If you want your 6% earn it !,      Also yesterday I had an induction from guys operating canal boat for disabled. I am giving my time to them.  Their passion and enthusiasm completly different. 

 

Rant over.   

 

 

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