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Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel


Bosley Dave

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From some of the earlier comments in this discussion (notably from Up-Side-Down, 13th September) and from the IWA's report , it seems that HVO is proving to be a winner in engines of all ages.  I haven't seen Listers mentioned, but Bolinders and others have apparently trialled it with success, as well as the newer generations of engine.

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Yes I had followed that. I expect results for a correctly functioning Lister would be similarly promising; we’ll see when they try it out in one. My concern is about the situation we’ve just had, where diesel was leaking into the oil, in our case from the injectors, if I understood it right.

 

With the engine then being lubricated by oil mixed with fuel, wouldn’t using HVO have a risk of engine seizure in a case where, unknown to the owner, this was happening? Obviously if you have a problem you should fix it but I’m talking about idiots like me who only half understand what’s happening down there. Oil could be diluting for some time before you’re aware of it,  and with HVO it would be becoming less and less viscous(?).

 

Don’t get me wrong, I want this to work 

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1 hour ago, droshky said:

Yes I had followed that. I expect results for a correctly functioning Lister would be similarly promising; we’ll see when they try it out in one. My concern is about the situation we’ve just had, where diesel was leaking into the oil, in our case from the injectors, if I understood it right.

 

With the engine then being lubricated by oil mixed with fuel, wouldn’t using HVO have a risk of engine seizure in a case where, unknown to the owner, this was happening? Obviously if you have a problem you should fix it but I’m talking about idiots like me who only half understand what’s happening down there. Oil could be diluting for some time before you’re aware of it,  and with HVO it would be becoming less and less viscous(?).

 

Don’t get me wrong, I want this to work 

 

Exactly as it would and does with ordinary diesel. As I see it, it is  simply not an issue and it is one that switched on air cooled Lister owners have been guarding against for well over 50 years.

 

The normal cause of the dilution is loose unions or snapped pipes and occasionally a looses screw in the injector pump, Very rarely an injector. HVO would not make this more or less likely. Owners who who do not check the oil level every day make it much more likely to cause a problem but luckily the engines usually start to smoke ,smell and refuse to idle when hot before much, if any, permanent damage is done.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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30 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

TVO would not make this more or less likely.

 

That takes me back 50-60 years.

 

TVO - Tractor Vapourising Oil.

 

Twin tank tractor, start it on petrol and get it up to temperature then switch tanks over to the TVO.

 

When TVO was withdrawn in 1974 we had to brew our own using petrol and kerosene.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That takes me back 50-60 years.

 

TVO - Tractor Vapourising Oil.

 

Twin tank tractor, start it on petrol and get it up to temperature then switch tanks over to the TVO.

 

When TVO was withdrawn in 1974 we had to brew our own using petrol and kerosene.

 

Thanks Alan, now edited. My excuse is that I looked at the small letters in the navigation bar and misread HVO.

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54 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That takes me back 50-60 years.

 

TVO - Tractor Vapourising Oil.

 

Twin tank tractor, start it on petrol and get it up to temperature then switch tanks over to the TVO.

 

When TVO was withdrawn in 1974 we had to brew our own using petrol and kerosene.

Remember TVO but wasn't involved in using any that late on, mine memories are back in the late 50s early 60s as a school kid watching them start tractors and the switching tanks.

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13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Remember TVO but wasn't involved in using any that late on, mine memories are back in the late 50s early 60s as a school kid watching them start tractors and the switching tanks.

 

It was about 60 years ago (in the 60's) that we were using it regularly, but when it was stopped we still had the TVO tractor and it made sense to brew our own rather than run it on 100% petrol as it ran 'very hot' (as it should do to vapourise the TVO) but it was not possible to run it for hours on petrol alone.

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Any old diesel engine runs happily on aviation turbine fuel......AFIK its thinner than either diesel or kerosine .....those with airport access have used it for years in trucks and cars until the recent govt crackdown on untaxed fuels.......Military engines specify it as a fuel option.

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3 hours ago, john.k said:

Any old diesel engine runs happily on aviation turbine fuel......AFIK its thinner than either diesel or kerosine .....those with airport access have used it for years in trucks and cars until the recent govt crackdown on untaxed fuels.......Military engines specify it as a fuel option.

And it will also wear the pumps and injectors much faster, as to the best of my knowledge AVGAS doesn't have the lubrication additives that diesel has.

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6 hours ago, john.k said:

Any old diesel engine runs happily on aviation turbine fuel......AFIK its thinner than either diesel or kerosine .....those with airport access have used it for years in trucks and cars until the recent govt crackdown on untaxed fuels.......Military engines specify it as a fuel option.

I thought it  (jet A1) was just kerosene / parafin.   It certainly looks smells like it when you get near a jet   

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12 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

I thought it  (jet A1) was just kerosene / parafin.   It certainly looks smells like it when you get near a jet   

I thought it was as well, just add 2 stroke oil for lube plenty on internet about amounts,  Bedford mos used to be multi fuel engines but Dafs that replaced them weren't and I know this for a fact 😟

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  • 2 weeks later...
Just now, captain birdseye said:

They are reporting quieter cleaning running with better economy as well. They did do some tests with a small tank before going at it great guns

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4 minutes ago, captain birdseye said:

This makes good reading

An English Heritage Boat: The Showpiece for HVO Fuel | Crown Oil

Toms comments about the trial seem to show he is more than satisfied with the results of the trial and the bolinder runs better on HVO than on red 

Shame the online quote bit at the bottom of that article won't let you get a quote for less than 500 litres. So not much use for an individual boater.

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29 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Shame the online quote bit at the bottom of that article won't let you get a quote for less than 500 litres. So not much use for an individual boater.

205 litres is the minimum quantity Crown Oil will supply which is a drum on a pallet. Several drums fit on a pallet so carriage remains the same. Next up is a 1000 litre IBC which incurs a single pallet charge. Both these are available inside 24 hours. Otherwise it's down to Green Biofuels (GBF Ltd) who supply HVO in 20 litre fuel boxes amongst other quantities .... but not a cheap way to go.

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18 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

205 litres is the minimum quantity Crown Oil will supply which is a drum on a pallet. Several drums fit on a pallet so carriage remains the same. Next up is a 1000 litre IBC which incurs a single pallet charge.

Which is fine if you have somewhere to store the drums. Not sure you can legally store fuel in an IBC. And to transfer the fuel to the boat you either need a waterside storage location, or you are limited to carrying it in containers of no more than 60 litres - in practice jerry cans may be more practical. So hardly convenient, and with higher risk of spillage compared with conventional refuelling.

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On 31/10/2021 at 23:59, Dave Taylor said:

From some of the earlier comments in this discussion (notably from Up-Side-Down, 13th September) and from the IWA's report , it seems that HVO is proving to be a winner in engines of all ages.  I haven't seen Listers mentioned, but Bolinders and others have apparently trialled it with success, as well as the newer generations of engine.

Sorry, a wee bit behind due to my exertions locking for the HVO-fuelled nb Spey run Manchester to London!

 

One of the members of my IWA HVO sub-group is John Spencer, CEO of GPS Marine who (amongst other things) operate the barges and tugs taking the spoil away from the Thames Tideway Tunnel, returning with the concrete lining ring segments. His vessels were the first to move wholesale over to HVO use on the Thames and their ancillary engines span a wide range of Lister units similar to engines providing propulsion on the inland waterways. Across the board, all the power plants on his wide range of vessels are very happy running on HVO which is why I've not felt a need to specifically include listers in the IWA HVO trials so far.

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16 hours ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

For what it's worth, we've just switched over our tank to HVO and we're now running the hire fleet on it. Early days yet, but so far it is living up to the promises.

 

We are also retailing it, but a £1.08 for domestic, how many people will buy it remains to be seen.

I'm really thrilled to hear this! I recently delivered a 100 litres of HVO 'across the road/cut' from you for trials in a 5-cylinder Gardiner. BTW do Brinklow Boat Services know you now have stock?

 

Out of curiosity I'd be interested to know who is supplying you, if you don't mind me asking (by all means pm me).

 

The other thing we are having to get to grips with is the subsidy situation re domestic use of HVO as being out of scope of the NRMM sector it does not currently attract the 2 RTFCs that HVO use within the sector enjoys. Would you be able to talk me through how you arrive at he final retail price for HVO when used for heating, cooking etc? (again pm me if you'd rather).

 

This is a pricing anomaly that has only recently come to light and one that it looks like IWA will have to campaign on ......... although I'm told by one who knows that we're all likely to be in our boxes before we will get BEIS, HMRC and DfT to talk to one another to resolve the situation! Following successful trials with HVO in domestic oil CH boilers over last winter, OFTEC are also very keen to see this resolved and, as you observe, boaters are unlikely to pay what is effectively a very high premium unless they are are extremely 'green minded!'

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Does anyone have any direct price comparisons for red diesel vs. HVO on the canals, from the few suppliers of HVO?

 

(I know what Rose posted, what's a typical price for comparable domestic diesel? How about for propulsion/domestic/mixed use?)

 

Trying to work out how big the HVO premium actually is (or should be)...

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1 minute ago, Loddon said:

Mentioned HVO to the marina where I moor, got a positive reply and they will be investigating changing over.

TWIMC: Crown are offering to put a separate tank in FOC for a trial period where a marina/ boatyard/etc want to trial HVO. They have self-contained, ready-to-go units that can be just dropped into place. Anyone wishing to follow up on this should contact Ryan Abreu 07585 792918.

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Does anyone have any direct price comparisons for red diesel vs. HVO on the canals, from the few suppliers of HVO?

 

(I know what Rose posted, what's a typical price for comparable domestic diesel? How about for propulsion/domestic/mixed use?)

 

Trying to work out how big the HVO premium actually is (or should be)...

With the escalating price of gas oil, HVO is now up to £0.15p cheaper than GO! At the very worst, it enjoys a £0.05 advantage as far as 500+ tanker deliveries are concerned.

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