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Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel


Bosley Dave

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Bristol manages it

Totally different then fitting out the whole canal system, that has been discussed in depth in a previous thread.

  Who runs the Bristol elect points you mention? 

Edited by PD1964
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Near us there are a couple of shore power points on The Kiln pontoon, plus a couple more at Cromwell.  

When we visit West Stockwith there are plenty of unused shore power sockets but as visitors we are not allowed to use them.

It's not like we expect the electricity to be free issue.

 

 

 

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I moored up at the Friars Mill visitor moorings in Leicester recently which have electricity bollards, but they werent working. Can't say I have much faith that cart could manage to manage a networkwide shore power network.

In fairness I did get free electricity at both Llangollen basin and Liverpool salthouse docks, to credit where credit is due.

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On 22/07/2022 at 23:26, PD1964 said:

So what engine are you using? Something like the Beta hybrid???

No, it's a series hybrid (what people often call an "electric boat") -- 9kW diesel generator, 48V 700Ah (35kWh) LFP battery bank, 15kW PMAC motor/controller, 10kW inverter/charger, 2kW of solar. No gas, cooking is electric. Heating is a diesel (hopefully HVO) pressure-jet boiler for the time being, suitable heat-pumps aren't available yet.

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4 hours ago, IanD said:

No, it's a series hybrid (what people often call an "electric boat") -- 9kW diesel generator, 48V 700Ah (35kWh) LFP battery bank, 15kW PMAC motor/controller, 10kW inverter/charger, 2kW of solar. No gas, cooking is electric. Heating is a diesel (hopefully HVO) pressure-jet boiler for the time being, suitable heat-pumps aren't available yet.

So an electric boat with a generator to charge the batteries when there’s not enough solar, like the normal electric boats Finesse are building which everyone just calls an electric boat as you say. Fitted with one of these motors:

6A296706-C647-48E8-A32D-86232F721EEA.jpeg.9ca4891e99f45a3d6590f873b641a945.jpeg
 

and not what most people regard/know as hybrid, one of these:

DCE684CA-E489-4965-BD1F-CB480BEFBA17.jpeg.0699c06d1d5f47b68951c11ce372da3f.jpeg

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

So an electric boat with a generator to charge the batteries when there’s not enough solar, like the normal electric boats Finesse are building which everyone just calls an electric boat as you say. Fitted with one of these motors:

6A296706-C647-48E8-A32D-86232F721EEA.jpeg.9ca4891e99f45a3d6590f873b641a945.jpeg
 

and not what most people regard/know as hybrid, one of these:

DCE684CA-E489-4965-BD1F-CB480BEFBA17.jpeg.0699c06d1d5f47b68951c11ce372da3f.jpeg

 

 

 

 

What Finesse build -- and are doing for me -- are series hybrids because there's a diesel generator on board.

 

It's the correct term, it's what they call them -- or "electric propulsion", which is also correct. The energy source can be solar, or plug-in, or the generator.

 

The one you showed is a parallel hybrid.

 

Electric boats (like on the Mon) don't have a generator on board and rely on solar and plug-in power.

Edited by IanD
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9 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

What Finesse build -- and are doing for me -- are series hybrids because there's a diesel generator on board.

 

It's the correct term, it's what they call them -- or "electric propulsion", which is also correct.

 

The one you showed is a parallel hybrid.

 

Electric boats (like on the Mon) don't have a generator on board and rely on solar and plug-in power.

Yes but all of Finesse electric boats have a generator, just their standard fit out from what I’ve seen. I just call them electric like most. When you say hybrid people imagine an engine like the Beta above.

  Can the electric motor be run direct from an output on the generator bypassing the batteries? Or is it only configured to charge/go through the battery bank?

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1 minute ago, PD1964 said:

Yes but all of Finesse electric boats have a generator, just their standard fit out from what I’ve seen. I just call them electric like most. When you say hybrid people imagine an engine like the Beta above.

  Can the electric motor be run direct from an output on the generator bypassing the batteries? Or is it only configured to charge/go through the battery bank?

The motor/controller are 48V DC and run off the batteries. The 9kW generator is 230Vac and connects to the 8kW inverter/charger, which can charge the batteries at 140A (7kW) when the generator is running with 2kW left over for mains -- if the motor is taking 3kW then 4kW charges the batteries.

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

This one was floating around Birmingham Pink Narrowboat (pink-narrowboat.com)

Hmm, some of those design choices are not what I'd have made...

 

I wonder how they're going to dispose of their composting toilet waste, especially if cruising around -- or even when moored?

 

Underfloor heating? Many have tried on boats, few have succeeded...

 

Stern thruster? Don't they have a rudder?

 

That Bell Marine motor is ludicrously expensive, and ends up needing an "egg-whisk" prop due to high rpm (yes I looked at it...)

 

Same for the Fischer-Panda generator, and being DC on a boat heavily reliant on having 230Vac available means any inverter problem means no power (can be bypassed with AC generator)

 

But I hope it all works for them... 🙂

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So just goes through the 10Kw Victron multiplus basically. Just thought there may be some electrical cubbins fitted, so that the generator could run the motor without using the battery recharge cycle, maybe one day👍

  

35 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

This one was floating around Birmingham Pink Narrowboat (pink-narrowboat.com)

I think it was at the Crick show this year or some similar ugly boat.

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1 minute ago, PD1964 said:

So just goes through the 10Kw Victron multiplus basically. Just thought there may be some electrical cubbins fitted, so that the generator could run the motor without using the battery recharge cycle, maybe one day👍

  

 

That is not allowed as if the generator could be directly connected to the prop / gear box then it becomes diesel powered.

The generator MUST no be able to directly propel the boat.

 

Diesel must be converted to electricity to charge the batteries which in turn must be used to turn the shaft (power losses at every stage), but hey-ho, it leccy innit !

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21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That is not allowed as if the generator could be directly connected to the prop / gear box then it becomes diesel powered.

The generator MUST no be able to directly propel the boat.

 

Diesel must be converted to electricity to charge the batteries which in turn must be used to turn the shaft (power losses at every stage), but hey-ho, it leccy innit !

I’m talking about maybe some form of power cord from the generator to a type of step down AC to DC transformer, then directly to the electric controller/motor, bypassing the 10Kw Multiplus inverter/batteries.

Edited by PD1964
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13 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I’m talking about maybe some form of power cord from the generator to a transformer, then directly to the electric controller/motor, bypassing the 10Kw Multiplus inverter/batteries.

The issue is the generator produces more power than the motor uses under most cruising conditions so it charges the batteries and drives the motor at the same time plus other 230 volt devices onboard. Mine does the same, however when I passed you Steve and Lou yesterday the sun was shining so solar was doing its stuff and I was cruising silently. Thank you again for doing the lock it helped us out 

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14 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 when I passed you Steve and Lou yesterday the sun was shining so solar was doing its stuff and I was cruising silently. Thank you again for doing the lock it helped us out 

Suns always shining when out on the boats, very interesting guy, learning the history of Waddingtons and their boats, only a few left in the yard now though, have a good night👍

Edited by PD1964
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7 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Suns always shining when out on the boats, very interesting guy, learning the history of Waddingtons and their boats, only a few left in the yard now though, have a good night👍

He is their is a video online about his dad Victor well worth watching. I watched Lonsdale depart last month looking very nice 

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2 hours ago, PD1964 said:

I’m talking about maybe some form of power cord from the generator to a type of step down AC to DC transformer, then directly to the electric controller/motor, bypassing the 10Kw Multiplus inverter/batteries.

Doesn't work like that. The "step down AC to DC converter" *is* the Multiplus (actually a Quattro, AC inputs from generator and shore).

 

The motor itself doesn't actually run from either 48V DC or 230Vac, the controller takes in DC and produces variable-frequency 3-phase AC which drives the PMAC motor.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That is not allowed as if the generator could be directly connected to the prop / gear box then it becomes diesel powered.

The generator MUST no be able to directly propel the boat.

With a wire from the generator connected to the same battery bank terminal as the wire leading to the motor controller, you are surely always going to have the possibility of the generator current feeding directly to the motor, with the battery taking the surplus current or making up the shortfall.

Or are you suggesting you need some deliberate separation such as 2 battery banks with the generator charging one and the motor running off the other, with periodic swapping of the connections?

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31 minutes ago, David Mack said:

With a wire from the generator connected to the same battery bank terminal as the wire leading to the motor controller, you are surely always going to have the possibility of the generator current feeding directly to the motor, with the battery taking the surplus current or making up the shortfall.

Or are you suggesting you need some deliberate separation such as 2 battery banks with the generator charging one and the motor running off the other, with periodic swapping of the connections?

 

I think I read that there must be 'no direct connection', but obviously whilst you could argue that the wire from the generator to the battery could be on the same terminal as the one from the battery to the controller where it is then converted to 3-phase, I'd say it is not a direct connection, the motor does not run directly off the battery (but it doesn't matter what I think).

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think I read that there must be 'no direct connection', but obviously whilst you could argue that the wire from the generator to the battery could be on the same terminal as the one from the battery to the controller where it is then converted to 3-phase, I'd say it is not a direct connection, the motor does not run directly off the battery (but it doesn't matter what I think).

It's a difficult one Alan, the other day my bank voltage was 78. Something volts, genny started voltage 80 volts move off with genny and motor running 79. something volts. In theory I am running on genny plus solar so is it a direct connection or not?

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11 hours ago, IanD said:

Doesn't work like that. The "step down AC to DC converter" *is* the Multiplus (actually a Quattro, AC inputs from generator and shore).

 

The motor itself doesn't actually run from either 48V DC or 230Vac, the controller takes in DC and produces variable-frequency 3-phase AC which drives the PMAC motor.

Just thought there may be some new high tech to bypass the Batteries when running Generator, obviously not. So just a normal inbuilt 240v generator set up, just a a bit bigger then your average little whisper type.

  I take it there must be a minimum volt DC (48v?) that needs to go into the controller?

Edited by PD1964
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26 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Just thought there may be some new high tech to bypass the Batteries when running Generator, obviously not. So just a normal inbuilt 240v generator set up, just a a bit bigger then your little whisper type.

Correct, generator size is only set by how fast you want to be able to charge the batteries. A bigger generator means shorter running time. In my case a Quattro 48/10000 can charge the batteries at 140A maximum (0.2C) which is 7kW, this nicely fits with the peak efficiency point of the 9kVA generator, leaving a couple of kW spare to run 230Vac loads while still charging at full rate. 7kW is also the maximum power from a 30A shoreline.

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19 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That is not allowed as if the generator could be directly connected to the prop / gear box then it becomes diesel powered.

The generator MUST no be able to directly propel the boat.

 

Diesel must be converted to electricity to charge the batteries which in turn must be used to turn the shaft (power losses at every stage), but hey-ho, it leccy innit !

Not that I would wish to do so - but why is a direct connection not allowed?

 

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5 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Not that I would wish to do so - but why is a direct connection not allowed?

 

 

Physically there is nothing stopping you, but 'technically' to be a 'zero emission propulson' there must be an intermediary stage between the diesel powered generator (dirty smelly emission producing lump of metal) and the actual drive shaft.

 

Even C&RTs licence T&Cs say that to get the 25% discount the electic motor must be the sole means of powering the boat. 

 

25% discount if the Boat has an electric motor as its sole means of propulsion

 

Now if the generator connects directly to the motor and not via all the other gubbins of batteries and controllers etc, is the electric motor still the sole means of propulsion ?

If that is the case you could have your prop-shaft turned by a 12v electric motor connected to the alternator and keep your smelly dirty engine.

 

O what fun can be had with badly written rules.

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21 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Not that I would wish to do so - but why is a direct connection not allowed?

 

He thinks he read it somewhere, the only thing that I can think of is a generator may be classed as a Diesel engine so could invalidate the electric boat license as would need to be running when the boat is under propulsion. With it topping up a battery bank it hasn’t???

  I’m sure @IanD will know as he would of thoroughly researched.

Edited by PD1964
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