Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel

[IanD]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I keep on telling you it's not a lynch system but you don't listen perhaps its deliberate and it suits your price argument 🤣

So given that you keep calling it a Lynch motor, regardless of where it comes from -- why don't you tell us what the actual cost is, built from new components not secondhand and with 15kW continuous output (so presumably two motors), so we can compare the cost to the others?

 

You're the one claiming it's cheaper... 😉

[peterboat]

40 minutes ago, IanD said:

So given that you keep calling it a Lynch motor, regardless of where it comes from -- why don't you tell us what the actual cost is, built from new components not secondhand and with 15kW continuous output (so presumably two motors), so we can compare the cost to the others?

 

You're the one claiming it's cheaper... 😉

I gave you the price of the 155R ages ago you just didn't read it 2k € it's the 30kw motor. A controller is under 500 squids for the 4QD. Cedric has just redesigned the motors to be brushless but still using a brushed DC controller, he is waiting to let me know the final price, it's under the Agni brand. 

My motor cost new under 900 squids and is a d135R rated at just under 15kw continuous at 84 volts, 700 for the gearbox pulleys and belt, my curtis controller was free, batteries 2.5k.

As I said before everything solar, mppt, motor, genny, cables,reverse contactor and odds and soda under 10k.

The screenshot is LMC not Agni but it's close enough 

Edited July 31, 2022 by peterboat

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, peterboat said:

The screenshot is LMC not Agni but it's close enough 

 

Except that one appears to have a non-wound rotor, a wound stator, and no sign of brushes, so nothing like the Agni patent thing I found. I think that you claim your system has brushes and the patent showed 8 brushes.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Except that one appears to have a non-wound rotor, a wound stator, and no sign of brushes, so nothing like the Agni patent thing I found. I think that you claim your system has brushes and the patent showed 8 brushes.

I have brushes in my motor Tony, the new motors which I am awaiting a price for arnt out yet.

Cedric has lots of motor patents he was sort of conned by Trevor Lee's who owns LMC , it's all on Wikipedia, but that doesn't take away that my motor running at 72 volts nominal, produces nearly 15kw continuous, it probably does because Cedric tuned it up for me and its 30 kws peak. As I linked the New scientist article thy ran a 15m boat for 24 hours at fast speeds 

[PD1964]

13 hours ago, IanD said:

As a cheap DIY solution it's OK for pootling around like you do -- it's fine if you're happy with that, but please stop claiming that it can meet the needs of boaters looking for a "go-anywhere" solution, unless you (or your mate James) have *actual evidence* that it can sustain full power for several hours -- which is what many people have said they would need to be sure of to switch to an electric boat.

.. 😉

 Where would you need to use full power for several hours?
 I’ve never had to use my engine on full power for several hours on any of the canals or tidal rivers. If any boater has to use full power on the inland waterways for several hours, they obviously haven’t got the correct engine fitted or it’s massively under proped. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by PD1964

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 Where would you need to use full power for several hours?
 I’ve never had to use my engine on full power for several hours on any of the canals or tidal rivers. If any boater has to use full power for several hours, they obviously haven’t got the correct engine fitted or it’s massively under proped. 

Or they aren't good boaters and are trying to push the tide instead of going with it?

I travel around at 3mph on 4 hp because it suits me, but we have seen the racing narrowboats with huge bow waves destroying the banks haven't we?

[Tony Brooks]

51 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have brushes in my motor Tony, the new motors which I am awaiting a price for arnt out yet.

Cedric has lots of motor patents he was sort of conned by Trevor Lee's who owns LMC , it's all on Wikipedia, but that doesn't take away that my motor running at 72 volts nominal, produces nearly 15kw continuous, it probably does because Cedric tuned it up for me and its 30 kws peak. As I linked the New scientist article thy ran a 15m boat for 24 hours at fast speeds 

 

Look, I am getting a bit tired of this. The speedboat may have run for 24 hours at fast speed but I saw no details of nay extra cooling precautions and the 24 hours and high speed just means it had a battery bank large enough to sustain that. It says nothing about motor efficiency. It could have been only 50% efficient given a large enough battery bank and adequate cooling. In any case 30-year-old technology really should not be used in a discussion about what is available today and their relative efficiencies in 2022.

 

I note that you have yet to support your assertions about price by producing the 2022 or even 2021 pricing for your type of system using new components, so it is directly comparable with Ian's. I appreciate that is time-consuming, and you may not wish to devote the time required, but until someone does your claim of price advantages just an unsubstantiated claim. A bit like the claim that the Lynch style motors run cool, even though you seem to think you need a bilge blower. I am not saying any of your claims are incorrect, just that they do not seem to have been substantiated and my understanding of physics calls some into question.

[Ronaldo47]

The description and drawings of a patent, the "embodiments of the invention", are normally just examples of ways of carrying out the invention. If the patent attorney who drafts the application does a proper job, the claims of a patent will normally cover other arrangements.  

 

The embodiment of Hedy Lamarr & George Antheil's long overlooked  1940's  patent for a jamming-proof radio communication system, used synchronised player piano mechanisms, yet its claims would cover the spread spectrum technology used in today's mobile phone network if it were still in force. Probably no-one in authority took it seriously, partly  because it used player piano  mechanisms, and partly because of the notoriety of its inventors, Hedy being known at the time as "The ecstacy girl" from, when a teenager,  having appeared naked in the then-notorious  Hungarian film "Ecstacy" having a (simulated)  orgasm, and George for being an avant-guarde composer of decidedly off-beat musical compositions (Google "Ballet Mechanique"). 

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 Where would you need to use full power for several hours?
 I’ve never had to use my engine on full power for several hours on any of the canals or tidal rivers. If any boater has to use full power on the inland waterways for several hours, they obviously haven’t got the correct engine fitted or it’s massively under proped. 

 

If underpropped it will not be running at full power, but will be running at full speed. The engine size thing plus efficiency is what this is all about. Peter seems to be claiming his system is efficient enough to be the solution for all boaters while Ian thinks it is not. Remember the ability to for an electric motor to run at any speed for a given time largely depends on its fuel tank size - that is battery capacity. A lower efficiency can easily be overcome by a larger battery capacity.

[dmr]

20 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 Where would you need to use full power for several hours?
 I’ve never had to use my engine on full power for several hours on any of the canals or tidal rivers. If any boater has to use full power on the inland waterways for several hours, they obviously haven’t got the correct engine fitted or it’s massively under proped. 

 

To be pedantic you cant get full power out of an over-propped engine 😀

 

edit   oops  sorry, must read more carefully before replying.

Edited August 1, 2022 by dmr

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, dmr said:

 

To be pedantic you cant get full power out of an over-propped engine 😀

Agreed and even with the correct prop for a displacement boat as well. Props use torque, power uses torque and RPM, and torque starts to drop before maximum power (from the rpm) is reached.

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If underpropped it will not be running at full power, but will be running at full speed. The engine size thing plus efficiency is what this is all about. Peter seems to be claiming his system is efficient enough to be the solution for all boaters while Ian thinks it is not. Remember the ability to for an electric motor to run at any speed for a given time largely depends on its fuel tank size - that is battery capacity. A lower efficiency can easily be overcome by a larger battery capacity.

It's been posted by Ian that running at normal speeds its 93% efficient, PWM speed controller is up to 90% and as you aren't changing DC to AC no losses there. Just because you can't understand how Cedric has done it doesn't mean he hasn't, it only when its flat out that the motor goes down to 83% efficient! It creates 15kw continuous and I have posted prices. 

How about we do it another way? All diesels that cant be 49% efficient in boats at normal operating speeds are scrapped? In one stroke all diesel boats engines will be gone! 

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It's been posted by Ian that running at normal speeds its 93% efficient, PWM speed controller is up to 90% and as you aren't changing DC to AC no losses there. Just because you can't understand how Cedric has done it doesn't mean he hasn't, it only when its flat out that the motor goes down to 83% efficient! It creates 15kw continuous and I have posted prices. 

How about we do it another way? All diesels that cant be 49% efficient in boats at normal operating speeds are scrapped? In one stroke all diesel boats engines will be gone! 

So let's get down to the nitty-gritty...

 

Going by the costs you quoted, the Lynch DC motor plus pulleys and mounting hardware costs about the same as the Engiro PMAC motor. You got a "free" Curtis controller but normal mortals would have to buy one, and at a given power level DC and PMAC controllers cost the same. So, no cost saving then -- agreed?

 

Now we have two choices.

 

The first is a noisy geared air-cooled motor spinning at 3500rpm and running off 72V or 84V, which is incompatible with common 48V inverter/chargers (e.g. Victron) used to generate domestic power. At full power it dumps 3kW of heat into the engine room which needs a noisy bilge blower to keep it cool. And you still haven't provided an accurate data sheet showing it can run at 15kW sustained -- but even if it can, that just removes one negative point.

 

The second is a quiet direct-drive water-cooled motor which runs at 1100rpm from 48V, consumes 10% less power from the batteries at full power, can put out 15kW continuously, doesn't need a bilge blower to keep it cool -- oh yes, and it  costs the same.

 

Nobody apart from you thinks the first one is a better solution.

 

The answer to all the "who needs full power (15kW) for 2 hours" questions can be seen in every single thread about electric boats, where any inability to do this is always given as a big reason not to have one.

 

Saying "I never run my diesel at full power for hours" is missing the point; yes nobody runs a 50hp diesel at full power for two hours or more, but if you look at rpm they do run at 20hp or so (about 2000rpm if correctly propped) for that long when going upstream, I've certainly done that on the Trent and it's a requirement for the Ribble Link.

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

Nobody apart from you thinks the first one is a better solution.

 

 

Don't think that applies to me. I am ambivalent and think Peter's solution may well be ideal for some boater while yours mau suit others.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

Now we have two choices.

 

The first is a noisy geared air-cooled motor spinning at 3500rpm and running off 72V or 84V, which is incompatible with common 48V inverter/chargers (e.g. Victron) used to generate domestic power. At full power it dumps 3kW of heat into the engine room which needs a noisy bilge blower to keep it cool. And you still haven't provided an accurate data sheet showing it can run at 15kW sustained -- but even if it can, that just removes one negative point.

 

The second is a quiet direct-drive water-cooled motor which runs at 1100rpm from 48V, consumes 10% less power from the batteries at full power, can put out 15kW continuously, doesn't need a bilge blower to keep it cool -- oh yes, and it  costs the same.

 

 

Surely for you to have 'two choices' there must be three options / alternatives - you have only listed two options / alternatives therefore there is only a 'choice' of A or B (not two choices)

 

(There is of course the other 'choice' - do nothing, but you have not suggested that.)

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

So let's get down to the nitty-gritty...

 

Going by the costs you quoted, the Lynch DC motor plus pulleys and mounting hardware costs about the same as the Engiro PMAC motor. You got a "free" Curtis controller but normal mortals would have to buy one, and at a given power level DC and PMAC controllers cost the same. So, no cost saving then -- agreed?

 

Now we have two choices.

 

The first is a noisy geared air-cooled motor spinning at 3500rpm and running off 72V or 84V, which is incompatible with common 48V inverter/chargers (e.g. Victron) used to generate domestic power. At full power it dumps 3kW of heat into the engine room which needs a noisy bilge blower to keep it cool. And you still haven't provided an accurate data sheet showing it can run at 15kW sustained -- but even if it can, that just removes one negative point.

 

The second is a quiet direct-drive water-cooled motor which runs at 1100rpm from 48V, consumes 10% less power from the batteries at full power, can put out 15kW continuously, doesn't need a bilge blower to keep it cool -- oh yes, and it  costs the same.

 

Nobody apart from you thinks the first one is a better solution.

 

The answer to all the "who needs full power (15kW) for 2 hours" questions can be seen in every single thread about electric boats, where any inability to do this is always given as a big reason not to have one.

 

Saying "I never run my diesel at full power for hours" is missing the point; yes nobody runs a 50hp diesel at full power for two hours or more, but if you look at rpm they do run at 20hp or so (about 2000rpm if correctly propped) for that long when going upstream, I've certainly done that on the Trent and it's a requirement for the Ribble Link.

From your own post in 2021 your motor plus other stuff is over 5k my setup is 2075, we would both have other costs associated with watercooling and air cooling plus cables I think Agni would easily be half the price. Now there are cheaper PMAC systems I saw them at Crick but again don't know what they come with or indeed how powerful they are.

I am going to buy from Cedric one of his brushless powerful motors so when that happens I will be able to give costs of the new motors 

[jupiter1124]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Peter's solution may well be ideal for some boater while yours mau suit others.

Which boaters want - for the same cost - a less efficient motor? Especially when that lost energy is going into noise and heat (and not the good kind of calorifier heating heat).

 

Having quietly followed this thread for awhile I think the only pro to the "lynch style" air cooled motors is simplicity (no water cooling) and possibly robustness, if it is true that the permanent magnets of the PMAC motors are liable to be destroyed by excess heat (e.g. in the event of a cooling system failure).

 

Am i right in saying that to get proper efficiency and power out of these motors you really need a dangerous higher voltage DC system (72V, 96V or even all the way up to 400V DC) BUT in order to do this you need to DIY it because no sensible installer would risk the liability / be bothered to get the right ticket?

 

Can you use the same motors just with a higher voltage or do you specifically need to buy high voltage electric motors?

[Tony Brooks]

29 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

Which boaters want - for the same cost - a less efficient motor? Especially when that lost energy is going into noise and heat (and not the good kind of calorifier heating heat).

 

Having quietly followed this thread for awhile I think the only pro to the "lynch style" air cooled motors is simplicity (no water cooling) and possibly robustness, if it is true that the permanent magnets of the PMAC motors are liable to be destroyed by excess heat (e.g. in the event of a cooling system failure).

 

Am i right in saying that to get proper efficiency and power out of these motors you really need a dangerous higher voltage DC system (72V, 96V or even all the way up to 400V DC) BUT in order to do this you need to DIY it because no sensible installer would risk the liability / be bothered to get the right ticket?

 

Can you use the same motors just with a higher voltage or do you specifically need to buy high voltage electric motors?

 

I strongly suspect that the motor running voltage is set by the controller rather than the supply. I am sure they do not use resistance type controllers these days for efficiency reasons so both the AC and DC probably pulse the battery power to the motor in one way or another. The mark space ratio of the pulses defining the average voltage.

[PD1964]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 Saying "I never run my diesel at full power for hours" is missing the point; yes nobody runs a 50hp diesel at full power for two hours or more, but if you look at rpm they do run at 20hp or so (about 2000rpm if correctly propped) for that long when going upstream, I've certainly done that on the Trent and it's a requirement for the Ribble Link.

But your saying a big factor why people are put off be electric is the inability to run at full power for a few hours, I’m saying there is no requirement on any canal or tidal river to do this and you’ve just said also that nobody runs a 50hp diesel at full power for 2 hours or more.

  So is there something different with electric motor’’s that you would need to run on full power/revs for a few hours or more??

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I strongly suspect that the motor running voltage is set by the controller rather than the supply. I am sure they do not use resistance type controllers these days for efficiency reasons so both the AC and DC probably pulse the battery power to the motor in one way or another. The mark space ratio of the pulses defining the average voltage.

Pulse wave modulation Tony nowadays 

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

I'm saying there is no requirement on any canal or tidal river to do this and you’ve just said also that nobody runs a 50hp diesel at full power for 2 hours or more

Try going out of Bow down the Thames to the Medway, you have to punch the tide for an hour or more in order to make the tide window for the rest of the trip. If you have to do the trip out of Limehouse it's 3 hrs or more against what can be a 4knot tide

 

Or try a trip upstream on any river when there is a bit of fresh on. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Loddon

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, jupiter1124 said:

Which boaters want - for the same cost - a less efficient motor? Especially when that lost energy is going into noise and heat (and not the good kind of calorifier heating heat).

 

Having quietly followed this thread for awhile I think the only pro to the "lynch style" air cooled motors is simplicity (no water cooling) and possibly robustness, if it is true that the permanent magnets of the PMAC motors are liable to be destroyed by excess heat (e.g. in the event of a cooling system failure).

 

Am i right in saying that to get proper efficiency and power out of these motors you really need a dangerous higher voltage DC system (72V, 96V or even all the way up to 400V DC) BUT in order to do this you need to DIY it because no sensible installer would risk the liability / be bothered to get the right ticket?

 

Can you use the same motors just with a higher voltage or do you specifically need to buy high voltage electric motors?

My system is a 72 volt, it really runs at up to 84 volts, my batteries are in 2 36 volts banks in battery boxes with lids. All terminals have shrink wrapping on them, I have a manual disconnect and an electric one. The controller by pulses of electric control the speed of the motor  its relatively simple as its DC, you can't actually touch anything in normal operation, in the dashboard it's 24 volts the high voltage is kept downstairs in the engine room. At normal running the motor is 92 % efficient so very little heat is made, also noise in mine is minimal the belt drive is quiet but I do have quality belt. As I have said before I did everything solar, batteries, motors, controllers, genny for under 10k, some secondhand some new, as I wasn't in a hurry bargains always come up

9 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Try going out of Bow down the Thames to the Medway, you have to punch the tide for an hour or more in order to make the tide window for the rest of the trip. If you have to do the trip out of Limehouse it's 3 hrs or more against what can be a 4knot tide

 

Or try a trip upstream on any river when there is a bit of fresh on. 

We do Julian we are both on a navigation so current strong or weak is the norm for us.

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Try going out of Bow down the Thames to the Medway, you have to punch the tide for an hour or more in order to make the tide window for the rest of the trip. If you have to do the trip out of Limehouse it's 3 hrs or more against what can be a 4knot tide

 

Or try a trip upstream on any river when there is a bit of fresh on. 

How many times would your average narrowboater on the canal system do that then, let me guess never. Maybe a once in a while London thing.

  I’m up and down the Trent quite often and have never needed full power, only time I would use full revs is a quick blast to kick the back end around for the tidal locks.

  I would say people were put off electric engines/boats a few years ago by the inability to run for a few hours or more before the requirement to charge. But to say now they are put off electric engines/boats by the inability to run on full power for a few hours or more is daft, as it just doesn’t happen, no matter what engine you have.

  

Edited August 1, 2022 by PD1964

[jupiter1124]

I think Ian's point is that most boaters are put off the idea of electric because they can't do everything a diesel can do unless you overspec them for general use. And he's trying valiantly to dispel that myth by showing that the latest technology can handle it with high efficiency.

 

But it's true that most narrowboaters never need full power, and for the few that do it sounds as if 15kW is still possible out of either motor, just that it is less efficient out of the Lynch one, therefore requiring more batteries if you ever do intend to punch the tide or ride full power up a strong river.

 

And it seems both agree that at normal operating power they are similar efficiency.

So it really comes down to the cost. Peter says he'll post the cost of his new brushless motor. If this is in fact significantly cheaper than Ian's PMAC one, then yes it would be an option to cut a corner and save some money.

 

If it turns out to be a similar price or if the PMAC is cheaper, then no one sensible would want the Lynch one even if they never intend to use full power.

Have I got that about right?

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, jupiter1124 said:

Have I got that about right?

 

Probably but don't expect both protagonists to agree.