Where to begin refitting

[RoseB]

A new boat owner about to be liveaboard, and SO excited about finally having a home I can put my mark on.

The boat is a 57ft John White boat needing some updating.

I'd like advice on what to start with/what order to do it all in, I am really comfortable with carpentry/joinery bits, but will call in friends for plumbing and electrics.

-repaint boat (not urgent)

-Cratch cover and board need replacing, I'll sew a new one.

-Stove needs a twin wall flue

-I'd like to install a boiler, it currently has a calorifier, radiators and 25 year old eberspacher diesel heater, don't think it is worth servicing?

-Install solar and 12 sockets throughout

-Rip up carpets, replace with hardwood floors

-put a bath in/redo bathroom at some point, not urgent.

 

Is it worth buying the nb building book for refits too?

Thanks a heap

[Tracy D'arth]

35 minutes ago, RoseB said:

A new boat owner about to be liveaboard, and SO excited about finally having a home I can put my mark on.

The boat is a 57ft John White boat needing some updating.

I'd like advice on what to start with/what order to do it all in, I am really comfortable with carpentry/joinery bits, but will call in friends for plumbing and electrics.

-repaint boat (not urgent)

-Cratch cover and board need replacing, I'll sew a new one.

-Stove needs a twin wall flue

-I'd like to install a boiler, it currently has a calorifier, radiators and 25 year old eberspacher diesel heater, don't think it is worth servicing?

-Install solar and 12 sockets throughout

-Rip up carpets, replace with hardwood floors

-put a bath in/redo bathroom at some point, not urgent.

 

Is it worth buying the nb building book for refits too?

Thanks a heap

Yes. Its a good book. 

 Why a twin wall flue? They are horrible, you loose the heat off the flue pipe and the roof fittings and chimney are an abortion. If you want to avoid burns a perforated stainless steel wrap around sleeve looks much better but the stove is still hot.

 A bath, really?  Do you have enough water and energy to heat it?

Eberscratcher, replace it,  with a Webasto, better.

When you fit the wood floors think about a cool box in the floor under a trap door and remember you may want access to the bilge at some time.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Tracy D'arth

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Winter is coming, so first priority is getting heating sorted. Are you thinking of a twin wall flue because the old flue is rusted out? Single wall is a lot easier and cheaper to fit. I have no experience with diesel heating, so can't comment.

Second priority is generating electricity to replace what you use. Some solar will be largely useless in the depths of winter, but fitting it now will get some charging of the batteries in the autumn and is ready for the spring.

If you are doing things to floors, then this will go a lot easier if it is done without being covered by all your stuff. Possibly something to do while your stuff is elsewhere before moving on board. Three quarters of the time doing anything in a lived in boat cabin is moving stuff back and forth to make space to do what you are doing.

Jen

 

[RoseB]

So the person who had the boat before me used the stove without the chimney stack on top. Somehow, there is tar on the T&G in the boat, and marking down the side of it outside. 
what would be the best solution?  

[pete.i]

Absolutely the ONLY reason for a twin wall flue, on a boat or in a home,  is safety. If your stove is in a corner near some steps, as mine was on my last boat, and you have children on board then it does make a bit of sense to have a twin wall flue. On my boat I did find that my hand got seriously close to the flue when I ascended the steps to the cratch area. Because of that and because my grandchildren came on the boat I installed a twin wall flu. BUT you will lose heat AND having a twin wall flue does make the flu nearer to any combustables because it is thicker and I do not think the recomendations change, as to distances from combustable materials, just because you have a twin wall flue . I don't think the rules and regs apply as such to a boat but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be taken into consideration when fitting out. If your flue isn't near to anywhere where hands can touch it easily I wouldn't bother. As said a perforated steel wrap would be better if only from the point of veiw that it would allow some of the heat from the flue out into the boat. Mine wasn't perforated and I'm not sure of the aesthetics of a perforated flu personally.

 

Ah you're talking of a twin wall chimney. Different kettle of fish all together.

Edited September 12, 2021 by pete.i

[Stilllearning]

Yes, twin wall external chimney stacks avoid the tar running down the roof problem. The paint will have to come off to deal with that, but it’s not a priority, keeping warm, and having enough electric power are.

What Jen-in-Wellies says is spot on.

[Bee]

Cor, that's a mess, anybody know what causes it? Many boats have a bit of staining - mine did- but not as much as that. A friend had a boat with a brand new stove in it and a couple of drops of tar dripped onto the stove top and marked it quite badly so it must be fiercely acidic.

[RoseB]

56 minutes ago, pete.i said:

Ah you're talking of a twin wall chimney. Different kettle of fish all together.

Could you link me to what I need please?

[George and Dragon]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Three quarters of the time doing anything in a lived in boat cabin is moving stuff back and forth to make space to do what you are doing.

 

Reduce that to 5/8ths if you don't actually live aboard.

[Neil2]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

Cor, that's a mess, anybody know what causes it? Many boats have a bit of staining - mine did- but not as much as that. A friend had a boat with a brand new stove in it and a couple of drops of tar dripped onto the stove top and marked it quite badly so it must be fiercely acidic.

 

It's almost certainly caused by burning wet or unseasoned wood.

 

The black sticky stuff is like creosote and highly corrosive to metals.  You see an awful lot of this staining on steel boats, that's why.

 

Of course in England isn't it now illegal to burn wood from an uncertificated source?  I thought you were restricted to wood that had been certified with a maximum moisture content.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

45 minutes ago, RoseB said:

Could you link me to what I need please?

Twin wall chimneys keep the flue gas hotter for longer, so tar doesn't condense out so much. What does get diverted back down the flue pipe, rather than get on to the collar, roof and sides. Running the stove stopped down, rather than flat out gets more tar. For living on board, a stainless twin chimney is best. Galvanised ones can rot out completely in a year or two. My current stainless double wall chimney is over ten years old. The  extra initial expense is cheaper in the long run. Flue gases are horribly corrosive and munch their way through the thin galvanised steel.

An example:

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/products/chimney-stainless-6-x-24-brass-band-double-ac-067

Jen

[Neil2]

8 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Twin wall chimneys keep the flue gas hotter for longer, so tar doesn't condense out so much. What does get diverted back down the flue pipe, rather than get on to the collar, roof and sides. Running the stove stopped down, rather than flat out gets more tar. For living on board, a stainless twin chimney is best. Galvanised ones can rot out completely in a year or two. My current stainless double wall chimney is over ten years old. The  extra initial expense is cheaper in the long run. Flue gases are horribly corrosive and munch their way through the thin galvanised steel.

An example:

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/products/chimney-stainless-6-x-24-brass-band-double-ac-067

Jen

 

Must admit my understanding of insulated chimneys is that it has little to do with safety, it's about improving the efficiency of combustion.  One of the issues with narrowboats is the pathetic draw you get from a relatively short flue/chimney.  That's why you should only burn wood that is snuff dry, or burn coal.  Insulated chimneys are supposed to help keep the flue temperature up which makes for better drawing and overall efficiency and, as you say, reduce the condensation of flue gasses..  

 

Whenever this has been debated in the past there are those who argue that because the flue is so short, and it's inside, in practice it doesn't make much difference if it's insulated or not.

 

But not many of us have any experience.  

 

 

[RoseB]

28 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

the efficiency of combustion

This was my thought, but I think Jen seems to say that the chimney being insulated is enough. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

16 minutes ago, RoseB said:

This was my thought, but I think Jen seems to say that the chimney being insulated is enough. 

No. My point was around controlling where the tar goes. With a double skinned external chimney, less of it ends up on the collar, roof and sides of your boat, which your boat has suffered badly from. Draw and double skinned flues inside the boat are another matter. I've seen arguments both ways and precious little numbers, or controlled experimentation. A different thing entirely.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Jen-in-Wellies

[MtB]

To muddy the waters, I know of another Springer with identical staining, where the occupant only burns (and has only ever burned), good quality smokeless fuel. 

 

So it isn't caused only by burning high moisture content wood.

[Tracy D'arth]

Its drips in the rain off the Chinaman's hat on the chimney carrying the sulphur? as sulfurous/sulphuric acid onto the roof, my double walled chimney does exactly the same.

[George and Dragon]

15 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

It's almost certainly caused by burning wet or unseasoned wood.

 

The black sticky stuff is like creosote and highly corrosive to metals.  You see an awful lot of this staining on steel boats, that's why.

 

Of course in England isn't it now illegal to burn wood from an uncertificated source?  I thought you were restricted to wood that had been certified with a maximum moisture content.

I think it's illegal to sell unseasoned wood in small (<2m^3) quantities. You can still collect wood and burn it if you choose.

I see wood on the roof of boats all the time, uncovered it's not going to be dry even if it fell off the tree three years ago.

 

14 hours ago, Tracy D&#x27;arth said:

Its drips in the rain off the Chinaman's hat on the chimney carrying the sulphur? as sulfurous/sulphuric acid onto the roof, my double walled chimney does exactly the same.

Mine too. 

[David Mack]

14 hours ago, Tracy D&#x27;arth said:

Its drips in the rain off the Chinaman's hat on the chimney carrying the sulphur? as sulfurous/sulphuric acid onto the roof, my double walled chimney does exactly the same.

I would suggest that when you are not using the stove you remove the chimney and have a cover over the collar to stop rain going down the flue, and when you are using the stove have the chimney on but no chinaman's hat, so moisture in the flue gases is either carried away with the smoke or runs back down the inside of the flue.

[Tracy D'arth]

54 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I would suggest that when you are not using the stove you remove the chimney and have a cover over the collar to stop rain going down the flue, and when you are using the stove have the chimney on but no chinaman's hat, so moisture in the flue gases is either carried away with the smoke or runs back down the inside of the flue.

I would rather clean it off and repaint more often than mess about going out in the cold, damp and dark remembering to remove Chinaman's hats and flue pots.

[Iain_S]

On 12/09/2021 at 14:56, RoseB said:

So the person who had the boat before me used the stove without the chimney stack on top. Somehow, there is tar on the T&G in the boat, and marking down the side of it outside. 
what would be the best solution?  

Ditch the coolie hat and get a cover for the flue when stove not in use. Either a twin wall chimney or a separate inner which leads the drips to fall back down inside the flue. (Latter probably best as chimney looks in reasonable nick)

 

Removing the cover and fitting the chimney takes seconds. The coolie hat allows drips to fall clear of the chimney, onto the roof where they mess up the paintwork. I don't know how often Tracy repaints the cabin sides, but the drips can mark it permanently in a matter of days.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Iain_S
additional text

[blackrose]

22 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

Must admit my understanding of insulated chimneys is that it has little to do with safety, it's about improving the efficiency of combustion.  One of the issues with narrowboats is the pathetic draw you get from a relatively short flue/chimney.  That's why you should only burn wood that is snuff dry, or burn coal.  Insulated chimneys are supposed to help keep the flue temperature up which makes for better drawing and overall efficiency and, as you say, reduce the condensation of flue gasses..  

 

Whenever this has been debated in the past there are those who argue that because the flue is so short, and it's inside, in practice it doesn't make much difference if it's insulated or not.

 

But not many of us have any experience.  

 

 

 

I tried insulating my 60cm single-wall chimney (not flue) using an old 2" thick split rockwool liner of the correct diameter that found in a skip which I taped around the chimney. 

 

It was on there over a cold clear week so it didn't get wet but I found it made no difference at all to the draw of the stove or anything else. I took it off and chucked it back in the skip. 

 

Ok rockwool isn't PU insulation foam but the experiment left me unconvinced that a twin-wall insulated chimney would make any difference over such a short length. 

 

[Opener]

On 12/09/2021 at 14:56, RoseB said:

So the person who had the boat before me used the stove without the chimney stack on top. Somehow, there is tar on the T&G in the boat, and marking down the side of it outside. 
what would be the best solution?  

A wide-beamed neighbour had an effective solution. A flat plate with a short upstand at the outside edge. Fits, via a central hole, snugly round the roof collar. Plate naturally slopes overboard. Any nasties run onto/ collect on the plate and run to the lowest edge where a gap in the upstand feeds into an attached straight length of pipe long enough to allow run off to miss the cabin side. A bonus is that it is open to the sky so gets washed by rain. Plate can be round, square or whatever.

[A A Matthews]

On 12/09/2021 at 15:04, pete.i said:

Absolutely the ONLY reason for a twin wall flue, on a boat or in a home,  is safety. If your stove is in a corner near some steps, as mine was on my last boat, and you have children on board then it does make a bit of sense to have a twin wall flue. On my boat I did find that my hand got seriously close to the flue when I ascended the steps to the cratch area. Because of that and because my grandchildren came on the boat I installed a twin wall flu. BUT you will lose heat AND having a twin wall flue does make the flu nearer to any combustables because it is thicker and I do not think the recomendations change, as to distances from combustable materials, just because you have a twin wall flue . I don't think the rules and regs apply as such to a boat but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be taken into consideration when fitting out. If your flue isn't near to anywhere where hands can touch it easily I wouldn't bother. As said a perforated steel wrap would be better if only from the point of veiw that it would allow some of the heat from the flue out into the boat. Mine wasn't perforated and I'm not sure of the aesthetics of a perforated flu personally.

 

Ah you're talking of a twin wall chimney. Different kettle of fish all together.

Interesting comments as having studied the recommended way of stove installation it requires 3 x the flue diameter sea from combustible surfaces. So that’s absolutely clear ! However what is unclear is what exactly s recommended distance if behind stove you have the 1 inch thick CS on a frame / spacers of CS  ? And what about if you clad the CS with cement board making it as fire / heat resistant as possible?

[GUMPY]

My old oil stove had something similar to this to protect the flue. This one is probably too small for most flues but you get the idea.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394211538254?

[A A Matthews]

On 12/09/2021 at 14:56, RoseB said:

So the person who had the boat before me used the stove without the chimney stack on top. Somehow, there is tar on the T&G in the boat, and marking down the side of it outside. 
what would be the best solution?  

This boat was obviously neglected and this image is probably symptomatic of the state of the boat throughout