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Would this damp concern you? Potential purchase


northern

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2 hours ago, northern said:

Thanks, all.

 

I've had a narrowboat before but only for leisure.  It was only a 25ft Aintree built in 2016, so pretty new.  Unexpectedly I spent most of the first lockdown and beyond on it.  I was forced to work from home and rather than sitting staring at 4 walls moved aboard and loved it.  So much so I wanted to give living aboard on something much larger a go.  I'm not very practical but really enjoyed getting to understand how things work, i.e. couldn't understand why the Eber wouldn't fire up despite being on shoreline only to learn it uses the leisure batteries.

 

What I have learned is:

  • I'm not interested in glossy showboats with crap shells stuffed full of MDF
  • Accessibility to things is important (hence picking up on not being able to access the water tank in the boat I viewed)
  • Get a fitout with as much hardwood as possible - it'll withstand any water ingress better
  • Foam is the most sound insulation and the least likely to trap or attract moisture
  • Shell design is really important - I'd love a tug deck - not just for aesthetics but also because of how it'll move in the water

 

I took a second viewing of the boat today.  I can't fault the marina who's brokering it.  They were quite happy I unscrewed the ply floor to check the bilges under the bed, and were generally very helpful.  They spoke with the owner over the damp I've found and his feedback was that water/rain was blowing in through the vents at the bulkhead behind the cupboards, so had a cratch fitted.

 

An offer had already been made at the point of getting to the marina but I had first refusal after looking at it again.  I chose not to match it and walked away.  Reason being is that it doesn't match most of my criteria, if I'm honest.

 

I don't mind taking on a boat that's not without problems - a surveyor will always find something - but so long as whatever it is, is reflected in the price, isn't terminal and doesn't involve tearing it apart.  

 

I've got around £75k to spend and a contingency fund which'll keep growing heavily each month.  Anything from 50-60ft would be ideal, and either a trad or semi-trad.

 

This looks fantastic.  Top builder and shell.  I like the layout too.  But the pictures show lots of evidence of water ingress on the linings and evidence of damp.  The yard assure me it's a dry boat.  Still, an awful lot of money for a 1997 boat which looks not to be without problems.

 

https://www.nortoncanesboatbuilders.co.uk/home/index.php/boats-for-sale/109-dora-venus

 

 

 

That boat has been for sale for quite a while now.  You have to ask why.

 

The real area of concern is the hydraulic drive.  Note there is no picture of the engine.  I asked the broker for a picture of it but they never replied.  Some hydraulic installations are a nightmare with everything squeezed into a small space and poor access.  I would also be slightly wary that the power unit is up to the job bearing in mind the power losses with hydraulic drive.

 

Dreaded walk through bathroom too...

 

She is a lovely looking thing though and I would have a look if it's not too far away.

 

Have a look at New and Used  - they have a Norton Canes on brokerage, a lot of money though, also a Canal Transport Services 57 footer.

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On 11/09/2021 at 19:20, Neil2 said:

Water in the cabin bilge will stay there - there will be a bulkhead between the engine and cabin bilges.  IMHO a boat with no proper access to the cabin bilge has been done on the cheap.  

 

 

If course it's been done on the cheap, it's a budget boat. If it was originally a sailaway then the owner is supposed to cut out their own inspection hatch(es). It's not difficult.

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3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

If course it's been done on the cheap, it's a budget boat. If it was originally a sailaway then the owner is supposed to cut out their own inspection hatch(es). It's not difficult.

 

That's a good point, I thought Northwich only did full fitouts but you can buy a sailaway from them.  It's somewhat dishonest of the broker though if they describe the boat as "built by Northwich" when it was a DIY fitout.      

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23 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

That's a good point, I thought Northwich only did full fitouts but you can buy a sailaway from them.  It's somewhat dishonest of the broker though if they describe the boat as "built by Northwich" when it was a DIY fitout.      

 

It's definitely a Northwich fit out.  I saw the CIN and accompanying folder.  It's a template layout and you can still buy the same thing new now.

 

 

Here's the engine on Dora Venus if it's of any use...

engine.jpg

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2 hours ago, northern said:

This looks fantastic.  Top builder and shell.  I like the layout too.  But the pictures show lots of evidence of water ingress on the linings and evidence of damp.  The yard assure me it's a dry boat. 

Looks like it's just condensation to me, below the portholes where it runs off the metal frame and on the ceiling of a bathroom where someone showers without having the windows open. Does spoil the appearance a little, but difficult to keep window surrounds and bathrooms bone dry for 23 winters

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Really like this but too far out of reach as far as price goes:

 

https://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/1672

 

Here's the CTS you mentioned.  Looks great...but it's gas free.  I spoke with the broker who reckons Aga do buy-backs if I wanted rid of the stove.  Then have gas retrofitted.  Sounds like a hassle and not sure what I'd be getting myself into in terms of compliance.  Plus there'll be no storage lockers.  Shame.

 

https://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/1715

 

1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

Looks like it's just condensation to me, below the portholes where it runs off the metal frame and on the ceiling of a bathroom where someone showers without having the windows open. Does spoil the appearance a little, but difficult to keep window surrounds and bathrooms bone dry for 23 winters

 

Thanks.  Would re-varnishing cover this?  I quite like a high gloss finish if that helps mask it.

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4 minutes ago, northern said:

Really like this but too far out of reach as far as price goes:

 

https://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/1672

 

Here's the CTS you mentioned.  Looks great...but it's gas free.  I spoke with the broker who reckons Aga do buy-backs if I wanted rid of the stove.  Then have gas retrofitted.  Sounds like a hassle and not sure what I'd be getting myself into in terms of compliance.  Plus there'll be no storage lockers.  Shame.

 

https://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/1715

 

 

Manitoba has also been for sale a long time, I suspect because the owners want the asking price.  

 

 

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12 minutes ago, northern said:

Thanks.  Would re-varnishing cover this?  I quite like a high gloss finish if that helps mask it.

Possibly, although I'm the wrong person to ask as I haven't even decided whether to attempt to varnish or just tile the drip mark under my kitchen window yet!

 

The bits under the portholes will look less obvious after you reinstate some sort of curtain anyway.

 

The popular trick for hiding tarnishing on wood panelling on 20+year old boats is white gloss paint everywhere but don't think you'd want to inflict white paint on that boat! 🙂

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1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

Possibly, although I'm the wrong person to ask as I haven't even decided whether to attempt to varnish or just tile the drip mark under my kitchen window yet!

 

The bits under the portholes will look less obvious after you reinstate some sort of curtain anyway.

 

The popular trick for hiding tarnishing on wood panelling on 20+year old boats is white gloss paint everywhere but don't think you'd want to inflict white paint on that boat! 🙂

 

Not a chance I'd do that to it!  Though they've had a go in the bathroom with some green paint and it looks naff.

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4 hours ago, alias said:

 

I was thinking that looked really nice until I saw the position of the throne in photo 15. Sometimes photos are misleading, but it looks as though you might need to be short and/or have very narrow shoulders to use the convenience given the positioning and tumblehome.

 

Funny you should say that, I thought exactly the same about the shower.

 

It struck me as utterly un-useable due to lack of width at shoulder height.

 

 

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15 hours ago, northern said:

Thanks, all.

 

I've had a narrowboat before but only for leisure.  It was only a 25ft Aintree built in 2016, so pretty new.  Unexpectedly I spent most of the first lockdown and beyond on it.  I was forced to work from home and rather than sitting staring at 4 walls moved aboard and loved it.  So much so I wanted to give living aboard on something much larger a go.  I'm not very practical but really enjoyed getting to understand how things work, i.e. couldn't understand why the Eber wouldn't fire up despite being on shoreline only to learn it uses the leisure batteries.

 

What I have learned is:

  • I'm not interested in glossy showboats with crap shells stuffed full of MDF
  • Accessibility to things is important (hence picking up on not being able to access the water tank in the boat I viewed)
  • Get a fitout with as much hardwood as possible - it'll withstand any water ingress better
  • Foam is the most sound insulation and the least likely to trap or attract moisture
  • Shell design is really important - I'd love a tug deck - not just for aesthetics but also because of how it'll move in the water

 

I took a second viewing of the boat today.  I can't fault the marina who's brokering it.  They were quite happy I unscrewed the ply floor to check the bilges under the bed, and were generally very helpful.  They spoke with the owner over the damp I've found and his feedback was that water/rain was blowing in through the vents at the bulkhead behind the cupboards, so had a cratch fitted.

 

An offer had already been made at the point of getting to the marina but I had first refusal after looking at it again.  I chose not to match it and walked away.  Reason being is that it doesn't match most of my criteria, if I'm honest.

 

I don't mind taking on a boat that's not without problems - a surveyor will always find something - but so long as whatever it is, is reflected in the price, isn't terminal and doesn't involve tearing it apart.  

 

I've got around £75k to spend and a contingency fund which'll keep growing heavily each month.  Anything from 50-60ft would be ideal, and either a trad or semi-trad.

 

This looks fantastic.  Top builder and shell.  I like the layout too.  But the pictures show lots of evidence of water ingress on the linings and evidence of damp.  The yard assure me it's a dry boat.  Still, an awful lot of money for a 1997 boat which looks not to be without problems.

 

https://www.nortoncanesboatbuilders.co.uk/home/index.php/boats-for-sale/109-dora-venus

 

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for your reply, I have a 48ft tug style and the boat you viwed at looks excellent and a Doug Moore decorated back cabin!. Check the damp problems, Fixable?. The 'throne' looks as though it has a swivel seat.

I have had some damp problems with mine, they are minor though - one was caused by a porthole leaking - it just needed the bolts tightening (carefully. Brass/ steel) and the roof light to the back cabin was tricky to bond onto a bowed roof, also the brass bolts needs a sealing as these leaked, Had the boat 16 years now and this and the 2LW have been virtually faultless.

 

Boat prices at the moment are very full.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Mike

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1 hour ago, LEO said:

Hi,

 

Thanks for your reply, I have a 48ft tug style and the boat you viwed at looks excellent and a Doug Moore decorated back cabin!. Check the damp problems, Fixable?. The 'throne' looks as though it has a swivel seat.

I have had some damp problems with mine, they are minor though - one was caused by a porthole leaking - it just needed the bolts tightening (carefully. Brass/ steel) and the roof light to the back cabin was tricky to bond onto a bowed roof, also the brass bolts needs a sealing as these leaked, Had the boat 16 years now and this and the 2LW have been virtually faultless.

 

Boat prices at the moment are very full.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Mike

 

Don't mean to be picky but I think you mean Dave Moore.  Doug Moore was another "renowned" shell builder.

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4 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

Don't mean to be picky but I think you mean Dave Moore.  Doug Moore was another "renowned" shell builder.

Correct, apologies for the error..............

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21 hours ago, northern said:

Here's the CTS you mentioned.  Looks great...but it's gas free.  I spoke with the broker who reckons Aga do buy-backs if I wanted rid of the stove.  Then have gas retrofitted.  Sounds like a hassle and not sure what I'd be getting myself into in terms of compliance.  Plus there'll be no storage lockers.  Shame.

 

https://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/1715


Aga may well do buy backs — but I doubt they’d buy a Heritage Uno, seeing as how it’s made by a completely different company!  The Heritage is designed to be suitable for a narrowboat, and people who have them love them.

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3 hours ago, adam1uk said:


Aga may well do buy backs — but I doubt they’d buy a Heritage Uno, seeing as how it’s made by a completely different company!  The Heritage is designed to be suitable for a narrowboat, and people who have them love them.

 

Here's some more for you:

 

Tannoy / public address

Hoover / vacuum cleaner

Biro / pen

 

I suspect you know what was meant.

 

I'm not criticising diesel ranges, they're just not my preference. 

 

11 hours ago, LEO said:

Hi,

 

Thanks for your reply, I have a 48ft tug style and the boat you viwed at looks excellent and a Doug Moore decorated back cabin!. Check the damp problems, Fixable?. The 'throne' looks as though it has a swivel seat.

I have had some damp problems with mine, they are minor though - one was caused by a porthole leaking - it just needed the bolts tightening (carefully. Brass/ steel) and the roof light to the back cabin was tricky to bond onto a bowed roof, also the brass bolts needs a sealing as these leaked, Had the boat 16 years now and this and the 2LW have been virtually faultless.

 

Boat prices at the moment are very full.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Mike

 

Thank you.  I've not seen it in person but might view this weekend, all being well.  Without my amateur damp meter, I'm not sure I'll be able to tell if it's genuine damp or condensation/water run off from a boat that's stood a while.  I spoke with Norton Canes and they reckon it's just suffered from a lack of ventilation in the past and more's been added in recent years.

 

The shower doesn't look great though!

 

Re. the Gardener, I'd read a number of posts on here reckoning on their reliability, ease of maintenance and readily availability of parts.  With me not being mechanically minded I was steering towards the usual Beta/Canaline/Isuzu stuff until I'd read this.  Most of the positive stuff I've read related to the 2LW and not 3LW.  Are they equally reliable?

Edited by northern
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On 12/09/2021 at 20:22, enigmatic said:

Looks like it's just condensation to me, below the portholes where it runs off the metal frame and on the ceiling of a bathroom where someone showers without having the windows open. Does spoil the appearance a little, but difficult to keep window surrounds and bathrooms bone dry for 23 winters

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, but it is quite possible for there to be a sneaky leak from a porthole which is taken for condensation.

Don't bother to ask me how I know ...

 

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13 hours ago, northern said:

 

Here's some more for you:

 

Tannoy / public address

Hoover / vacuum cleaner

Biro / pen

 

I suspect you know what was meant.

 

I'm not criticising diesel ranges, they're just not my preference. 

 

 

Thank you.  I've not seen it in person but might view this weekend, all being well.  Without my amateur damp meter, I'm not sure I'll be able to tell if it's genuine damp or condensation/water run off from a boat that's stood a while.  I spoke with Norton Canes and they reckon it's just suffered from a lack of ventilation in the past and more's been added in recent years.

 

The shower doesn't look great though!

 

Re. the Gardener, I'd read a number of posts on here reckoning on their reliability, ease of maintenance and readily availability of parts.  With me not being mechanically minded I was steering towards the usual Beta/Canaline/Isuzu stuff until I'd read this.  Most of the positive stuff I've read related to the 2LW and not 3LW.  Are they equally reliable?

Hi,

I find the Gardner very reliable, and very easy to start, on the button. Both 2 and 3LW's equally so, 2LW's are happy on a narrowboat up to 70ft, 3 LW's the same. They are easy to maintain and spares not too bad. The 2L2's are good, but spares and be a problem, Not sure about 4 cylinder models in narrowboats, they are too big and never really work hard enough.

Most of the 2LW's have been recovered from South Africa, brought back as wrecks and rebuilt. Some people set the tick over speed too low, which can cause problems for the engine and gearbox.

 

Overall lovely engines. 

 

There is only one way to sort out condensation and that's ventilation.....

 

Mike

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1 minute ago, LEO said:

Hi,

I find the Gardner very reliable, and very easy to start, on the button. Both 2 and 3LW's equally so, 2LW's are happy on a narrowboat up to 70ft, 3 LW's the same. They are easy to maintain and spares not too bad. The 2L2's are good, but spares and be a problem, Not sure about 4 cylinder models in narrowboats, they are too big and never really work hard enough.

Most of the 2LW's have been recovered from South Africa, brought back as wrecks and rebuilt. Some people set the tick over speed too low, which can cause problems for the engine and gearbox.

 

Overall lovely engines. 

 

There is only one way to sort out condensation and that's ventilation.....

 

Mike

 

 

I'm not sure if this applies to the OP but the main "problem" first time narrow boaters have with a 2LW or 3LW is that they are invariably installed in a separate engine room to themselves which experienced boaters find an absolute boon, but newbiers tend to view as "a waste of space". 

 

Also, they are a good 'bridge' between a modern engine and a proper vintage, having both an enclosed flywheel and nothing else moving capable of severing a stray finger or arm accidentally inserted.

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On 12/09/2021 at 20:22, northern said:

Really like this but too far out of reach as far as price goes:

 

https://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/1672

 

Here's the CTS you mentioned.  Looks great...but it's gas free.  I spoke with the broker who reckons Aga do buy-backs if I wanted rid of the stove.  Then have gas retrofitted.  Sounds like a hassle and not sure what I'd be getting myself into in terms of compliance.  Plus there'll be no storage lockers.  Shame.

 

https://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/1715

 

 

Thanks.  Would re-varnishing cover this?  I quite like a high gloss finish if that helps mask it.

 I spoke with the broker who reckons Aga do buy-backs if I wanted rid of the stove.

 

It's a Heritage UNO stove. They make double ovens as well (called the compact) which I have had. More than one heating engineer (domestic, not boat specific) have said they are the most reliable and easy to work on of all 'AGA' style oven/boilers. If I was looking for a boat and it had one of these, it would be a MAJOR buying point for me. (£5k new). Other than burning solid fuel, possibly the most relaible means of heating with cooking thrown in as a bonus. For summer, I would simply add a 1 or 2 burner gas hob. Probably already mentioned but Dennis Copper aka Canal Transport Services made superb hulls.

 

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14 hours ago, northern said:

 

Here's some more for you:

 

Tannoy / public address

Hoover / vacuum cleaner

Biro / pen

 

 

 

Rightly or wrongly I don't tend to use "Aga" as shorthand for these appliances, but it did lead to a very odd conversation with a friend of mine who has just bought his wife an electric camper van.   He said it was ok but he wasn't too happy with the "range".  We got quite a long way down the road before I realised he was referring to the miles travelled on one charge...

 

 

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6 minutes ago, BWM said:

https://www.reedleymarina.co.uk/boat-sales-at-reedley-marina-ellen/

 

This looks like a lot of boat for the money, Les Allen boats are generally good quality - my son has one 1992 build and the baseplate/sides looked like a sheet of glass when lifted.

Superb steel quality, Ellen has a 20mm baseplate and no ballast beneath. I came very close to buying her last year (deposit was paid) when she was for sale at Swanley Brokerage. Full hydraulic system for 2LW and thruster.

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6 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

Superb steel quality, Ellen has a 20mm baseplate and no ballast beneath. I came very close to buying her last year (deposit was paid) when she was for sale at Swanley Brokerage. Full hydraulic system for 2LW and thruster.

forgot to add that I believe Ellen was sold.

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1 hour ago, Markinaboat said:

forgot to add that I believe Ellen was sold.

It doesn't show it as sold but i wouldn't be surprised, as you say, it is a great boat on the faceof it. 

  Saw another Les Allen 'Malta', which at 45,000 seems reasonable but more of a project. 

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17 minutes ago, BWM said:

It doesn't show it as sold but i wouldn't be surprised, as you say, it is a great boat on the faceof it. 

  Saw another Les Allen 'Malta', which at 45,000 seems reasonable but more of a project. 

just had another look at 'Ellen', scroll down to the listings and it is flagged as sold. Needed a bit of work but wouldn't drop below £64k

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