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Running engines when moored "out of hours" #2 - The CRT view.


Neil2

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53 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

A few weeks ago there was a lengthy thread on the issue of inconsiderate boaters running engines after 8pm.

 

I said I would contact CRT to seek their advice on this issue, and to suggest that as it seems to be an increasing problem they might like to put some measures in place to monitor it.  I sent the letter on 1st Sept.

 

I received a reply this morning signed by Richard Parry, and I don't doubt that he wrote it.  So, first point is, if you bother to write to the Chief Executive direct, the chances are he will read it personally.  I must admit this took me by surprise as I fully expected to get a reply from some customer relations person further down the line.  So credit to Mr Parry.

 

The relevant parts of the reply are:

 

As you might expect, CRT "take breaches of licence conditions seriously" and will make contact with any boaters who have been reported as being in breach of their conditions.  The offender is reminded of their conditions and if the matter persists there are processes whereby CRT will ultimately terminate a licence.  

 

Mr Parry advises "...others should not take the matter up with the offending boater themselves and potentially put themselves at risk."  Instead they should report the matter via customer services either by phone or through the "contact us" part of the CRT website, giving the location and index number of the boat concerned. 

 

Not surprisingly CRT would not want to risk any liability issues by advising boaters to tackle boat licence culprits, though Mr Parry doesn't actually say that.

 

Finally, on the issue of monitoring, Mr Parry states that;  "We now have a new customer relationship management system in place and can track all cases to identify if there are repeat complaints.  It is helpful to receive any reports of boats running their engines or generators outside permitted hours, so that we can monitor the scale of the problem and respond accordingly".

 

Make of that what you will, but the least we can all do is take Mr Parry at his word and assiduously report future incidents as he suggests.  We might then find out what "respond accordingly" actually means. 

 

 

Probably put a bag over the offenders generator say awaiting fixing 😁

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1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

A few weeks ago there was a lengthy thread on the issue of inconsiderate boaters running engines after 8pm.

 

I said I would contact CRT to seek their advice on this issue, and to suggest that as it seems to be an increasing problem they might like to put some measures in place to monitor it.  I sent the letter on 1st Sept.

 

I received a reply this morning signed by Richard Parry, and I don't doubt that he wrote it.  So, first point is, if you bother to write to the Chief Executive direct, the chances are he will read it personally.  I must admit this took me by surprise as I fully expected to get a reply from some customer relations person further down the line.  So credit to Mr Parry.

 

The relevant parts of the reply are:

 

As you might expect, CRT "take breaches of licence conditions seriously" and will make contact with any boaters who have been reported as being in breach of their conditions.  The offender is reminded of their conditions and if the matter persists there are processes whereby CRT will ultimately terminate a licence.  

 

Mr Parry advises "...others should not take the matter up with the offending boater themselves and potentially put themselves at risk."  Instead they should report the matter via customer services either by phone or through the "contact us" part of the CRT website, giving the location and index number of the boat concerned. 

 

Not surprisingly CRT would not want to risk any liability issues by advising boaters to tackle boat licence culprits, though Mr Parry doesn't actually say that.

 

Finally, on the issue of monitoring, Mr Parry states that;  "We now have a new customer relationship management system in place and can track all cases to identify if there are repeat complaints.  It is helpful to receive any reports of boats running their engines or generators outside permitted hours, so that we can monitor the scale of the problem and respond accordingly".

 

Make of that what you will, but the least we can all do is take Mr Parry at his word and assiduously report future incidents as he suggests.  We might then find out what "respond accordingly" actually means. 

 

 

 

He may have personally signed it but I doubt he personally composed it or even read it or the original.

 

Thats what a corporate communication manager is for.

 

Cynical! Moi?

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I seems to me there are a lot of grumpy people on the canals. Put those who seem to do as they like and cause irritation together with  those who are irritated and the entire population is well covered .

I know someone who goes too fast but he is the first to complain if someone else passes  too fast .

Running engines falls into the same category as going too fast or too slow and other such minor offences .

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30 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I seems to me there are a lot of grumpy people on the canals. Put those who seem to do as they like and cause irritation together with  those who are irritated and the entire population is well covered .

 

A very perceptive observation. And if I may add my own, there is a pretty big overlap when one draws a Venn diagram of those two types of people.

 

People who do as they like are often irritated by others doing the same, as your second para illustrates! 

 

 

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12 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

He may have personally signed it but I doubt he personally composed it or even read it or the original.

 

Thats what a corporate communication manager is for.

 

Cynical! Moi?

I made a complaint and copied him in to it and a few days later he called me to check that my complaint had been dealt with and to apologise for what had happened.

 

I've never had a problem with Mr Parry.  But I have major issues with some of the people working under him.

Edited by doratheexplorer
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9 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I seems to me there are a lot of grumpy people on the canals. Put those who seem to do as they like and cause irritation together with  those who are irritated and the entire population is well covered .

I know someone who goes too fast but he is the first to complain if someone else passes  too fast .

Running engines falls into the same category as going too fast or too slow and other such minor offences .

There are a lot of people on the canals whose main pleasure is in being grumpy, argumentative, boorish,  quoting rules and bylaws, policing their little bit of bank, interfering with everybody else's day, thinking they are experts after 18 months of boating and thinking that spending a lot on a boat entitles them to special treatment. There are also a lot of very nice people who realise that they are fortunate to have a boat and a canal to travel on and add a bit of joy to the day.  Its a bit early to raise a glass of alcoholic stuff  but I will lift a cup of coffee to them.

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19 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I made a complaint and copied him in to it and a few days later he called me to check that my complaint had been dealt with and to apologise for what had happened.

 

I've never had a problem with Mr Parry.  But I have major issues with some of the people working under him.

Many organisations are arranged so that the front person can be the Nice Guy and someone down below can be the Nasty Guy.  Gives the flexibility that when the hard line needs adjusting then the top guy can over rule but not if they said it in the first place.

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15 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

He may have personally signed it but I doubt he personally composed it or even read it or the original.

 

Thats what a corporate communication manager is for.

 

Cynical! Moi?

 

14 hours ago, Ianws said:

Happens all the time. 

 

 

I have spent enough years working in large organisations to know when a reply has come from the person signing it.  

 

I have no doubt that Mr Parry dealt with this personally.

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36 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

 

I have spent enough years working in large organisations to know when a reply has come from the person signing it.  

 

 

 

Interesting.

 

As I used to regularly craft replies regarding complaints which were then signed by CEO's I am curious to know how you can tell.

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9 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

Interesting.

 

As I used to regularly craft replies regarding complaints which were then signed by CEO's I am curious to know how you can tell.

Some years ago, in a pre digital era, I was present when the senior lawyer on the project we were working on asked the Chief Exec to sign several times on a blank sheet of paper, so that the signatures could later be cut out, pasted onto documents and photocopied before sending out!

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5 hours ago, MartynG said:

I seems to me there are a lot of grumpy people on the canals. Put those who seem to do as they like and cause irritation together with  those who are irritated and the entire population is well covered .

I know someone who goes too fast but he is the first to complain if someone else passes  too fast .

Running engines falls into the same category as going too fast or too slow and other such minor offences .

Someone going too fast past your boat is a momentary irritation, and the crawlers can either be passed or let go while you boil a kettle.  The late engine and genny runners, on the other hand  can wreck an entire evening, or, as in the case on the Macc, make a really nice visitor mooring unusable.

Still,  there are others, and I'm slightly more tolerant about moving on than I was...

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1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Someone going too fast past your boat is a momentary irritation, and the crawlers can either be passed or let go while you boil a kettle.  The late engine and genny runners, on the other hand  can wreck an entire evening, or, as in the case on the Macc, make a really nice visitor mooring unusable.

Still,  there are others, and I'm slightly more tolerant about moving on than I was...

 

So given Mr Parry's commitment we've just seen to enforcing the T&Cs, has anyone here actually reported this bod's engine-running and generally aggressive behaviour, via the channels suggested?

 

(Aggressive behaviour towards other boaters also contravenes one of the T&C, iirc.)

 

 

20 hours ago, Neil2 said:

Mr Parry advises "...others should not take the matter up with the offending boater themselves and potentially put themselves at risk."  Instead they should report the matter via customer services either by phone or through the "contact us" part of the CRT website, giving the location and index number of the boat concerned. 

 

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8 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

I made a complaint and copied him in to it and a few days later he called me to check that my complaint had been dealt with and to apologise for what had happened.

 

I've never had a problem with Mr Parry.  But I have major issues with some of the people working under him.

When I worked for a living every now and then us southerners would end up in Aberdeen for a few days at the main office for some reason. This always had a visit from the big boss, He explained one day that he liked meeting us because that is how he found out what was really happening down south and not what got filtered out by layers of management.

Edited by ditchcrawler
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On 17/09/2021 at 08:46, doratheexplorer said:

I made a complaint and copied him in to it and a few days later he called me to check that my complaint had been dealt with and to apologise for what had happened.

 

I've never had a problem with Mr Parry.  But I have major issues with some of the people working under him.

Same for me a few years ago with falling water levels making it impossible to get into boats! It was however possible to walk off the bank and onto the roof! It was sorted in hours after I sent the email and I had an email from Richard apologising for the problem 

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On 16/09/2021 at 18:40, Neil2 said:

A few weeks ago there was a lengthy thread on the issue of inconsiderate boaters running engines after 8pm.

 

I said I would contact CRT to seek their advice on this issue, and to suggest that as it seems to be an increasing problem they might like to put some measures in place to monitor it.  I sent the letter on 1st Sept.

 

I received a reply this morning signed by Richard Parry, and I don't doubt that he wrote it.  So, first point is, if you bother to write to the Chief Executive direct, the chances are he will read it personally.  I must admit this took me by surprise as I fully expected to get a reply from some customer relations person further down the line.  So credit to Mr Parry.

 

The relevant parts of the reply are:

 

As you might expect, CRT "take breaches of licence conditions seriously" and will make contact with any boaters who have been reported as being in breach of their conditions.  The offender is reminded of their conditions and if the matter persists there are processes whereby CRT will ultimately terminate a licence.  

 

Mr Parry advises "...others should not take the matter up with the offending boater themselves and potentially put themselves at risk."  Instead they should report the matter via customer services either by phone or through the "contact us" part of the CRT website, giving the location and index number of the boat concerned. 

 

Not surprisingly CRT would not want to risk any liability issues by advising boaters to tackle boat licence culprits, though Mr Parry doesn't actually say that.

 

Finally, on the issue of monitoring, Mr Parry states that;  "We now have a new customer relationship management system in place and can track all cases to identify if there are repeat complaints.  It is helpful to receive any reports of boats running their engines or generators outside permitted hours, so that we can monitor the scale of the problem and respond accordingly".

 

Make of that what you will, but the least we can all do is take Mr Parry at his word and assiduously report future incidents as he suggests.  We might then find out what "respond accordingly" actually means. 

 

 

Running engines has nothing to do with licence conditions, they are statutory and all contained in the 1995 BW act .

 

 CRT is referring to a voluntary code of conduct that used to be called " The Boaters Handbook" which they now falsely claim is a licence contract that can be cancelled and with it the licence,  however no contract can override the issue of a statutory licence and any contract that claims to is invalid even if you agreed to it or signed it or thought it was real.

 

In the past any one who challenged such threats of licence revocation or fines the case was quietly dropped by CRT who do not want this matter exposed in court.


 

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3 minutes ago, waterworks said:

Running engines has nothing to do with licence conditions, they are statutory and all contained in the 1995 BW act .

 

 CRT is referring to a voluntary code of conduct that used to be called " The Boaters Handbook" which they now falsely claim is a licence contract that can be cancelled and with it the licence,  however no contract can override the issue of a statutory licence and any contract that claims to is invalid even if you agreed to it or signed it or thought it was real.

 

In the past any one who challenged such threats of licence revocation or fines the case was quietly dropped by CRT who do not want this matter exposed in court.


 

 

That's as may be, but if CRT decide not to issue a licence to someone as they have a record of breaching the T&Cs, e.g. by running their engine after 8pm, then it puts them to one helluvalot of trouble, court hearings etc, to force CRT's hand. Which is fine by me. 

 

Also, I suspect even if forced to issue the license, CRT could make it a really short license so the antisocial boater is forced to go through the whole thing again after, say, three months to get another. Ad infinitum. 

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31 minutes ago, waterworks said:

Running engines has nothing to do with licence conditions, they are statutory and all contained in the 1995 BW act .

 

Well - everyday is a school day.

I thought I was fairly Au-Fait with the 1995 Act and do not recall ever having seen such a requirement re running engines between 8pm and 8 am.

 

Would you be kind enough to post details of which Part, Section and Subsection this requirement is stated.

 

Thank you in anticipation.

 

If it helps - here is the Act in full :

 

British Waterways Act 1995 (legislation.gov.uk)

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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59 minutes ago, waterworks said:

Running engines has nothing to do with licence conditions, they are statutory and all contained in the 1995 BW act .

 

 CRT is referring to a voluntary code of conduct that used to be called " The Boaters Handbook" which they now falsely claim is a licence contract that can be cancelled and with it the licence,  however no contract can override the issue of a statutory licence and any contract that claims to is invalid even if you agreed to it or signed it or thought it was real.

 

In the past any one who challenged such threats of licence revocation or fines the case was quietly dropped by CRT who do not want this matter exposed in court.


 

 

 

Part II of schedule 2 of the Act (paras 1&5) does give CRT a fair amount of leeway when it comes to imposing licence conditions.

 

The issue is then whether CRT imposing an 8pm curfew on engine running is a reasonable "standard" within the Act. 

 

I see the point you are making, it's a little like property landlords imposing unreasonable  tenancy conditions - even if the tenant signs an agreement - eg not to keep a pet -  it doesn't make the conditions enforceable.  

 

But it's not an argument for saying there should not be any measurable standards in the licence conditions.  The law says it's ok for CRT to set standards for the operation of boat equipment and engines, so you have to start somewhere.  You might argue about whether 8pm to 8am is reasonable, but I doubt you could argue about the principle of having stated restricted hours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Part II of schedule 2 of the Act (paras 1&5) does give CRT a fair amount of leeway when it comes to imposing licence conditions.

 

 

 

(From memory there are far more options for imposing 'conditions' in the 1983 Act".

 

But, the above quoted sections / subsections do not specifically relate to the hours allowed for engine operation

 

Part II

Section 1 does however, specifically mention "...and the prevention of pollution, noise and interference with the operation of radio or television equipment".

Section 2, 3 & 4. No relevance

Section 5(a)  makes mention that proviosn may be made re conditions for engines - but for propulsion ONLY.  "....with regard to the construction, maintenance and operation of engines used for the propulsion of powered boats and to the storage and supply of fuel for such engines"

 

I'd be very grateful to "Waterworks" for his guidance as to which part of the Act specifically relates to running engines between 8pm and 8am.

 

I wonder if this 'fact' is another that has emanated from someone on the internet writing what they would like things to be, rather than what they actually are.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

(From memory there are far more options for imposing 'conditions' in the 1983 Act".

 

But, the above quoted sections / subsections do not specifically relate to the hours allowed for engine operation

 

Part II

Section 1 does however, specifically mention "...and the prevention of pollution, noise and interference with the operation of radio or television equipment".

Section 2, 3 & 4. No relevance

Section 5(a)  makes mention that proviosn may be made re conditions for engines - but for propulsion ONLY.  "....with regard to the construction, maintenance and operation of engines used for the propulsion of powered boats and to the storage and supply of fuel for such engines"

 

I'd be very grateful to "Waterworks" for his guidance as to which part of the Act specifically relates to running engines between 8pm and 8am.

 

I wonder if this 'fact' is another that has emanated from someone on the internet writing what they would like things to be, rather than what they actually are.

 

Alan - unless I have read it wrong I think that is his argument -  ie that the licence condition is unenforceable because it isn't covered by the Act.

 

I may be wrong, perhaps @waterworks could clarify?

Edited by Neil2
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