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Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel


Bosley Dave

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6 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

He thinks he read it somewhere, the only thing that I can think of is a generator may be classed as a Diesel engine so could invalidate the electric boat license as would need to be running when the boat is under propulsion. With it topping up a battery bank it hasn’t???

  I’m sure @IanD will know as he would of thoroughly researched.

The generator doesn't have to run when the boat is moving, the majority of the time it'll be on battery power. The only means of *propulsion* -- meaning, connected to the propeller -- is the electric motor.

 

Everything else (solar, shoreline, petrol or diesel or gas or hydrogen generator, Stirling generator, boiler plus steam turbine, gas turbine, modular nuclear reactor, hamster wheel, stationary bicycle, wind turbine...) is a means of charging the battery.

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7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Everything else (solar, shoreline, petrol or diesel or gas or hydrogen generator, Stirling generator, boiler plus steam turbine, gas turbine, modular nuclear reactor, hamster wheel, stationary bicycle, wind turbine...) is a means of charging the battery.

 

But with a single battery bank you can't have a system where the current from the generator all flows into the battery, while at the same time a separate current flows out from the battery to the propulsion motor. The two currents will necessarily partially cancel out, meaning some current must be flowing directly from the generator to the motor. (I would add that I can't see a problem with this arrangement, but AdeE says it is not allowed). The only way around that I can see is to have two battery banks - one charginging from the generator (so not involved in propulsion at all), and a separate battery bank driving the propulsion motor without diesel assistance, with periodic swapping over of the battery connections. Although whether that would be by a manual switchover every few hours, or some sort of high frequency automated electronic switching system I'm not sure.

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8 minutes ago, IanD said:

The generator doesn't have to run when the boat is moving, the majority of the time it'll be on battery power. The only means of *propulsion* -- meaning, connected to the propeller -- is the electric motor.

I know how it works, @Tacet was asking why can’t a generator be hooked directly to the elect engine and people ask would that still be classed as elect propulsion????  At least with a generator charging the batteries it’s it’s not always running.

  There’s a boat at Sheffield one of the first electric boats, done well before Finesse’s first,  2x large separate battery banks, when the motor is running off one bank the generator is charging the other, once bank is depleted by engine it switches over to the full bank and the generator charges the empty. No solar panels. 

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1 minute ago, David Mack said:

 

But with a single battery bank you can't have a system where the current from the generator all flows into the battery, while at the same time a separate current flows out from the battery to the propulsion motor. The two currents will necessarily partially cancel out, meaning some current must be flowing directly from the generator to the motor. (I would add that I can't see a problem with this arrangement, but AdeE says it is not allowed). The only way around that I can see is to have two battery banks - one charginging from the generator (so not involved in propulsion at all), and a separate battery bank driving the propulsion motor without diesel assistance, with periodic swapping over of the battery connections. Although whether that would be by a manual switchover every few hours, or some sort of high frequency automated electronic switching system I'm not sure.

 

That's not how the rules work -- obviously power from the generator (or any other power source) can go to wherever it's demanded, either 230Vac loads or to charge the batteries (after conversion to DC in the combi) or to run the motor (after conversion to 3ph AC in the controller).

 

The rules say that the only means of propulsion -- which means the thing wot makes to prop go round -- must be an electric motor. They don't say anything about where the power to do this originally comes from, which is why I gave a stupidly long list...

 

This may or may not be logical, but it's what the rules say -- and unless they also ban diesel generators (on any boat) I can't see that changing, though there's nothing to stop them removing the "electric discount".

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

But with a single battery bank you can't have a system where the current from the generator all flows into the battery, while at the same time a separate current flows out from the battery to the propulsion motor. The two currents will necessarily partially cancel out, meaning some current must be flowing directly from the generator to the motor. (I would add that I can't see a problem with this arrangement, but AdeE says it is not allowed). The only way around that I can see is to have two battery banks - one charginging from the generator (so not involved in propulsion at all), and a separate battery bank driving the propulsion motor without diesel assistance, with periodic swapping over of the battery connections. Although whether that would be by a manual switchover every few hours, or some sort of high frequency automated electronic switching system I'm not sure.

With the amount of Lithium battery ampage, I imagine there will be enough for a day’s cruising no problem. Then if there’s no solar you would only need to run the generator when moored up. Mind you I don’t know how many amps you would use in a days cruising, but the Victron is only providing 120Ah charging output.

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5 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I know how it works, @Tacet was asking why can’t a generator be hooked directly to the elect engine and people ask would that still be classed as elect propulsion????  At least with a generator charging the batteries it’s it’s not always running.

  There’s a boat at Sheffield one of the first electric boats, done well before Finesse’s first,  2x large separate battery banks, when the motor is running off one bank the generator is charging the other, once bank is depleted by engine it switches over to the full bank and the generator charges the empty. No solar panels. 

 

If you did have that then it's a diesel-electric (like rail locos) so the motor has to run all the time and provide all the power. I suspect this would be viewed as just an alternative to a gearbox -- which it is -- and therefore not "electric propulsion", but I don't know why somebody would build a boat like this except to test the rules, it takes away the main selling point of hybrids/electric boats which is "silent cruising".

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16 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

With the amount of Lithium battery ampage, I imagine there will be enough for a day’s cruising no problem. Then if there’s no solar you would only need to run the generator when moored up. Mind you I don’t know how many amps you would use in a days cruising, but the Victron is only providing 120Ah charging output.

 

[BTW, you need to sort out your amps and Ah...]

 

I've provided power numbers several times already in this thread, I'll do it one last time... 😉

 

Typical propulsion power usage (8h day, mixed cruising/moored boats/locks) : 14kWh per day (3kWx4h when cruising, 1kWx2h passing moored boats, 0kWx2h in locks)

Maximum possible motor power draw (upstream, fast flowing river, yellow boards) : 15kW/20hp

Likely sustained long-term power on rivers : 9kW/12hp

Battery : 48V/700Ah/35kWh LFP (all usable)

Solar panel average yield in summer : 7kWh per day (2kWh in winter)

Net energy used per full day of typical cruising: 7kWh

Generator : 9kVA

Inverter/charger : 10kVA (140A=7kW maximum charge rate to battery)

Domestic power use per day -- ??? (depends completely on equipment and how it's used), maybe 4kWh or so including inverter zero-power draw?

 

I'm sure you can work out all possible scenarios from these numbers 😉

 

If you do need to run the generator, it would be crazy to do it while moored up in silence next to other boats -- far better to run it for perhaps an hour a day while travelling, then you also have hot water.

Edited by IanD
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58 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Physically there is nothing stopping you, but 'technically' to be a 'zero emission propulson' there must be an intermediary stage between the diesel powered generator (dirty smelly emission producing lump of metal) and the actual drive shaft.

 

Even C&RTs licence T&Cs say that to get the 25% discount the electic motor must be the sole means of powering the boat. 

 

25% discount if the Boat has an electric motor as its sole means of propulsion

 

Now if the generator connects directly to the motor and not via all the other gubbins of batteries and controllers etc, is the electric motor still the sole means of propulsion ?

If that is the case you could have your prop-shaft turned by a 12v electric motor connected to the alternator and keep your smelly dirty engine.

 

O what fun can be had with badly written rules.

 

55 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

He thinks he read it somewhere, the only thing that I can think of is a generator may be classed as a Diesel engine so could invalidate the electric boat license as would need to be running when the boat is under propulsion. With it topping up a battery bank it hasn’t???

  I’m sure @IanD will know as he would of thoroughly researched.

A bit misleading to say that a direct connection is not allowed. 

 

In the same manner, one could say that any diesel engine MUST not be connected to the prop (but omitting the bit about only if you want to claim the electric boat licence discount) or even that electrically propelled boast are not allowed (but omitting the bit about only if you want to claim the unpowered boat licence discount). 

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2 hours ago, IanD said:

far better to run it for perhaps an hour a day while travelling, then you also have hot water.

“ If you did have that then it's a diesel-electric(like rail locos)” for an hour a day😂 🤔have a good night.

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On 24/07/2022 at 21:24, IanD said:

That Bell Marine motor is ludicrously expensive, and ends up needing an "egg-whisk" prop due to high rpm (yes I looked at it...)

Is there a particular motor that you recommend? I feel like a motor in a pod on the end of the tiller in lieu of a rudder makes more sense but it seems like electric narrowboats stick with having an inboard motor and stern gland. Do you know why that is?

 

On 24/07/2022 at 21:48, Alan de Enfield said:

That is not allowed as if the generator could be directly connected to the prop / gear box then it becomes diesel powered.

The generator MUST no be able to directly propel the boat.

I don't understand this. Who doesnt allow it? Cart? BSS? Insurance? Why would this be a problem? I'm going to take a guess that you mean for HMRC declaration since that is roughly what this thread is about.

 

Unless you physically isolate the batteries from the charge while cruising, the charge side of the circuit and the load side are necessarily directly connected. And of course it would be a semantic distinction anyway because whether you charge your batteries with a diesel generator first or directly power the motor from the generator, the energy propelling the boat still comes from diesel.

 

You could probably keep accounting such that you don't use more energy than what you get from solar for propulsion, and account for all the generator usage for domestic, and hence always declare 0% propulsion. As long as your batteries are big enough this would be a reasonable position.

 

On 25/07/2022 at 17:37, Alan de Enfield said:

technically' to be a 'zero emission propulson' there must be an intermediary stage between the diesel powered generator (dirty smelly emission producing lump of metal) and the actual drive shaft.

 

Even C&RTs licence T&Cs say that to get the 25% discount the electic motor must be the sole means of powering the boat. 

 

25% discount if the Boat has an electric motor as its sole means of propulsion

Of course the intermediary stage doesn't help and will actually hurt due to inefficiencies. Luckily I don't think that follows at all from your bold text - the electric motor IS the sole means of propulsion regardless of where the energy comes from. Except for the parallel hybrid design (which no one wants anyway)

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The electric boat situation may be contrasted with the legal situation that used to exist before radio licences were abolished..Under the old Wireless Telegraphy Acts, you did not require a licence for a wireless that was only operated using its internal batteries..That meant that you not only needed a licence for a radio that was  operated from mains electricity, you also needed one for a built-in car radio that drew its power from the vehicle's electricity supply. So what mattered was where the electricity came from, not the way it was used, because that was how the law was drafted.

 

If I have understood it correctly, the relevant  regulations regarding boats are different from the old wireless licence requirements, in that they only specify the way electricity is used (namely, to propel a boat through the water using an electric motor),  not where it comes from,  so whether the motor gets its electricity from a battery or a dynamo/alternator turned by a prime mover,  should  prima facie not be an issue. However, the relevant  official documents would need to be checked carefully, as such documents often have schedules or appendices that include definitions of some of the terms used in the main document. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, jupiter1124 said:

Is there a particular motor that you recommend? I feel like a motor in a pod on the end of the tiller in lieu of a rudder makes more sense but it seems like electric narrowboats stick with having an inboard motor and stern gland. Do you know why that is?

 

[snip]

 

Of course the intermediary stage doesn't help and will actually hurt due to inefficiencies. Luckily I don't think that follows at all from your bold text - the electric motor IS the sole means of propulsion regardless of where the energy comes from. Except for the parallel hybrid design (which no one wants anyway)

 

I did a lot of looking into this. If you want an "off-the-shelf" ready-to-go narrowboat solution that's known to work, the Waterworld 15kW one is probably the best, and reasonably priced -- the entire system including motor controller, display and everything else is several grand cheaper than just the Bell Marine motor, which needs several thousand pounds worth of "extras" to make a complete drive system:

 

https://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/products/waterworld

 

If you want a more "roll your own" solution then the best motor I found was the Engiro 205W-12013 which is rated at 15kW continuous on 48V, power is at 1080rpm which means a sensible sized prop not an egg whisk.

 

https://www.voltsport.co.uk/Engiro-205W_12013

 

They also supply kits for narrowboats and wideboats, but their off-the shelf narrowboat one uses a lower power higher speed motor which is less suitable. They also do one targeted at widebeams which uses a motor (12202) with two controllers for more power, which is overkill for a narrowboat. I'm sure they'd do you a kit based on the 12013 motor if you asked.

 

Motors in pods sound attractive but these are targeted at the yacht market and are *extremely* expensive, they make even the BellMarine solution above (which came to about £12k IIRC) look cheap.

 

Series hybrids are taking over because they make more sense for narrowboats than parallel ones, especially if you're looking ahead to the sunlit uplands of having a canalside charging network. The parallel hybrids have too big a diesel engine, too small an electric motor which can't be disengaged from the prop shaft, too slow charging (and low efficiency) when moored up -- and are actually not that much cheaper when you add everything up.

 

Especially for battery charging when moored it's much better to run a small generator diesel at close to full power (about 25% efficiency at 7kW) then do what the HybridMarine system does and run a big propulsion diesel via alternators at a tiny fraction of full power (about 11% efficiency at 3kW) -- both charging time and fuel consumption are more than double for the parallel hybrid.

 

HybridMarine also recommend LA batteries which are cheap to buy, but which further increase generator/engine running time and fuel consumption due to the need for equalisation -- by the time you account for this (engine wear and servicing as well as fuel) and battery life, LFP batteries work out cheaper and give much shorter charging times than LA.

 

But whichever route you take, swapping a diesel setup for a hybrid is very expensive, and even installation from new costs considerably more -- mainly because a decent cocooned diesel generator on its own already costs more than a propulsion diesel+gearbox. You're paying a premium to get silent cruising and a much better onboard 230V system, and -- if this matters to you -- doing your bit to save the planet by reducing fuel consumption, not saving money.

 

This will of course change if/when charging networks happen and the generator can be ditched, just like happened with EVs compared to hybrid cars... 😉

 

Edited by IanD
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1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

I did a lot of looking into this. If you want an "off-the-shelf" ready-to-go narrowboat solution that's known to work, the Waterworld 15kW one is probably the best, and reasonably priced -- the entire system including motor controller, display and everything else is several grand cheaper than just the Bell Marine motor, which needs several thousand pounds worth of "extras" to make a complete drive system:

 

https://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/products/waterworld

 

If you want a more "roll your own" solution then the best motor I found was the Engiro 205W-12013 which is rated at 15kW continuous on 48V, power is at 1080rpm which means a sensible sized prop not an egg whisk.

 

https://www.voltsport.co.uk/Engiro-205W_12013

 

They also supply kits for narrowboats and wideboats, but their off-the shelf narrowboat one uses a lower power higher speed motor which is less suitable. They also do one targeted at widebeams which uses a motor (12202) with two controllers for more power, which is overkill for a narrowboat. I'm sure they'd do you a kit based on the 12013 motor if you asked.

 

Motors in pods sound attractive but these are targeted at the yacht market and are *extremely* expensive, they make even the BellMarine solution above (which came to about £12k IIRC) look cheap.

 

Series hybrids are taking over because they make more sense for narrowboats than parallel ones, especially if you're looking ahead to the sunlit uplands of having a canalside charging network. The parallel hybrids have too big a diesel engine, too small an electric motor which can't be disengaged from the prop shaft, too slow charging (and low efficiency) when moored up -- and are actually not that much cheaper when you add everything up.

 

Especially for battery charging when moored it's much better to run a small generator diesel at close to full power (about 25% efficiency at 7kW) then do what the HybridMarine system does and run a big propulsion diesel via alternators at a tiny fraction of full power (about 11% efficiency at 3kW) -- both charging time and fuel consumption are more than double for the parallel hybrid.

 

HybridMarine also recommend LA batteries which are cheap to buy, but which further increase generator/engine running time and fuel consumption due to the need for equalisation -- by the time you account for this (engine wear and servicing as well as fuel) and battery life, LFP batteries work out cheaper and give much shorter charging times than LA.

 

But whichever route you take, swapping a diesel setup for a hybrid is very expensive, and even installation from new costs considerably more -- mainly because a decent cocooned diesel generator on its own already costs more than a propulsion diesel+gearbox. You're paying a premium to get silent cruising and a much better onboard 230V system, and -- if this matters to you -- doing your bit to save the planet by reducing fuel consumption, not saving money.

 

This will of course change if/when charging networks happen and the generator can be ditched, just like happened with EVs compared to hybrid cars... 😉

 

A very useful round up Ian – thank you.

 

On a point of detail, could you share your observations on DC v. AC drive motors? I believe the Energy Solutions option is DC as are the Leech offerings (that you haven't referenced). The received wisdom that I have so far gleaned seems to suggest that, on balance, AC is the way to go. I'd be really interested to know more .........

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45 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

A very useful round up Ian – thank you.

 

On a point of detail, could you share your observations on DC v. AC drive motors? I believe the Energy Solutions option is DC as are the Leech offerings (that you haven't referenced). The received wisdom that I have so far gleaned seems to suggest that, on balance, AC is the way to go. I'd be really interested to know more .........

 

DC motors (like Lynch) are the "old-school" solution (like milk floats or fork-lifts), they have a commutator and brushes which need maintenance and tend to whine, and have lower efficiency so run hot -- they also tend to be higher-speed and geared down with a belt drive, which also tends to whine. They're also more difficult to protect if the propeller gets a jam. They are the cheapest solution -- but actually not *that* cheap when you add cost of controller and other required bits.

 

Modern boat drive systems (like EVs) use synchronous PMAC motors (usually direct-drive) driven by a controller which converts DC to variable-frequency AC, these are more efficient and quieter but a bit more expensive due to the neodymium magnets used. The controllers can do rapid torque sensing and limiting and are self-protecting, if the prop jams they very rapidly cut the power to the motor. They also provide a lot more sensing and diagnostic information, including motor current/power/torque/speed/temperature, not just for information/display but it makes them very robust and immune to overload or damage -- they can even sense if there's something fouling the prop but not stopping it.

 

The Waterworld/Energy Solutions motor/controller is air-cooled (simple to install) so the fan makes some noise, and also dumps the heat into the motor enclosure -- and if this is vented to let heat out, it also lets noise out. It's also rated at 1500rpm so needs a rather small "egg-whisk" propeller. The Engiro motor is water-cooled (no fan) so needs a small skin tank (and pump), adds a bit to the cost (bigger, lower-speed) but is quieter and dumps heat into the canal (like the controller) so can be enclosed, but needs more installation work -- see photo of the stern of my boat, you can see the motor cooling skin tank under the motor mounting rails.

 

DC motor (e.g. Lynch) -- cheapest, noisiest, least efficient, needs maintenance, difficult to protect

PMAC motor (air-cooled e.g. Waterworld) -- more expensive, quieter, efficient, zero maintenance, robust and "idiotproof", often needs "egg-whisk" prop (which can also be noisy)

PMAC motor (water-cooled e.g. Engiro) -- most expensive, quietest, better size prop

 

lockers stern.jpg

Edited by IanD
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32 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

DC motors (like Lynch) are the "old-school" solution (like milk floats or fork-lifts), they have a commutator and brushes which need maintenance and tend to whine, and have lower efficiency so run hot -- they also tend to be higher-speed and geared down with a belt drive, which also tends to whine. They're also more difficult to protect if the propeller gets a jam. They are the cheapest solution -- but actually not *that* cheap when you add cost of controller and other required bits.

 

Modern boat drive systems (like EVs) use synchronous PMAC motors (usually direct-drive) driven by a controller which converts DC to variable-frequency AC, these are more efficient and quieter but a bit more expensive due to the neodymium magnets used. The controllers can do rapid torque sensing and limiting and are self-protecting, if the prop jams they very rapidly cut the power to the motor. They also provide a lot more sensing and diagnostic information, including motor current/power/torque/speed/temperature, not just for information/display but it makes them very robust and immune to overload or damage -- they can even sense if there's something fouling the prop but not stopping it.

 

The Waterworld/Energy Solutions motor/controller is air-cooled (simple to install) so the fan makes some noise, and also dumps the heat into the motor enclosure -- and if this is vented to let heat out, it also lets noise out. It's also rated at 1500rpm so needs a rather small "egg-whisk" propeller. The Engiro motor is water-cooled (no fan) so needs a small skin tank (and pump), adds a bit to the cost (bigger, lower-speed) but is quieter and dumps heat into the canal (like the controller) so can be enclosed, but needs more installation work -- see photo of the stern of my boat, you can see the motor cooling skin tank under the motor mounting rails.

 

DC motor (e.g. Lynch) -- cheapest, noisiest, least efficient, needs maintenance, difficult to protect

PMAC motor (air-cooled e.g. Waterworld) -- more expensive, quieter, efficient, zero maintenance, robust and "idiotproof", often needs "egg-whisk" prop (which can also be noisy)

PMAC motor (water-cooled e.g. Engiro) -- most expensive, quietest, better size prop

 

lockers stern.jpg

I think you are biased Ian, lynch is 93% efficient, the motor controller is cheap under 500 squids and up to 90% efficient, yes it has to be geared by belts but that provides protection in case of a jam. As a conversion its easy to get the pulley sizes right so the propeller doesn't require changing, as everything is DC no losses there especially if charging by solar. It's a easy job to do as I have proved, the brushes are very long lived easy to change and cooling by bilge blower simple and cheap.

Now the off the shelf package is the way forward for new builds, but for people with engineering skills Cedric lynch's motor is a cheap way of doing the job on conversions. Mine has been reliable and whilst not totally silent shocks fishermen when they cant hear me coming.

The one big difference between them is I can diagnose and repair the DC system easily as its simple, I am not so sure about the AC systems. 

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1 minute ago, peterboat said:

I think you are biased Ian, lynch is 93% efficient, the motor controller is cheap under 500 squids and up to 90% efficient, yes it has to be geared by belts but that provides protection in case of a jam. As a conversion its easy to get the pulley sizes right so the propeller doesn't require changing, as everything is DC no losses there especially if charging by solar. It's a easy job to do as I have proved, the brushes are very long lived easy to change and cooling by bilge blower simple and cheap.

Now the off the shelf package is the way forward for new builds, but for people with engineering skills Cedric lynch's motor is a cheap way of doing the job on conversions. Mine has been reliable and whilst not totally silent shocks fishermen when they cant hear me coming.

The one big difference between them is I can diagnose and repair the DC system easily as its simple, I am not so sure about the AC systems. 

An interesting perspective Peter and, again, very informative.

 

I spent a fair time chatting with the Lynch people at last year's Crick show and came away feeling that they were very straightforward, helpful and would be an excellent firm to deal with even with the 'remoteness' that being based in Central Scotland tends to generate.

 

I can see it's very much horses for courses and I understand that the early Lynch motors were of very low efficiency but things have clearly changed.

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12 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

I can see it's very much horses for courses and I understand that the early Lynch motors were of very low efficiency but things have clearly changed.

As you say horses for courses @IanD is having an all singing and dancing high tech bespoke Narrowboat built, whilst the majority of boaters already have a Narrowboat and are looking for an electric upgrade/ replacement so a Lynch is a suitable choice, like what @peterboat has done. If you have deep pockets as @IanD keeps saying, then his option is the best for him, but not for the majority.

  

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21 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I think you are biased Ian, lynch is 93% efficient, the motor controller is cheap under 500 squids and up to 90% efficient, yes it has to be geared by belts but that provides protection in case of a jam. As a conversion its easy to get the pulley sizes right so the propeller doesn't require changing, as everything is DC no losses there especially if charging by solar. It's a easy job to do as I have proved, the brushes are very long lived easy to change and cooling by bilge blower simple and cheap.

Now the off the shelf package is the way forward for new builds, but for people with engineering skills Cedric lynch's motor is a cheap way of doing the job on conversions. Mine has been reliable and whilst not totally silent shocks fishermen when they cant hear me coming.

The one big difference between them is I can diagnose and repair the DC system easily as its simple, I am not so sure about the AC systems. 

 

I agree. He is especially over egging the maintenance required to brushes and commutators.

 

When I first started work, I had to maintain several motor generator and motor alternator sets, which were running 24/7.

 

Brushes needed inspecting every 6 months and changing every couple of years and commutators required cutting back and re-skimming every 10 years or so.

 

I have yet to see any canal boat with 87,600 hours running on it.

 

Finally, knowing how difficult to get boatyard "engineers" to diagnose and make effective repairs on today's simple diesel engined boats with relatively simple inverter fed mains electrical systems, I wonder how they will cope with the complicated electronics on state of the art hybrid boats?

 

 

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3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

 

This will of course change if/when charging networks happen and the generator can be ditched, just like happened with EVs compared to hybrid cars... 😉

 

I thought that was because the government finally realised people were buying them to save the tax and driving as if it didn't have an electric side to it and stopped the incentive.

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I think you are biased Ian, lynch is 93% efficient, the motor controller is cheap under 500 squids and up to 90% efficient, yes it has to be geared by belts but that provides protection in case of a jam. As a conversion its easy to get the pulley sizes right so the propeller doesn't require changing, as everything is DC no losses there especially if charging by solar. It's a easy job to do as I have proved, the brushes are very long lived easy to change and cooling by bilge blower simple and cheap.

Now the off the shelf package is the way forward for new builds, but for people with engineering skills Cedric lynch's motor is a cheap way of doing the job on conversions. Mine has been reliable and whilst not totally silent shocks fishermen when they cant hear me coming.

The one big difference between them is I can diagnose and repair the DC system easily as its simple, I am not so sure about the AC systems. 

 

Suggest you actually go and dig deep into the Lynch data sheets like I did, not just quoting "best-case" numbers. Under the conditions that it runs at in a narrowboat the Lynch motor that is commonly used is well under 90% efficient, and the Lynch controller is also less efficient than the PMAC ones like the Sevcon. Overall efficiency is about 10% lower IIRC. Not a killer, but it means about twice the amount of heat to get rid of.

 

I did say it was the cheapest option for a self-build, but the kits from suppliers like Volt are possibly easier still. Yes brushes last and are easy to change, but this still needs doing -- but this isn't a big problem, as you say. The motor and cooling fan (and commutator, and belts) make some noise which can be irritating if you're right next to it like on a narrowboat, I've heard this -- I guess you're a lot further away on your wideboat so it doesn't bother you?

 

If your DC controller fails then you'll have to either replace it or send it away to get it fixed, just like the Sevcon one. And it's probably more likely to fail since internally it's a "home-brewed" job made in very small volumes, the Sevcon ones are professionally made in high volumes and are fully encapsulated so very unlikely to fail -- the feedback (largely from the homebrew EV market) is that these are very reliable, partly because they have excellent protection.

Edited by IanD
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1 hour ago, Up-Side-Down said:

An interesting perspective Peter and, again, very informative.

 

I spent a fair time chatting with the Lynch people at last year's Crick show and came away feeling that they were very straightforward, helpful and would be an excellent firm to deal with even with the 'remoteness' that being based in Central Scotland tends to generate.

 

I can see it's very much horses for courses and I understand that the early Lynch motors were of very low efficiency but things have clearly changed.

Mine is a real Cedric lynch motor, Trevor who runs lynch used to be his business partner. I think Cedric now has his motors made by his business partners company in India. The quality is still good and the design remains the same. As Cuthound says the maintenance is easy stuff charging brushes the work of minutes rather than hours. For a new build an off the shelf system has a lot going for it as everything including the batteries is new and matched 

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1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

As you say horses for courses @IanD is having an all singing and dancing high tech bespoke Narrowboat built, whilst the majority of boaters already have a Narrowboat and are looking for an electric upgrade/ replacement so a Lynch is a suitable choice, like what @peterboat has done. If you have deep pockets as @IanD keeps saying, then his option is the best for him, but not for the majority.

  

That's what I said 😉

 

I wish people would actually read what I said, not what they *think* I said...

 

Even if you're doing it yourself, there are a lot of advantages to the kind of solution that Volt are selling -- if you can afford it, obviously. What I chose is expensive, and only makes sense if you're having a new boat built when it only adds maybe an extra 10% to the cost, much less than the difference between builders.

 

As with everything narrowboat-related, there's no single perfect solution, people will choose whatever suits them, depending on the depth of their pockets and how annoying they find whining noises... 😉

Edited by IanD
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11 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Suggest you actually go and dig deep into the Lynch data sheets like I did. Under the conditions that it runs at in a narrowboat the Lynch motor that is commonly used is well under 90% efficient, and the Lynch controller is also less efficient than the PMAC ones like the Sevcon. Overall efficiency is about 10% lower IIRC. Not a killer, but it means about twice the amount of heat to get rid of.

 

I did say it was the cheapest option for a self-build, but the kits from suppliers like Volt are possibly easier still. Yes brushes last and are easy to change, but this still needs doing -- but this isn't a big problem, as you say. The motor and cooling fan (and commutator, and belts) make some noise which can be irritating if you're right next to it like on a narrowboat, I've heard this -- I guess you're a lot further away on your wideboat so it doesn't bother you?

 

If your DC controller fails then you'll have to either replace it or send it away to get it fixed, just like the Sevcon one. And it's probably more likely to fail since internally it's a "home-brewed" job made in very small volumes, the Sevcon ones are professionally made in high volumes and are fully encapsulated so very unlikely to fail -- the feedback (largely from the homebrew EV market) is that these are very reliable, partly because they have excellent protection.

I don't use a lynch controller its expensive and not good 4QD make an excellent one and it comes with screen etc, they make them for Cedric and really match his motors  well or so it says🤣 I currently have a Curtis controller which is performing well and I have a good spare, I am going to fit a 4QD one this year as he wants me to test one for him.

The heat isn't an issue 4 hours cruising and the motor and controller are hand hot, but of course I am running an additional fan consuming electric 

Edited by peterboat
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1 hour ago, Up-Side-Down said:

An interesting perspective Peter and, again, very informative.

 

I spent a fair time chatting with the Lynch people at last year's Crick show and came away feeling that they were very straightforward, helpful and would be an excellent firm to deal with even with the 'remoteness' that being based in Central Scotland tends to generate.

 

I can see it's very much horses for courses and I understand that the early Lynch motors were of very low efficiency but things have clearly changed.

 

Go and check the actual efficiency curves for the motor that Lynch uses for narrowboats. Peak efficiency is 92%, but drops to 83% at full power (17% loss) which is when maximum power dissipation (heating) occurs. The Engiro motor is 93% efficient at full power (7% loss).

 

1745571685_LynchSwordfish.png.e2b2018c44c0a876500335a6ba07b080.png

Lynch motor.png

Engiro motor.png

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23 minutes ago, IanD said:

Even if you're doing it yourself, there are a lot of advantages to the kind of solution that Volt are selling -- if you can afford it, obviously. What I chose is expensive, and only makes sense if you're having a new boat built when it only adds maybe an extra 10% to the cost, much less than the difference between builders.

 

I would say a lot more then 10%, are you just talking about the electric motor and not the vast bank of Lithium batteries, massive generator, Solar Panels, controller and the other electrics involved?

Not knowing the exact figure I would say  an electric engine set up like yours would cost £50K plus fitted(motor/controller, generator, lithium and everything else in the chain) maybe that’s why the boats have gone up from £180K ish to over £250K ish and more since fitting them???

 9kva Kholer generator well over £15K,  10% I don’t think so.

  

Edited by PD1964
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