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Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel


Bosley Dave

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The marina I'm based at are to stop suppling red diesel and will swap to Crown HVO as a 'green' replacement. Their advice is that you can swap to the new fuel without any problems/issues. I have a c.20 year old Beta Marine engine - has anybody with a similar engine made this change, did you have to make any alterations to your fuel system and have you had any issues? Overall I think the move to more environmentally friendly fuels is great but I want to be aware of any issues/problems up front. 

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9 minutes ago, Bosley Dave said:

The marina I'm based at are to stop suppling red diesel and will swap to Crown HVO as a 'green' replacement. Their advice is that you can swap to the new fuel without any problems/issues. I have a c.20 year old Beta Marine engine - has anybody with a similar engine made this change, did you have to make any alterations to your fuel system and have you had any issues? Overall I think the move to more environmentally friendly fuels is great but I want to be aware of any issues/problems up front. 

Get a respirator, the exhaust will stink of chips.

Is this Heritage at Scholar Green? I have friends there.

9 minutes ago, Bosley Dave said:

The marina I'm based at are to stop suppling red diesel and will swap to Crown HVO as a 'green' replacement. Their advice is that you can swap to the new fuel without any problems/issues. I have a c.20 year old Beta Marine engine - has anybody with a similar engine made this change, did you have to make any alterations to your fuel system and have you had any issues? Overall I think the move to more environmentally friendly fuels is great but I want to be aware of any issues/problems up front. 

Get a respirator, the exhaust will stink of chips.

Is this Heritage at Scholar Green? I have friends there.

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4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Get a respirator, the exhaust will stink of chips.

 

You've not tried HVO have you?  That was a valid complaint about FAME biodiesel, HVO isn't the same thing despite being made from waste oil.

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19 minutes ago, john6767 said:

How does HVO work in terms of duty?

 

Currently the same taxes and duty as red diesel.  Various groups are asking for it to be a few ppl lower so it ends up the same price as diesel.

 

I do suspect that those getting barrels delivered are "forgetting" to declare a propulsion split though!

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42 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Currently the same taxes and duty as red diesel.  Various groups are asking for it to be a few ppl lower so it ends up the same price as diesel.

 

I do suspect that those getting barrels delivered are "forgetting" to declare a propulsion split though!


And you would?

 

Does that in turn mean that everytime I fill a can with red at a forecourt I must declare  a split?

or would you suggest I fill my can with 60% white and top with 40% red?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bosley Dave said:

The marina I'm based at are to stop suppling red diesel and will swap to Crown HVO as a 'green' replacement. Their advice is that you can swap to the new fuel without any problems/issues. I have a c.20 year old Beta Marine engine - has anybody with a similar engine made this change, did you have to make any alterations to your fuel system and have you had any issues? Overall I think the move to more environmentally friendly fuels is great but I want to be aware of any issues/problems up front. 

HVO is 100% miscible and therefore you can put any combination of gas oil and HVO in your tank. Comments below re pricing etc are accurate and as the member of the IWA Sustainable Boating Group who has been conducting HVO trials for the past 9 months I can assure you that you have nothing to worry about. Kubota, who make the base engines that Beta marinate, have given full OEM approval for use of HVO in their engines. Beta themselves suggest that you add a water separator and an electric fuel pump for any of the alternative or biofuels that you use in 'their' engines but I would suggest this relates to FAME-based biodiesel. I would be surprised if you didn't already have a water separator fitted already. Which marina is this btw?

Unlike FAME biodiesel their is very little smell from the exhaust and the black smoke is minimal. Not surprising really when HVO has a reduction in NoX of 30%+ and particulates of 85%+. 

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7 minutes ago, Goliath said:


And you would?

 

Does that in turn mean that everytime I fill a can with red at a forecourt I must declare  a split?

or would you suggest I fill my can with 60% white and top with 40% red?

 

 

 

You could tell the garage you want to pay extra duty and press a £10 note into their hand, I am sure that would be happy to do all the paperwork and pass the money on to HMRC 😀

An easier approach would be to drink a bit more beer and so donate to HMRC by that route. Vodka would be even better.

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Just now, wandering snail said:

Will be trying HVO in our Perkins M65 the first chance we get.

I think you'll be very pleased with the outcome. We're currently running trials with heritage engines and it has so far been used in both a Bolinder and a Gardner semi-diesel with very satisfactory results. On a hard run along the Bridgewater Canal the Bolinder (powering Spey) reported improved fuel consumption and a significant reduction in BCBs (black crumbly bits) while the helmsman of Skylark (Gardner semi-diesel) complained that whilst off setting a lock in a noisy environment he could no longer tell whether the engine was still running as the exhaust smoke had disappeared!

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32 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

You could tell the garage you want to pay extra duty and press a £10 note into their hand, I am sure that would be happy to do all the paperwork and pass the money on to HMRC 😀

An easier approach would be to drink a bit more beer and so donate to HMRC by that route. Vodka would be even better.

I can see them pissing in their pants when I offer the extra cash.
 

Hopefully I finish work end of this month, we can increase HMRC’s coffers together if you’re home before winter. 
 

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3 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

I think you'll be very pleased with the outcome. We're currently running trials with heritage engines and it has so far been used in both a Bolinder and a Gardner semi-diesel with very satisfactory results. On a hard run along the Bridgewater Canal the Bolinder (powering Spey) reported improved fuel consumption and a significant reduction in BCBs (black crumbly bits) while the helmsman of Skylark (Gardner semi-diesel) complained that whilst off setting a lock in a noisy environment he could no longer tell whether the engine was still running as the exhaust smoke had disappeared!

Wow, we'd love our smoke to disappear too! It's happened from new for the past 17 years.

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56 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Kubota, who make the base engines that Beta marinate, have given full OEM approval for use of HVO in their engines.


I’ve been trying to find out whether Kubota give approval - is there anything you could point me to showing this? Many thanks. 

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19 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I can see them pissing in their pants when I offer the extra cash.
 

Hopefully I finish work end of this month, we can increase HMRC’s coffers together if you’re home before winter. 
 

 

Currently at Aynho (so very close to where we first met you). If all goes well hope to be on the Rochdale summit in about 24 days time.

 

We paid for a few overnight moorings on the upper Thames, I expect the landowners do not declare this income on their tax return so I do need to find another way to contribute to HMRC.

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1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Had a quick word with a couple of tractor mechanics who are of the opinion that it is better avoided, stick to non fame red.

Why?? Always interested to hear reasoned observation or comment. It's just that their opinion is at variance with the world's diesel engine manufacturers who'd be most grateful, I'm sure, to learn about something they'd overlooked!

 

Comments such as these btw usually turn out to arise from confusion between 1st generation FAME biodiesel and 2nd generation HVO biofuel: two very different products. HVO has the same chemical formula as gas oil only minus the the minerals, aromatics and sulphur. With FAME biodiesel the reaction never totally completes and whilst the methanol and catalyst are washed out of the mix, residues remain and the reaction continues quietly on in the tank!!

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38 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Had a quick word with a couple of tractor mechanics who are of the opinion that it is better avoided, stick to non fame red.

 

I don't think you can get non FAME red anymore, you could a few years ago but that has changed. A couple of suppliers might be able to supply some for some of the time, but not consistently. I don't think anybody now sells it canalside.

 

All the info that I can find suggests that HVO is better than dyno diesel. I think it has a slightly lower viscosity which might upset one or two injection pumps a bit, and I do want confirmation that there is no lubricity issue.

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20 minutes ago, Thames Bhaji said:


I’ve been trying to find out whether Kubota give approval - is there anything you could point me to showing this? Many thanks. 

I can't drop on it right now but I'll have a hunt around and get back to you.

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3 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I don't think you can get non FAME red anymore, you could a few years ago but that has changed. A couple of suppliers might be able to supply some for some of the time, but not consistently. I don't think anybody now sells it canalside.

 

All the info that I can find suggests that HVO is better than dyno diesel. I think it has a slightly lower viscosity which might upset one or two injection pumps a bit, and I do want confirmation that there is no lubricity issue.

Lubricity is potentially an issue with all paraffinic fuels with the sulphur removed and potentially affects ULSD gas oil and HVO alike. Both rely on the addition of a lubricity additive at the refinery. If you have concerns (and they'll be just the same for dino-diesel and HVO) use your own additive or some two-stroke oil.

 

The irony is that in terms of lubricity, the addition of the current 7% (soon to be upped to 10%) FAME biodiesel to mineral diesel gives a similar level to that once contained in full fat high sulphur diesel. Its just all its other properties that mitigate strongly against its use in the marine environment!

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34 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

May be down to simple conservatism. But, have tests been done on common rail engines?

Yes and no!

VAG have approved their own fuel that is I think 30% HVO no higher so they obviously believe that 100%  HVO wont do their CR engines any good otherwise there would be a higher percentage in their fuel.

 

For me its boat engine yes when its available riverside, car engine not a kin chance.

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42 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

May be down to simple conservatism. But, have tests been done on common rail engines?

 

I was wondering that too. Modern tractors sound as though they have turbocharged common rail diesels just like cars and lorries so I'd be inclined to agree with the tractor mechanics just mentioned, assuming their experience is maintaining contemporary tractors.

 

But old skool tractors have proper diesels made by firms like Dorothy Perkins, and should be fine on it.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I was wondering that too. Modern tractors sound as though they have turbocharged common rail diesels just like cars and lorries so I'd be inclined to agree with the tractor mechanics just mentioned, assuming their experience is maintaining contemporary tractors.

 

But old skool tractors have proper diesels made by firms like Dorothy Perkins, and should be fine on it.

 

 

So the only area of HVO use where there have been any issues almost certainly relate to its reduced viscosity (mineral diesel is more viscose than HVO). The engine concerned is a 360 hp Volvo Penta, turbo-charged, common rail, marine lump – very much as MtB describes in the agricultural setting above. This is something we're looking into but without going into too much detail, in certain operating situations a fuel pump sensor was 'conned' into a false reading by what is probably a viscosity issue and it sent an erroneous message to the engine management  system, resulting into the engine going into limp home mode.

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51 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

So the only area of HVO use where there have been any issues almost certainly relate to its reduced viscosity (mineral diesel is more viscose than HVO). The engine concerned is a 360 hp Volvo Penta, turbo-charged, common rail, marine lump – very much as MtB describes in the agricultural setting above. This is something we're looking into but without going into too much detail, in certain operating situations a fuel pump sensor was 'conned' into a false reading by what is probably a viscosity issue and it sent an erroneous message to the engine management  system, resulting into the engine going into limp home mode.

Would that be the inlet control valve? If you can get to significant hours it wants some of the expensive bits taken apart and inspected under a microscope. Interesting stuff. If it's having problems compensating for lower viscosity, have you considered lowering the supply pressure?

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