B.M.C 1.8 INJECTOR PUMP REPLACEMENT

[Puff Along]

Hi Looking for advice .I have had a pump purchased for me from the person I bought a recon engine from . Its a very long story and don't want to name names etc.

The pump purchased is a 62h260  CAV# 3247f181 and advert states for B.M.C 1.8 and set for 30hp CAV# 3247f181 Lucas Fuel setting A27E 1200-0-490 I have been told that the engine is a 1.8 but a 55hp ex Leyland Police Van Block....does the 30hp relate to Engine HP? will I get enough fuel it is a Sea Going Boat ....Can anyone shed some light please

[Tony Brooks]

I think the engine sounds as if it might be a 2.2/2.5 rather than a 1.8, or even a totally different make. Can we have a photo and what big numbers are cast on the side of the block (if any).  The BMC 1.x engines normally used a hydraulic DPA pump, whereas the 2.x used the mechanical version. I have seen one 1.5 with a mechanical pump, though.

 

The 30 bhp will relate to the maximum amount of fuel injected at full power, but a pump shop should be able to alter it. Then there is the question of how well the gearbox reduction ratio (if any) and the prop size matches the theoretical engine power. Many displacement boats never reach the full power point because they are propped for  maximum torque, not power.

 

The engine will certainly run properly with that pump, it is just the maximum power that is in question - providing the drive and mounting are compatible.

[Puff Along]

Hi Tony It is definitely a 1.8 a lot smaller than the 2.5 that we took out.The gear box is a Borg Warner 1 to 1 Direct drive. This is what i was told by engine reconditioner The engine was originally a Police Van engine Normally 50hp but as it was for Police Leyland Sherpa Vans they where made to a 55hp specification.The marine fitter who is fitting the engine alerted me to the fact that it said on the Diesel Pump advertising on John Charnley,s web site Set at 30hp.It is transit to me as we speak.Can you advise if it should go f to be set to 50/55hp.Trying to download a image of the new engine but the site says image is to big and I cant seem to get the \Cropping function to work.I'm Not Having a Good Day!!!

[Puff Along]

The new engine 

[BEngo]

Diesel engines have various ratings depending on what they are to be used for.   All done by adjusting the max pump output and the max speed on the governor.

 

So 55hp at lots of revs for the cops, who won't use that power every day, and may be able to overtake white van men using the extra power.  Least reliable but ....  50 hp at less revs for white van man.  Enables the Sherpa drivers to pretend they can keep up with a Transit.  Still not especially reliable if thrashed regularly . 

30 hp for marine rating.  Will do this all day, every day.  It needs to, qas being engineless at sea can be an inconvenience.  A de E has recently been there!

 

Industrial and inland versions tended to end up at about 40 BHP at about 4000 rpm. You can get your new pump adjusted for more power, but I would fit it and try it first.  An extra 

20 hp or so may not make much difference to your speed, depending on hull form, but it will shove up the fuel bill.

I see you are replacing a 2.5 - what was that rated at? What sort of hull is it?  Displacement round bilge, deep V, Planing etc.?

 

N

[Puff Along]

It is definitely a 1.8 a lot smaller than the 2.5 that we took out.The gear box is a Borg Warner 1 to 1 Direct drive. This is what i was told by engine reconditioner The engine was originally a Police Van engine Normally 50hp but as it was for Police Leyland Sherpa Vans they where made to a 55hp specification.The marine fitter who is fitting the engine alerted me to the fact that it said on the Diesel Pump advertising on John Charnley,s web site Set at 30hp.It is transit to me as we speak.

[Puff Along]

Hi Adam......I see what you are saying re Mr Plod needing a brief burst of speed occasionally,The Marine engine runs at a constant,speed/revs for 2/4 hrs at a time.The Hull is a semi displacement hull it did do approx 10knots when tide /wind/load was favourable.8.5 cruise but wanting a bit more with new engine ,The other engine was old even though she still runs great but smokey on start up. Some Duver 23's circa 2.6/3.2 tons in the water have been retro fitted with 100/120/150 hp engines and some achieve 25 knots.Not looking for that but 10knot cruise will be nice. I can live with the fuel as long as I can get to the more distant fishing mark 12/15 miles off shore .

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, Puff Along said:

Hi Adam......I see what you are saying re Mr Plod needing a brief burst of speed occasionally,The Marine engine runs at a constant,speed/revs for 2/4 hrs at a time.The Hull is a semi displacement hull it did do approx 10knots when tide /wind/load was favourable.8.5 cruise but wanting a bit more with new engine ,The other engine was old even though she still runs great but smokey on start up. Some Duver 23's circa 2.6/3.2 tons in the water have been retro fitted with 100/120/150 hp engines and some achieve 25 knots.Not looking for that but 10knot cruise will be nice. I can live with the fuel as long as I can get to the more distant fishing mark 12/15 miles off shore .

 

 

So did my 54ft 14 ton canal boat on the Trent but that was only about 5 or 6 knots through the water. If you are saying its 23 ft long I don't see how you can get 10 knots at displacement speed. Typically I would expect about 6 knots maximum from the usual formula and that was assuming a 23ft  waterline length, I except your w/l is shorter so the maximum hull speed would be less. I doubt a 1.8 could push it up on the plane and trying to do so would only waste fuel. Happy to be told I am wrong about that. The 1.5 was about 30hp in marine form so I would expect a 1.8 to deliver more than that, but probably less than about 40hp but that all depends upon the pump setting and the prop size and gearbox reduction. If you want to go faster, but I suspect it is not possible with that engine, you will need to get the pump recalibrated and risk over stressing the  shaft, bearings, rods and pistons.

 

 

[Puff Along]

Hi Its a Semi Displacement. I don't expect it to get up on the plane but it did do 10.5 knts on Chart Plotter .This was with my Family on board but with just me it was 8.5knts That was with a very manky prop.It has been replaced as have shaft an all bearing etc.So it had a fair bit of cavitation when only 1 person onboard .Hoping it will be better ,with that?  The 55hp is just what the seller told me .stating it was a ex Police Engine  .

[Tony Brooks]

Ah - the old "that is what the seller told me" thing. A phrase never to be trusted unless they can verify it. I'd lay odds it has never been on a dynamometer to measure the power, but a good selling point if its true.

[Puff Along]

Oh Yee of Little Faith,But I hear what you are saying!😄

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, BEngo said:

Diesel engines have various ratings depending on what they are to be used for.   All done by adjusting the max pump output and the max speed on the governor.

 

So 55hp at lots of revs for the cops, who won't use that power every day, and may be able to overtake white van men using the extra power.  Least reliable but ....  50 hp at less revs for white van man.  Enables the Sherpa drivers to pretend they can keep up with a Transit.  Still not especially reliable if thrashed regularly . 

30 hp for marine rating.  Will do this all day, every day.  It needs to, qas being engineless at sea can be an inconvenience.  A de E has recently been there!

 

Industrial and inland versions tended to end up at about 40 BHP at about 4000 rpm. You can get your new pump adjusted for more power, but I would fit it and try it first.  An extra 

20 hp or so may not make much difference to your speed, depending on hull form, but it will shove up the fuel bill.

I see you are replacing a 2.5 - what was that rated at? What sort of hull is it?  Displacement round bilge, deep V, Planing etc.?

 

N

 

Indeed, diesel engines used for standby generators come in two ratings, 

 

Continuous. Can run indefinitely at 100% of rated load with one hour in twelve at 110% load.

 

Sprint (or fuel stop). Can run at 125% of rated load but total annual hours must not exceed 250 hours.

[Tracy D'arth]

A Sherpa van with more than 40 BHP must be a lethal machine, they would turn over at 10MPH!

[Tony Brooks]

 

 

I have just copied this from the Thorneycroft manual. The 1.8 is the 108 below. The missing last word is a BS test standard.

 

What the block came out of would not have made any difference unless it had been over-bored (unlikely on a 1.8) and the stroke had been altered, and that again is unlikely.

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[Puff Along]

I just  got this from Wikipedia .2nd Paragraph

 

 

1.8 litre engines[edit]

The engine was enlarged again to 1.8 L (1,798 cc) in 1962. Bore was 80.2 mm (3.16 in) and stroke was still 89 mm (3.5 in), power varied by application with typically 94 bhp (70 kW) at 5,500 rpm in twin carburettor format and 85 bhp (63 kW) in single carburettor format as used in the Morris Marina.^[4] The engine at first had a three-bearing crankshaft with a five-bearing version appearing in 1964.

There was also a diesel version of this capacity, used in the Leyland Sherpa van with a power output of 56 bhp (42 kW) at 4,250 rpm, and built under license in Turkey for many years. It is still widely used on narrowboats on the canals of the UK.^{[citation needed]}

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, Puff Along said:

I just  got this from Wikipedia .2nd Paragraph

 

 

1.8 litre engines[edit]

The engine was enlarged again to 1.8 L (1,798 cc) in 1962. Bore was 80.2 mm (3.16 in) and stroke was still 89 mm (3.5 in), power varied by application with typically 94 bhp (70 kW) at 5,500 rpm in twin carburettor format and 85 bhp (63 kW) in single carburettor format as used in the Morris Marina.^[4] The engine at first had a three-bearing crankshaft with a five-bearing version appearing in 1964.

There was also a diesel version of this capacity, used in the Leyland Sherpa van with a power output of 56 bhp (42 kW) at 4,250 rpm, and built under license in Turkey for many years. It is still widely used on narrowboats on the canals of the UK.^{[citation needed]}

I see where you got that from but in my opinion after half a life of experience, its claptrap rubbish. I have never seen a 1.8D that would run to 4250 rpm but if if it did then 56hp may just seem possible on a good day for a few minutes with a following wind.  But highly unlikely.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I see where you got that from but in my opinion after half a life of experience, its claptrap rubbish. I have never seen a 1.8D that would run to 4250 rpm but if if it did then 56hp may just seem possible on a good day for a few minutes with a following wind.  But highly unlikely.

 

I have not seen the data for a 1.8  but the maximum speed on the 1.5 was 4400 rpm - rather the chap who wrote that than me. Anyway, HP comes from torque and RPM so taking a more sensible long term maximum RPM will give a lower or much lower HP.

[Puff Along]

Re Puffs 1.8 the time has come 12/15hrs use  after reconditioning to re torque the Head and Tappets is there anything else to check/re tighten ? Any reading material of tolerances gladly received.

Once that's sorted repitch the prop to gain 2/3/4/5 knots who know? it seems to be a total Suck It an See Area I know there are many ideas of what should happen re speed Hull x Length x Wieght etc etc etc but know one really can tell to you have done it then someone will say Oh You Should Have THIS!!!!