Exess play in rudder steering on jjc boat

[Deansm]

Hi guys and gals ...First of all hello we are new here and to narrow boating.

We have just bought a early 80s jjc doug moore 37ft with a bmc1500d engine ...this we have researched this week ...okay so we got most things sorted and fixed so far ,im doing bach of sciences engineering which helps .

But here is the issue the swans neck turns about a foot before it grabs the rudder to move and the same in the opposite direction leaving a so not great steering narrow boat I have not been able to find many examples of steering schematics on these things or many problem shooting directions for this problem itself ....could anyone advise please so I can carry on making my boat well the second mrs better 

[BEngo]

Probably similar to the liverpool boats or Springers, where the rudder stock goes through a tube in the rudder blade and the two bits are bolted together.

 

Unfortunately it is an out of the water job.  You may be able to have a ferkle down the weed hatch to confirm the arrangements.

N

[Tam & Di]

Rudders are normally just a bit of solid round bar with a flat plate (the rudder plate) welded onto it, and the ramshead (you are referring to it as the swans neck) fitted in some manner at the top where the tube appears. This will often be a squared section of the round bar that the ramshead locates on, held firm by a nut of some kind. Even if this is not exactly what you can see, play must almost certainly be between the ramshead and top of the round section visible at deck level. It would be extremely rare for the rudder blade itself to be attached other than by weld, and that would not do what you are experiencing.

 

Tam

 

p.s. I see I am corrected in my assumption by BEngo, and the rudder blade attached other than by weld is not as rare as I thought.  This would be a better explanation if play is not visible at the top.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Tam & Di

[Bee]

As Bengo says. There will probably be one or two bolts passing right through the whole assembly. Over time the holes can go oval and the bolts wear away. If you have got that much play then I fear there is not much holding it together.....

[Neil2]

I believe I know that boat and the rudder assembly needed replacing years ago, I'm amazed it's still working.  

 

If it's the boat I am thinking of it's been fully overplated so if you haven't had it out of the water I would get it docked so you can have a good look at the condition of the hull, and you can sort the rudder out at the same time.

[Tony Brooks]

I have known a narrowboat with mini shaft coupling flanges on the rudder stock just above the rudder blade. The bolts in those can work loose or fall out.

[Tracy D'arth]

Take the weed hatch out and feel the rudder shaft where it goes up the tube above the rudder blade. As Tony said there may be 2 flanges bolted together  and the bolts loose  or there may be a socket with a square hole up the middle into which the lower rudder shaft is a taper fit. The taper may be loose.

 

If the lower shaft is turning with the tiller without play then the rudder blade may be bolted into the lower shaft which is split vertically.

 

I can't remember what arrangement Doug Moore used, its been a while!  Is there another owner with a Doug Moore boat on the forum who can advise?

[Richard10002]

9 hours ago, Deansm said:

Hi guys and gals ...First of all hello we are new here and to narrow boating.

We have just bought a early 80s jjc doug moore 37ft with a bmc1500d engine ...this we have researched this week ...okay so we got most things sorted and fixed so far ,im doing bach of sciences engineering which helps .

But here is the issue the swans neck turns about a foot before it grabs the rudder to move and the same in the opposite direction leaving a so not great steering narrow boat I have not been able to find many examples of steering schematics on these things or many problem shooting directions for this problem itself ....could anyone advise please so I can carry on making my boat well the second mrs better 

 

For clarity, did you have an out of the water survey carried out before you bought, or did the seller have a survey from a couple of years ago or so. If so, what did the surveyor say about the play in the steering system?

 

I'm guessing you didn't have a survey, in which case it would be a good idea to have the boat lifted so that you can see and fix the rudder issue, and anything else you might find.... you could black it and fit anodes if they are needed at the same time. It might also be worth getting a survey while out..... I still refer to my survey from a decade ago for information. It is also interesting to see that all of the things that the surveyor suggested were no big deal, but should be monitored, have all needed some kind of attention, or replacement. Next time I'm out of the water I'll be having a survey in order to see where the boat is and what might need looking at either immediately, or in the foreseeable.

 

As has been said, the play might be in the bearing thing at the bottom of the swans neck, just above the deck.... which is easy to get at, but sometimes difficult to take apart and maintain.

[Neil2]

5 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

For clarity, did you have an out of the water survey carried out before you bought, or did the seller have a survey from a couple of years ago or so. If so, what did the surveyor say about the play in the steering system?

 

I'm guessing you didn't have a survey, in which case it would be a good idea to have the boat lifted so that you can see and fix the rudder issue, and anything else you might find.... you could black it and fit anodes if they are needed at the same time. It might also be worth getting a survey while out..... I still refer to my survey from a decade ago for information. It is also interesting to see that all of the things that the surveyor suggested were no big deal, but should be monitored, have all needed some kind of attention, or replacement. Next time I'm out of the water I'll be having a survey in order to see where the boat is and what might need looking at either immediately, or in the foreseeable.

 

As has been said, the play might be in the bearing thing at the bottom of the swans neck, just above the deck.... which is easy to get at, but sometimes difficult to take apart and maintain.

 

As I said above, I'm 99% certain this is a boat I came across some years ago, it had been surveyed and the surveyor recommended that boat be overplated and the rudder replaced, among many other things.  I'm sure the overplating was done but it sounds like the rudder issue wasn't addressed.

 

(If it's the boat I'm thinking of, it's raw water cooled and has quite a lot of ballast in the engine bay, the bedroom is midships and there's a stove up front on the port side.)

 

The boat was almost certainly built by Doug Moore although it was one of his early efforts whilst he was still trading as JJ Crooke.  So establishing just how the rudder is assembled is going to be difficult without docking the boat.

 

 

[Deansm]

16 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

As I said above, I'm 99% certain this is a boat I came across some years ago, it had been surveyed and the surveyor recommended that boat be overplated and the rudder replaced, among many other things.  I'm sure the overplating was done but it sounds like the rudder issue wasn't addressed.

 

(If it's the boat I'm thinking of, it's raw water cooled and has quite a lot of ballast in the engine bay, the bedroom is midships and there's a stove up front on the port side.)

 

The boat was almost certainly built by Doug Moore although it was one of his early efforts whilst he was still trading as JJ Crooke.  So establishing just how the rudder is assembled is going to be difficult without docking the boat.

 

 

Hi   nope this one is front cabin lounge with mid area toilet and shower area and kitchen on the stern near the stern deck doors,there is a ballast issue but im assuming that's how the weight profile was designed for natural buoyancy and as 40 years past stuff got taken off changing the weight profile so I know the floor needs to come up for a rebalance of balast ....

Nope didn't get a survey its was a on the spot decision..stupid I know but hey ..to late now let's bring her back to former glory 

[Deansm]

11 minutes ago, Deansm said:

Hi   nope this one is front cabin lounge with mid area toilet and shower area and kitchen on the stern near the stern deck doors,there is a ballast issue but im assuming that's how the weight profile was designed for natural buoyancy and as 40 years past stuff got taken off changing the weight profile so I know the floor needs to come up for a rebalance of balast ....

Nope didn't get a survey its was a on the spot decision..stupid I know but hey ..to late now let's bring her back to former glory 

Oh yh and its booked in to be pulled closest time we could get near us is 6 mths from now ...we had planned on getting sonic survey of Hull done then and a reserve for replacing if needed .

It feels like when I had a moutin bike as a kid and the peddle miss shaped from the square bearing rod assembly on the peddle assemby and used to make my peddle jump a little ...I suppose what I'm saying is if its two squares which lock on a tapered rod feels like either the handle or the receiver square are now diamond shape and giving play ..does that make sense and if so could I add weld and resquare it ? By grinding it to shape?

Edited September 21, 2021 by Deansm
Found out how to edit added information yy

[Neil2]

2 hours ago, Deansm said:

Hi   nope this one is front cabin lounge with mid area toilet and shower area and kitchen on the stern near the stern deck doors,there is a ballast issue but im assuming that's how the weight profile was designed for natural buoyancy and as 40 years past stuff got taken off changing the weight profile so I know the floor needs to come up for a rebalance of balast ....

Nope didn't get a survey its was a on the spot decision..stupid I know but hey ..to late now let's bring her back to former glory 

 

That is the boat I'm thinking of.  It's a raw water cooled BMC 1.5 right?  I remember some years ago this boat came up for sale and had to be fully overplated, done at Collingwood IIRC.  The rudder was loose then so how on earth the previous owners have managed I don't know - unless they never moved the boat.  I've no reason to believe the hull will be suspect but it would be wise to have it out of the water and check it.

[Tracy D'arth]

3 hours ago, Deansm said:

Oh yh and its booked in to be pulled closest time we could get near us is 6 mths from now ...we had planned on getting sonic survey of Hull done then and a reserve for replacing if needed .

It feels like when I had a moutin bike as a kid and the peddle miss shaped from the square bearing rod assembly on the peddle assemby and used to make my peddle jump a little ...I suppose what I'm saying is if its two squares which lock on a tapered rod feels like either the handle or the receiver square are now diamond shape and giving play ..does that make sense and if so could I add weld and resquare it ? By grinding it to shape?

The tapers are usually quite crudely ground with an angle grinder to fit and then given a sharp bang to get them to bite. But until you explore and find out how it is connected we are all just guessing. Time to get into that weed hatch, assuming it has one ?

[Deansm]

Weed hatch I've not seen yet but I will have a look when at the boat tomorrow day off today as back in uni from Monday but ill have a look take a photo and upload what I see thank you all for your help 

[Tracy D'arth]

3 hours ago, Deansm said:

Weed hatch I've not seen yet but I will have a look when at the boat tomorrow day off today as back in uni from Monday but ill have a look take a photo and upload what I see thank you all for your help 

You won't see, rather feel. Hand under water.

[Deansm]

Kk thank you all