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Central heating set up issues


Katie

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7 minutes ago, Katie said:

Just concerned how big a job this will be and if I’ll be able to realistically afford it! 

 

I don't think it should be a very big job.

 

The radiators and stove don't need moving, but you might have to do without the radiator labelled rad 1.

 

All you should need conceptually is a pipe running from the stove to the front radiator positioned above the boiler not below it.  The front two radiators will need connecting into this new pipe.  In the correct place it can even be a long towel rail ...

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Well, you have a stove, a boiler in it and 3 rads plus a lot of pipe. That's the makings of a system. I have never installed a system where radiators go to the bow and the stern but I,m sure its not difficult but basically you need a loop of pipe that leaves the boiler at the top, rises all the way to the front rad and then falls all the way to the bottom of the boiler and very important, there must be an expansion tank taken from the highest point of the circuit. That is not a very hard thing to install. No electricity needed, no pump, no wires. It will work. Others will have more experience of this but I would think a plumber would not need to charge many arms or legs to do the work. Good luck.

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1 minute ago, Bee said:

Well, you have a stove, a boiler in it and 3 rads plus a lot of pipe. That's the makings of a system. I have never installed a system where radiators go to the bow and the stern but I,m sure its not difficult but basically you need a loop of pipe that leaves the boiler at the top, rises all the way to the front rad and then falls all the way to the bottom of the boiler and very important, there must be an expansion tank taken from the highest point of the circuit. That is not a very hard thing to install. No electricity needed, no pump, no wires. It will work. Others will have more experience of this but I would think a plumber would not need to charge many arms or legs to do the work. Good luck.

Ok I have a heating engineer/plumber friend I may talk to this about. His initial idea was just to replace the pump though but think I will explain the problems with that on a boat and see if he is confident helping me amend the current set up to simple

gravity fed one. 
 

if not… can anyone recommend a boaty plumber for the job near Milton Keynes? 

4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

This depends wholly on the type of radiators. If they are modern bottom entry rads they are not suitable for natural convection systems as they have no top tappings. 

Pretty sure they are conventional rads as heat from the top first and bleed valves are in the top? 

7 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I don't think it should be a very big job.

 

The radiators and stove don't need moving, but you might have to do without the radiator labelled rad 1.

 

All you should need conceptually is a pipe running from the stove to the front radiator positioned above the boiler not below it.  The front two radiators will need connecting into this new pipe.  In the correct place it can even be a long towel rail ...

Ok this sounds like a much better and easy set up! 
 

always thought ‘Rad 1’ was a bit pointless anyway as in the same room as the stove. But perhaps left in from a previous fit out

 

just need to find someone to do it now. As mentioned, I do have a qualified heating engineer:plumber friend but he’s never worked on a boat. 

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5 minutes ago, Katie said:

Ok I have a heating engineer/plumber friend I may talk to this about. His initial idea was just to replace the pump though but think I will explain the problems with that on a boat and see if he is confident helping me amend the current set up to simple

gravity fed one. 
 

if not… can anyone recommend a boaty plumber for the job near Milton Keynes? 

Pretty sure they are conventional rads as heat from the top first and bleed valves are in the top? 

Ok this sounds like a much better and easy set up! 
 

always thought ‘Rad 1’ was a bit pointless anyway as in the same room as the stove. But perhaps left in from a previous fit out

 

just need to find someone to do it now. As mentioned, I do have a qualified heating engineer:plumber friend but he’s never worked on a boat. 

If this is your pump this may help with how the pump is set up  

 

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5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If this is your pump this may help with how the pump is set up  

 

Oh thanks! It’s not the exact same but very similar. However the button appears to be broken on mine anyway which is why my friend suggested just replacing the pump for £80 

 

but now I’m realising prob not the best option overall. 

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17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

This depends wholly on the type of radiators. If they are modern bottom entry rads they are not suitable for natural convection systems as they have no top tappings. 

 

I hesitate to contradict Mike, but my boat had bottom entry rads on a gravity system and it worked well. 28mm loop high to front of the boat then down to the bottom run back to the stove and 15mm take of and return into the bottom pipe.  Admitted this was with a gas boiler (Ellis) but I can't see why it would not work with a stove. In fact, it worked to a degree at home with a 15mm single pipe system but that stove had  a thermostat plus a vertical to the first floor level. At one time many homes were piped this way.

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10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I hesitate to contradict Mike, but my boat had bottom entry rads on a gravity system and it worked well. 28mm loop high to front of the boat then down to the bottom run back to the stove and 15mm take of and return into the bottom pipe.  Admitted this was with a gas boiler (Ellis) but I can't see why it would not work with a stove. In fact, it worked to a degree at home with a 15mm single pipe system but that stove had  a thermostat plus a vertical to the first floor level. At one time many homes were piped this way.

Single pipe system, not the best for speedy operation but it works.  I have designed many boat systems, Having radiators fore and aft of the boiler is not a problem.

It reduces the peak flow through the pipework to an extent, in fact it will likely be possible to use 22mm main pipes with 15mm to the isolated radiator with good plumbing practice.

 

 

Those reds are suitable for a gravity system so the alterations would be only pipework.

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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1 minute ago, Katie said:

Yep all same type 

 

I think you're in luck Katie.

 

If budget is tight, you can probably even use the existing feed pipe and move it, but it might need cleaning and painting.

 

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Having radiators fore and aft of the boiler is not a problem.

It reduces the peak flow through the pipework to an extent, in fact it will likely be possible to use 22mm main pipes with 15mm to the isolated radiator with good plumbing practice.

 

That's interesting - I didn't know that would work.  Do you use a reducing tee above the boiler and accept reduced flow or is something clever needed?

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I think you're in luck Katie.

 

If budget is tight, you can probably even use the existing feed pipe and move it, but it might need cleaning and painting.

 

 

That's interesting - I didn't know that would work.  Do you use a reducing tee above the boiler and accept reduced flow or is something clever needed?

You calculate the require flowrates and run the solo rad on 15 mm if it is within the required flow rate and the other circuit is in 22mm and to the calorifier if that is included. Flow pipework as high under the gunwale as practical, with air bleed/a on high point/s, similar returns at floor level.

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23 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I think you're in luck Katie.

 

If budget is tight, you can probably even use the existing feed pipe and move it, but it might need cleaning and painting.

 

 

That's interesting - I didn't know that would work.  Do you use a reducing tee above the boiler and accept reduced flow or is something clever needed?

That’s promising! I’m happy cleaning and painting not so sure about plumbing but hopefully can rope in my friend to do that. If not, are you close to MK and fancy earning bit of cash??? Haha 

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22 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

 

I disapprove strongly of solid fuel heating systems on a boat that rely on a pump for circulation. 

Consider what is likely to happen when in the depth of winter with a big roaring fire going, the pump stops working.

 

I agree and have a thermocycling C/H system from my stove. However, I'd estimate based on what I've read on here over the last 15 years, that the split of people with pumped vs. thermocycling systems on boats is roughly 50/50 and although I've heard of a few disasters I haven't really heard of that many given the numbers of pumps involved. 

 

I think the main thing is to install the pump between two gate valves and have a spare pump handy, so that if it does die it's very easy to replace without draining down the whole system in the middle of winter.

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46 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

 

 

I think the main thing is to install the pump between two gate valves and have a spare pump handy, so that if it does die it's very easy to replace without draining down the whole system in the middle of winter.

Whilst the steam and red hot water cascades around you changing a pump because there is now no possibility of any circulation 'cos you closed the valves!    😂

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We've had pumped systems for 10 years on both our last boat and this one. Although we've had pump failures, we've never had the dire consequences often warned about on here. Pumps don't generally suddenly fail, we found ours gradually got noisier and noisier before failing, to the extent you'd want to change it long before complete failure. I admit a 230v one adds additional failure points on a boat, that's why we went for 12v.

 

Our last boat had a single gravity fed radiator near the stove so we could run without pump if necessary, but never did. This stove is installed without (just connected to existing central heating circuit for ease). We also didn't want very hot exposed pipework within toddler reach which all gravity systems seem to have!

 

As to what to do if pump fails, why not just shut all fire vents down tight? This causes our morso squirrel to die down to virtually nothing in a matter of minutes, certainly not enough time to boil the back boiler and cause the problems predicted in this thread. We've changed the pump a couple times without letting the fire go out, but as emergency, during the few minutes to let fire die down, we could run the eberspacher which also circulates through the same system. Never needed to though. 

 

We've had very very expensive 12v pumps fail in less than a year, but the most reliable we've found is a used 12v auxiliary pump from a jag. Only £20, and still going strong after 3 winters.

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9 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

We also didn't want very hot exposed pipework within toddler reach which all gravity systems seem to have!

 

It doesn't have to be exposed.  Ours wasn't until BobBiscuits started trying to pull all the insulation off to use as swords ...

 

Maybe more boxing in is needed!

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24 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

Although we've had pump failures, we've never had the dire consequences often warned about on here. Pumps don't generally suddenly fail, we found ours gradually got noisier and noisier before failing, to the extent you'd want to change it long before complete failure.

 

You also have grown up batteries, so are unlikely to run out of pump electricity.  That's not always the case with pumped systems.

 

I agree that shutting the stove right down shortens the panic interval, but again that's not going to always be the case for less experienced boaters.

 

I can't really think of any reason why a well designed thermosyphon isn't the correct answer on a boat other than the extra few quid for bigger tube when installing it.

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The hot pipes run all along under the gunnells, the rads are generally easier to protect with rad covers, or just by being in a different room (our bedroom!) Full length pipes however just act like a grab rail for toddlers!

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I can't really think of any reason why a well designed thermosyphon isn't the correct answer on a boat other than the extra few quid for bigger tube when installing it

And trying to fit into existing fitout and using existing central heating system😁

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4 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

The concern Tom and Bex expressed was the toddler touching hot pipes, but not the hot radiators! 

 

Yes, I know.  The only place our toddler ever touched hot pipes was on the loo, after he'd pulled pipe insulation off the hot flow pipe.  He keeps away from the stove itself and doesn't lean on the radiators, but the 28mm tube at gunwale height fascinates him for some reason, but only within arm's length of the toilet.  He's not interested in the other bits, just that bit!

5 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

And trying to fit into existing fitout and using existing central heating system😁

 

I did specify well designed rather than bodged to fit ;)

 

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Back to the OP's question.

 

Being a mains pump that often drive the impeller by magnetic induction, I wonder if it has seized up, our one at home use to over the summer and needed a thump to get it spinning. Even when stuck, it used to hum at mains frequency. If this has happened, maybe the hum makes the OP think it's running.

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