Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

  I would say people were put off electric engines/boats a few years ago by the inability to run for a few hours or more before the requirement to charge. But to say now they are put off electric engines/boats by the inability to run on full power for a few hours or more is daft, as it just doesn’t happen, no matter what engine you have.

I'm not put off by either as both can be engineered around.

Its the cost that puts me off, in  the same way as it puts me off an EV.

I've saved about 700kg of CO2 so far this year by installing solar at home this  compensates for my diesel boat and car

Edited August 1, 2022 by Loddon
App was lying

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Probably but don't expect both protagonists to agree.

Nope, I agree, it's exactly what I've been saying 😉

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

Nope, I agree, it's exactly what I've been saying 😉

I trust you did notice the "both".  I was almost sure that you would agree.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I trust you did notice the "both".  I was almost sure that you would agree.

Tony I just want boaters to go electric and some can and do go Ian's route and some go my route, in the end it doesn't matter. There is a possibility that diesel could become expensive and difficult to obtain as the march to electrification goes on. If CRT sees its revenue, customers and waterways being underused it could be curtains for all of us! As who could justify maintenance on something that isn't being used. Also it can't be the preserve of the rich, people excluded because the system is to expensive, the London shuffle could end up the London drag!

My current system works but it's really sized for a narrowboat, I am changing the motor to something that is 25-30kw continuous to 50 -60kw peak. My current motor is 15kw continuous 30kw peak which is plenty for the boat I originally bought it for. A number of boaters in the EBA have gone down this route with great success and Cedric was a member of the EBA so his advice and knowledge was freely available. 

You Tony with all your years of helping boaters know that many boats are run on a careful budget with 60 year old BMCs still chugging on, the reason? they work, they might struggle but careful planning means they get there in the end. Dogless who used to post here has never ever gone on anything resembling fast moving water, plenty of others are very similar, most could get away with 10hp diesels because canals are there habitat.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Tony I just want boaters to go electric and some can and do go Ian's route and some go my route, in the end it doesn't matter. There is a possibility that diesel could become expensive and difficult to obtain as the march to electrification goes on. If CRT sees its revenue, customers and waterways being underused it could be curtains for all of us! As who could justify maintenance on something that isn't being used. Also it can't be the preserve of the rich, people excluded because the system is to expensive, the London shuffle could end up the London drag!

My current system works but it's really sized for a narrowboat, I am changing the motor to something that is 25-30kw continuous to 50 -60kw peak. My current motor is 15kw continuous 30kw peak which is plenty for the boat I originally bought it for. A number of boaters in the EBA have gone down this route with great success and Cedric was a member of the EBA so his advice and knowledge was freely available. 

You Tony with all your years of helping boaters know that many boats are run on a careful budget with 60 year old BMCs still chugging on, the reason? they work, they might struggle but careful planning means they get there in the end. Dogless who used to post here has never ever gone on anything resembling fast moving water, plenty of others are very similar, most could get away with 10hp diesels because canals are there habitat.

Many boaters could indeed probably get away with 10hp diesels -- or electric motors -- because in reality most boaters never actually *need* more then this, any more than they need an anchor capable of mooring a supertanker in a hurricane.

 

But every time this is suggested -- for example, by those in favour of "electric" boats -- there are loads of posts from people who say this can't possibly work for them because [navigating upstream on the Orinoco in a hurricane for an entire day] is then impossible.

 

If you *really* think you need to do this then you can still have an "electric" boat, but you'll have to spend more money. If you don't need to do this then you can spend less money.

 

But whichever is the case, using modern motor/controller technology (e.g. PMAC) will usually give you a better result (e.g. more efficient, more reliable) then relying on something dating back to the days of milk floats... 😉

Edited August 1, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Many boaters could indeed probably get away with 10hp diesels -- or electric motors -- because in reality most boaters never actually *need* more then this, any more than they need an anchor capable of mooring a supertanker in a hurricane.

 

But every time this is suggested -- for example, by those in favour of "electric" boats -- there are loads of posts from people who say this can't possibly work for them because [navigating upstream on the Orinoco in a hurricane for an entire day] is then impossible.

 

If you *really* think you need to do this then you can still have an "electric" boat, but you'll have to spend more money. If you don't need to do this then you can spend less money.

 

But whichever is the case, using modern motor/controller technology (e.g. PMAC) will usually give you a better result (e.g. more efficient, more reliable) then relying on something dating back to the days of milk floats... 😉

Remember it's a PM motor using that big words for magnets I can't remember 🤣🤣🤣

I had a good chat with him and small brushless motors will be out in a couple of months. A large one which I want will be next year. Cedric is working on efficiency on them at the moment. By the time I have a motor you should have your boat. So interesting times ahead for us both 

[IanD]

11 hours ago, peterboat said:

Remember it's a PM motor using that big words for magnets I can't remember 🤣🤣🤣

I had a good chat with him and small brushless motors will be out in a couple of months. A large one which I want will be next year. Cedric is working on efficiency on them at the moment. By the time I have a motor you should have your boat. So interesting times ahead for us both 

Good, when he actually has PMAC motors out and available on the open market, they might be competitive with existing suppliers -- we'll have to wait and see what the prices and performance are like, and whether they're suitable for direct drive or need gearing down.

 

Until then, what I said earlier about the existing "Lynch" motors being uncompetitive (and no cheaper) remains true -- which is the answer to the question that started all this off, which was "What motors do you recommend?" 😉

[Ian Mac]

Well our experiment with HVO has come to an abrupt end as we can not get any delivered. We wanted 500l delivered somewhere around Oxford. Only found one company that would supply HVO at all, and they wanted us to pick it up in 20l boxes at £2.32 a litre.
The world has gone totally mad.
As for electric it will be the future, however we need cold fusion to really happen first, so that there is a realistic provision of power, and then it may be steam power rather electricity as heat is always easier to generate. One can always put your name down for a few of these http://ecatorders.com/

or wait for one of these

https://brillouinenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Brillouin-Press-Release-ICCF24-7-20-22-Final.pdf take you pick!

For those that say they do not need full power for 2hrs or more, they obviously have not done many rivers, coming down the Thames or Trent punching the tide is full power for hours, alternatively going down the big ditch we ran basically flat out for over 6hrs all the way from Manchester to EP the last 4hrs below Latchford gets really boring in that respect.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Ian Mac said:

Well our experiment with HVO has come to an abrupt end as we can not get any delivered. We wanted 500l delivered somewhere around Oxford. Only found one company that would supply HVO at all, and they wanted us to pick it up in 20l boxes at £2.32 a litre.
The world has gone totally mad.
As for electric it will be the future, however we need cold fusion to really happen first, so that there is a realistic provision of power, and then it may be steam power rather electricity as heat is always easier to generate. One can always put your name down for a few of these http://ecatorders.com/

or wait for one of these

https://brillouinenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Brillouin-Press-Release-ICCF24-7-20-22-Final.pdf take you pick!

For those that say they do not need full power for 2hrs or more, they obviously have not done many rivers, coming down the Thames or Trent punching the tide is full power for hours, alternatively going down the big ditch we ran basically flat out for over 6hrs all the way from Manchester to EP the last 4hrs below Latchford gets really boring in that respect.

Spey's got a 15hp Bolinder on a deep 71' hull IIRC, so a typical 60' hybrid/electric boat (with a good modern hull design) would need a little less than this, maybe about 12kW continuous drawn from the batteries. With a generator running and charging the batteries at 7kW this means a net drain (ignoring solar) of 5kW, which gives 7 hours running (100%-0% SoC) with a 35kWh LFP battery bank (all numbers taken from my boat). Flat out at 15kW/20hp output battery life would be about 4 hours.

 

So it is perfectly possible to meet pretty much all likely UK river requirements with a hybrid/electric boat, but *only* if properly designed and rated to sustain full power for several hours -- which costs even *more* money, which is why not many do it...

[PD1964]

2 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

For those that say they do not need full power for 2hrs or more, they obviously have not done many rivers, coming down the Thames or Trent punching the tide is full power for hours, alternatively going down the big ditch we ran basically flat out for over 6hrs all the way from Manchester to EP the last 4hrs below Latchford gets really boring in that respect.

 Never had to punch the tide on the Trent, as most of the time you run with it, I take it you were running down to Trent Falls when you were on the Trent with a full size boat?

Edited August 7, 2022 by PD1964

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Spey's got a 15hp Bolinder on a deep 71' hull IIRC, so a typical 60' hybrid/electric boat (with a good modern hull design) would need a little less than this, maybe about 12kW continuous drawn from the batteries. With a generator running and charging the batteries at 7kW this means a net drain (ignoring solar) of 5kW, which gives 7 hours running (100%-0% SoC) with a 35kWh LFP battery bank (all numbers taken from my boat). Flat out at 15kW/20hp output battery life would be about 4 hours.

 

So it is perfectly possible to meet pretty much all likely UK river requirements with a hybrid/electric boat, but *only* if properly designed and rated to sustain full power for several hours -- which costs even *more* money, which is why not many do it...

Just go for 30 foot plastic and an electric outboard, 2 boats sharing lock so half the water usage. Why 60 foot of steel at all? Things will have to change

Edited August 7, 2022 by ditchcrawler

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

Well our experiment with HVO has come to an abrupt end as we can not get any delivered. We wanted 500l delivered somewhere around Oxford. Only found one company that would supply HVO at all, and they wanted us to pick it up in 20l boxes at £2.32 a litre.
The world has gone totally mad.
As for electric it will be the future, however we need cold fusion to really happen first, so that there is a realistic provision of power, and then it may be steam power rather electricity as heat is always easier to generate. One can always put your name down for a few of these http://ecatorders.com/

or wait for one of these

https://brillouinenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Brillouin-Press-Release-ICCF24-7-20-22-Final.pdf take you pick!

For those that say they do not need full power for 2hrs or more, they obviously have not done many rivers, coming down the Thames or Trent punching the tide is full power for hours, alternatively going down the big ditch we ran basically flat out for over 6hrs all the way from Manchester to EP the last 4hrs below Latchford gets really boring in that respect.

Working boatmen worked it out that you go with the tide rather then push it! Worked for me these last 20 years

[Chris G]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Working boatmen worked it out that you go with the tide rather then push it! Worked for me these last 20 years

Have you done the Ribble Link?

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Chris G said:

Have you done the Ribble Link?

12 foot wide so won't fit, but if it had been designed right it wouldn't be an issue, I have gone around wallend both ways without pushing a tide

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, peterboat said:

12 foot wide so won't fit, but if it had been designed right it wouldn't be an issue, I have gone around wallend both ways without pushing a tide

You can’t do that on the Ribble Link, in both directions you have to do at least a couple of hours upstream against the current.

[peterboat]

Just now, IanD said:

You can’t do that on the Ribble Link, in both directions you have to do at least a couple of hours upstream against the current.

I know Tony dunkly explained if it had been designed correctly it could have been used more and pushing the tide wouldn't have been needed, it should have been wider to

[PD1964]

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

You can’t do that on the Ribble Link, in both directions you have to do at least a couple of hours upstream against the current.

 Sometimes you have to also push against the tide on the Trent, but not the full tide and not anything requiring full power for hours at a time.

Edited August 7, 2022 by PD1964

[IanD]

2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

 Sometimes you have to also push against the tide on the Trent, but not the full tide and not anything requiring full power for hours at a time.

Funny, I had to do just that upstream on the Trent after heavy rains -- at least two hours IIRC, but I wasn't timing it...

[PD1964]

9 hours ago, IanD said:

Funny, I had to do just that upstream on the Trent after heavy rains -- at least two hours IIRC, but I wasn't timing it...

 You quite often have to push against it an hour or so before going into Cromwell, if you run on a high tide from Keadby all the way. But no need for full power as if you did you would not get far, as there is not enough water to pull through the swim, so less revs/power is better, just like a shallow canal.

Edited August 8, 2022 by PD1964

[IanD]

2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

 You quite often have to push against it an hour or so before going into Cromwell, if you run on a high tide from Keadby all the way. But no need for full power as if you did you would not get far, as there is not enough water to pull through the swim, so less revs/power is better, just like a shallow canal.

 

"Full power" here does not mean full throttle on a modern diesel (typically 43hp/2800rpm for a Beta 43), this would definitely never be used for any length of time.

 

It means full continuous power on a hybrid/electric boat (or a boat like Spey) so maybe 15hp continuous. On a Beta 43 this would correspond to something like 2000rpm, which I was certainly doing upstream on the Trent after heavy rain for at least a couple of hours -- and I would expect to need at least the same (or maybe a bit more e.g. 15kW/20hp) on the Ribble Link, going by what other people have reported.

 

And it's fine to say "oh, working boatmen always went with the tide" -- well maybe they did (if the river was tidal), and maybe if there was a strong current (like after heavy rain) they just waited a couple of days. What's more likely is that they did what Spey did and just ran at "full power" for several hours, because time is money and they couldn't wait.

 

The same is still true sometimes for boaters today, not everyone can wait for time or tide or water levels to drop, and in this case we get back to the need to be able to run at "full power" (see above) for at least a couple of hours, and occasionally longer. Various posters have said that this would be an essential requirement for them to go electric, and I agree with them... 😉

Edited August 8, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

"Full power" here does not mean full throttle on a modern diesel (typically 43hp/2800rpm for a Beta 43), this would definitely never be used for any length of time.

 

It means full continuous power on a hybrid/electric boat (or a boat like Spey) so maybe 15hp continuous. On a Beta 43 this would correspond to something like 2000rpm, which I was certainly doing upstream on the Trent after heavy rain for at least a couple of hours -- and I would expect to need at least the same (or maybe a bit more e.g. 15kW/20hp) on the Ribble Link, going by what other people have reported.

 

And it's fine to say "oh, working boatmen always went with the tide" -- well maybe they did (if the river was tidal), and maybe if there was a strong current (like after heavy rain) they just waited a couple of days. What's more likely is that they did what Spey did and just ran at "full power" for several hours, because time is money and they couldn't wait.

 

The same is still true sometimes for boaters today, not everyone can wait for time or tide or water levels to drop, and in this case we get back to the need to be able to run at "full power" (see above) for at least a couple of hours, and occasionally longer. Various posters have said that this would be an essential requirement for them to go electric, and I agree with them... 😉

Twenty HP lister in a 100 ton boat push the tide? I have told you before that buttys used to go up and down the Trent using mud weights and anchors, just using the tide and current

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Twenty HP lister in a 100 ton boat push the tide? I have told you before that buttys used to go up and down the Trent using mud weights and anchors, just using the tide and current

Jolly good for them. I'm sure that everyone was happy when it took twice as long and cost twice as much to ship things around by doing this -- that's obviously why diesels never replaced horses for moving canal boats.

 

Oh, hang on... 😉

 

If you're happy not to have the capability of moving against a current as described, that's fine for you, nobody's forcing you to do it. Other people may -- and do -- think differently, which is what I said.

 

As so often, you are not everyone... 🙂

Edited August 8, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

Jolly good for them. I'm sure that everyone was happy when it took twice as long and cost twice as much to ship things around by doing this -- that's obviously why diesels never replaced horses for moving canal boats.

 

Oh, hang on... 😉

 

If you're happy not to have the capability of moving against a current as described, that's fine for you, nobody's forcing you to do it. Other people may -- and do -- think differently, which is what I said.

 

As so often, you are not everyone... 🙂

And neither are you😉

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

And neither are you😉

Never said I was, in fact I keep saying exactly the opposite... 😉

 

I said that there are several people on the forum who have clearly said that the ability to maintain "full power" for at least two hours (or more) for use on rivers is essential for them to consider switching to an electric/hybrid boat -- all you have to do is go back through the many electric boat threads, this is a comment that often recurs. I agree with them. If we want to see wh=idespread conversion to electric boats then people who want to be able to do this need to be satisfied.

 

You don't see the need for this since you rarely (never?) take your wideboat out under these conditions. That's fine, don't do this then.

 

But don't then come out as saying "This isn't needed because... [butties, tides...]", because yet again you're putting forward your opinion as if this is a universal fact. It isn't.

 

And neither is mine, but at least I admit it... 😉

Edited August 8, 2022 by IanD

[PD1964]

 When you get your finished boat, you could always do the test of running it at full electric power for at least a couple of hours in the water. That way you will have no worries when on the rivers, you could monitor the temperature and power consumption, battery performance and put your findings on here, then you can reassure the people that you say think this is an essential requirement.