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Would this damp concern you? Potential purchase


northern

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Having had an unfavourable result on a survey earlier this week I'm on the lookout again.  I viewed a 2016 boat made by Northwich Boat Co. today.  Apart from feeling a bit utilitarian and without character, all seemed well enough except what's pictured below.

 

The pictures are taken at the bow, with it being reverse layout, and show some damp patches found.  I used a damp meter designed for wood use.   I also used a very bright LED torch so the affects of the water marks look exaggerated.  

 

Picture 1 - taken in the cupboard on the portside, top corner.  Nowhere near a window or roof vent etc but looks like the nav light is on the other side of this, so presume that's the source.  Damp reading of 20%

 

Picture 2 and 3 -  under the bed.  It's not carpeted, just the ply subfloor.  Measurement of 20% on the water marked patches.  It looks like it's been cut out and screwed back down at some point.  Nothing feel wet to touch or damp, and doesn't smell damp

 

Picture 4 - the base of a cupboard at the bow, port side, containing water pump etc.  Readings of 20%

 

Picture 5 - the base of a cupboard at the bow, starboard side, 20% readings

 

Picture 6 - gives you an idea of layout 

 

In all surrounding areas I've also taken measurements and they're coming back dry, including right at the base of hull linings, upwards and up to the gunwales.  They read bone dry.  The same can be said of cupboard / wardrobe bases - there's no outer water markings and they're reading dry too.

 

I'm guessing there's been a leak at some point which has now been tended to.  Potentially from the water tank or from a water pump.  My guess is the tank, as the staining is on both sides of the boat and not just localised to where the pump is.

 

There's no access to the bilges anywhere but did manage to see as best I could into the hole where the shower pump leads to and the bilge feels/looks dry.  Same can be said of engine bilge.  If there was a major leak then I'd expect it to have trickled all the way back to the engine bilge.  

 

So what do you reckon?  Enough to put you off?

 

My other concern is you can't get to the water tank itself.  There's no access behind the steps.  Instead the isolator is by the water pump as pictured.  I took a photo of the layout too.  Would this concern you, in so much as you can't check for leaks from the pipework which connects to the tank.

 

 

 

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Sorry, pics haven't come out in a logical order and don't match the diagram, but hopefully it's clear enough...

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Water in the cabin bilge will stay there - there will be a bulkhead between the engine and cabin bilges.  IMHO a boat with no proper access to the cabin bilge has been done on the cheap.  Ditto no access to the water tank - assuming it is a tank and not integral.

 

Don't like the look of it for a fairly new boat.  I suppose it depends how much they want for it.  Northwich are nothing special, think they use imported Polish shells but I may be wrong.

 

 

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The water tank is stainless and doesn't appear to have been spray foamed so quite possibly condensation as you say.  But the watermarks under the bed must be something else.  I can't imagine condensation would get that far back.  There's screws in the ply subfloor and cut outs, so looks like it's had a hole cut in it at some point to access the bilge.

 

The damp is only in 1 top corner and the nav light is on the opposite side, so presume it's letting water in.  I think the readings there were less than 20%.

 

The isolator for the tank is at the bottom of the cupboard by the pump but you can't get to the connector on the tank itself.

 

Northwich aren't anything too special, I agree, but it's a 5 year old boat that otherwise appears in decent condition and can be had for mid £60k.  The idea would be to move on in the future to something more special but at least it gets me on the water, and for what's a reasonable price at the moment.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, The Bearwood Boster said:

I don't think I'd be happy spending that much on a boat I really wasn't sure about... 

 

Neither am I really.

 

I've had 2 surveys on boats this year and have backed out of all of them due to issues found.  It's massively disheartening, never mind the cost!  

 

The surveyor I've been using I think has taken pity on me.  After the last survey he's spent a great deal of time showing me exactly what to look for, hence finding what I found today.  I was on the boat for almost 2 hours, lifting/pulling out/inspecting just about everything possible.  The damp meter and super bright torch he recommended and his advice have already paid off with what I found on this boat.

 

I've come close to quitting the search and pursuing a house instead after all the frustration and disappointment.  But a week on since the last bad finding I've decided to crack on, reminding myself why I've made the decision to move from leisure boating to liveaboard.

 

Fingers crossed it'll get better.  And more boats come to the market soon enough, now summer's over and those who've held on to their boat due to travel restrictions start to list them.

 

I'd much rather a slightly older boat with a bit of character and hull made by a renowned builder. 

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I can answer the OP's question, as set out in the thread title, in one word.

 

YES

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, northern said:

I've had 2 surveys on boats this year and have backed out of all of them due to issues found.  It's massively disheartening, never mind the cost!  

 

The surveyor I've been using I think has taken pity on me.  After the last survey he's spent a great deal of time showing me exactly what to look for, hence finding what I found today.  I was on the boat for almost 2 hours, lifting/pulling out/inspecting just about everything possible.  The damp meter and super bright torch he recommended and his advice have already paid off with what I found on this boat.

 

 

His fees were a very worthwhile investment, then. You have saved yourself thousands of pounds worth of mither and headaches.

 

 

Edited by Machpoint005
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5 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

I can answer the OP's question, as set out in the thread title, in one word.

 

No.

 

 

 

His fees were a very worthwhile investment, then. You have saved yourself thousands of pounds worth of mither and headaches.

 

 

 

The readings/pictures wouldn't put you off then?

 

My findings today don't bother me too much.  And having sent the pictures and findings to him earlier today to gauge his view, they don't bother him on the face of it, although of course he'd need to see first hand.

 

Absolutely no doubt that as much as it's a drain to spend £500 plus slipway fees each time, the cost of getting it wrong would be far greater, so there's no regrets from me!

 

I feel much more comfortable now looking at boats following his advice, rather than stepping on board and not really knowing what to look for, as before.

Edited by northern
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Boats - all boats - are full of unventilated corners and damp stale air. Often there is little you can do about it. I don't like the last pic. That looks like damp has got into the lining and that staining will stay even if its possible to sort the problem out and it might well be an awkward job to do that. 65k seems a lot but I'm not that up to date with prices but unless it is something exciting and you really want to own and care for it I might keep looking. Your surveyor sounds like a decent chap. Thing is that if he surveyed my boat he would make a long list of faults or stuff needing doing and that would put a lot of people off but it is still a very good boat but falls short on some modern expectations. That's surveys for you and most boats would get a few faults flagged up.

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1 hour ago, northern said:

The damp is only in 1 top corner and the nav light is on the opposite side, so presume it's letting water in.  I think the readings there were less than 20%.

That could be leakage from the nav light or it could be condensation. The latter would suggest that the insulation is not continuous in this area.

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I took about three gallons of water out of the cabin bilge at the front of the boat a couple of years ago, all from about two square feet of the front wall of the cabin behind the bed that I'd missed insulating. All condensation over one winter. That bulkhead is part of the integral water tank, so it's always cold, but the boat wasn't even lived on at the time, so was just from the air.

Boats get damp if left unattended, and the wood marks. Whether it matters is up to you. Whatever boat you get, if you're not living on it and keeping it warm all winter, there will be damp and mould by spring. Happens in houses, too.

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Those old Harborough boats swim well for a narrow boat. Fine entry bows the chines very economical on fuel and should handle beautifully. I could place mine on a sixpence, and could-will go astern pretty accurately for a long way too, around bends ect with no bother.

 

Sorry in wrong topic. I meant it for the Fibre glass top topic.

Edited by bizzard
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Hi, I suspect a lot of those damp signs are condensation and poor ventilation, 'Orrible things those resistance meters, you call Damp meters, you are only taking a surface reading. I would have preferred the water pump to be mounted in a tray to catch leaks and it does help if cold water pipes are insulated. The damp in the bulkhead will always show, I assume the sub-floor area has been checked and is dry. 

 

I'm a retired Surveyor and hated those dammed meters, to use them properly you need a decent one which has been calibrated.

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50 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Those old Harborough boats swim well for a narrow boat. Fine entry bows the chines very economical on fuel and should handle beautifully. I could place mine on a sixpence, and could-will go astern pretty accurately for a long way too, around bends ect with no bother.

 

Sorry in wrong topic. I meant it for the Fibre glass top topic.

 

Just keep taking the pills Biz.

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12 hours ago, David Mack said:

That could be leakage from the nav light or it could be condensation. The latter would suggest that the insulation is not continuous in this area.

 

Thanks.  Thought that might also be the case.  If it's related to insulation then it'll never get better but likely won't get worse if it's lived aboard and kept heated/ventilated properly

12 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I took about three gallons of water out of the cabin bilge at the front of the boat a couple of years ago, all from about two square feet of the front wall of the cabin behind the bed that I'd missed insulating. All condensation over one winter. That bulkhead is part of the integral water tank, so it's always cold, but the boat wasn't even lived on at the time, so was just from the air.

Boats get damp if left unattended, and the wood marks. Whether it matters is up to you. Whatever boat you get, if you're not living on it and keeping it warm all winter, there will be damp and mould by spring. Happens in houses, too.

 

The boat pictured was lived on until a few months ago and did a lot of cruising - 2,400 engine hours in 5 years - so has likely been kept as warm as it was ever going to have been.  Fortunately there's no sign of mould.  But whatever's happened I'm guessing isn't down to it getting cold.  The patches under the bed are too localised to a certain area.  I can understand the ones in the two adjacent cupboards by the water tank, as maybe being down to condensation from the tank.

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11 hours ago, LEO said:

Hi, I suspect a lot of those damp signs are condensation and poor ventilation, 'Orrible things those resistance meters, you call Damp meters, you are only taking a surface reading. I would have preferred the water pump to be mounted in a tray to catch leaks and it does help if cold water pipes are insulated. The damp in the bulkhead will always show, I assume the sub-floor area has been checked and is dry. 

 

I'm a retired Surveyor and hated those dammed meters, to use them properly you need a decent one which has been calibrated.

 

The meter is only a 30 quid wood moisture reader but I thought better than nothing.  I couldn't justify the £500 bit of kit the surveyor uses which needs calibrating and I'm sure will do a far better job.  

 

The sub floor is pictured - the cupboard with the pump is on the portside against the bow bulkhead.  The slight water marking/dampness shown in the interior woodwork is part of this cupboard.  The hull linings of this same cupboard didn't read much, if any, damp, from memory.

 

And the second picture show is the adjacent cupboard at the bow bulkhead opposite.  The floor looks to have absorbed water.  You can just about see the water tank.  

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I doubt there is an such thing as a used boat with no faults.

My boat had faults found on survey.  I obtained prices and made estimates and reduced my offer accordingly. A little haggling later and the reduced price was agreed.

 

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13 hours ago, Bee said:

Boats - all boats - are full of unventilated corners and damp stale air. Often there is little you can do about it. I don't like the last pic. That looks like damp has got into the lining and that staining will stay even if its possible to sort the problem out and it might well be an awkward job to do that. 65k seems a lot but I'm not that up to date with prices but unless it is something exciting and you really want to own and care for it I might keep looking. Your surveyor sounds like a decent chap. Thing is that if he surveyed my boat he would make a long list of faults or stuff needing doing and that would put a lot of people off but it is still a very good boat but falls short on some modern expectations. That's surveys for you and most boats would get a few faults flagged up.

 

Right now, £65k for a young boat is very decent.  I appreciate that doesn't make the boat itself decent.  Most stuff that's around the 60ft mark is around £65-70k for 2005-2010 boat.  I'm not looking for a younger boat specifically and appreciate a young boat isn't necessarily better than an older boat by any means!

 

The surveyor has been very decent in helping me know what to look for and what to do.  General advice has been to get a decent torch and a moisture meter (it won't be perfect but it's better than nothing).  Take everything that can come apart, apart.  Use the torch on all wooden surfaces to show water marks you'd otherwise not see.  Use the moisture reader at varying levels especially when you find moisture, to see whether it's rising from the floor or trace the ingress point.  Take the bases out of cupboards if possible.  Check the bilges where possible.  And so on. 

 

He was good enough to give me a call yesterday after I sent him those photos.

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14 hours ago, northern said:

Apart from feeling a bit utilitarian and without character, all seemed well enough except what's pictured below.

 

Firstly , I would not buy this boat, but not because of the damp.

 

Whoever wanted to own a boat that feels "utilitarian and without character"? I find the opposite occurs. Its the boats simply oozing personality and character make me buy them, complete with problems, to which I then set about finding solutions. Surely to enjoy one's boat it needs it to be the opposite of utilitarian and without character.

 

Having said that, the only way you'll get close to a perfect boat is to buy new. All boats start degrading and throwing up problems the minute they leave the builder's industrial unit. Some of them before, even. Take a long hard look at ANY boat and it is easy to come up with lists of problems, as most surveyors will happily demonstrate. The art is in deciding which lists bother you the least, but a list there all always be if your surveyor is any good. "Expectation management" some might call it. 

 

One thing I can almost guarantee (disasters aside), is this boat will not sink from a bit of damp in cupboards. It will still be cruising cut cut in 25 years under someone's ownership, whether or not it is yours. 

 

It is often said you don't on a boat, it owns you. What has actually happened here is so far, no boat has decided to make you fall in love with it and make you buy it. This will happen eventually if you keep on looking. You'll know when it happens because as you book the survey, you'll be thinking to yourself "Do I really need this survey? I'm gonna buy this boat anyway, who cares if the cupboards are damp!"

 

Just another point of view. 

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Firstly , I would not buy this boat, but not because of the damp.

 

Whoever wanted to own a boat that feels "utilitarian and without character"? I find the opposite occurs. Its the boats simply oozing personality and character make me buy them, complete with problems, to which I then set about finding solutions. Surely to enjoy one's boat it needs it to be the opposite of utilitarian and without character.

 

Having said that, the only way you'll get close to a perfect boat is to buy new. All boats start degrading and throwing up problems the minute they leave the builder's industrial unit. Some of them before, even. Take a long hard look at ANY boat and it is easy to come up with lists of problems, as most surveyors will happily demonstrate. The art is in deciding which lists bother you the least, but a list there all always be if your surveyor is any good. "Expectation management" some might call it. 

 

One thing I can almost guarantee (disasters aside), is this boat will not sink from a bit of damp in cupboards. It will still be cruising cut cut in 25 years under someone's ownership, whether or not it is yours. 

 

It is often said you don't on a boat, it owns you. What has actually happened here is so far, no boat has decided to make you fall in love with it and make you buy it. This will happen eventually if you keep on looking. You'll know when it happens because as you book the survey, you'll be thinking to yourself "Do I really need this survey? I'm gonna buy this boat anyway, who cares if the cupboards are damp!"

 

Just another point of view. 

Can I disabuse those who think that a new boat comes without problems! Any large and complex bespoke construction project has flaws and one of the more important factors in choosing a builder is to find one who will go the extra mile in fixing them as they arise. 'Teething troubles' used to be the name but, from the building industry, snagging is more common now. Also important is to make sure that you try out everything well withing the snagging period - few new boats will come with a warranty period, other than set by consumer law.

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Firstly , I would not buy this boat, but not because of the damp.

 

Whoever wanted to own a boat that feels "utilitarian and without character"? I find the opposite occurs. Its the boats simply oozing personality and character make me buy them, complete with problems, to which I then set about finding solutions. Surely to enjoy one's boat it needs it to be the opposite of utilitarian and without character.

 

Having said that, the only way you'll get close to a perfect boat is to buy new. All boats start degrading and throwing up problems the minute they leave the builder's industrial unit. Some of them before, even. Take a long hard look at ANY boat and it is easy to come up with lists of problems, as most surveyors will happily demonstrate. The art is in deciding which lists bother you the least, but a list there all always be if your surveyor is any good. "Expectation management" some might call it. 

 

One thing I can almost guarantee (disasters aside), is this boat will not sink from a bit of damp in cupboards. It will still be cruising cut cut in 25 years under someone's ownership, whether or not it is yours. 

 

It is often said you don't on a boat, it owns you. What has actually happened here is so far, no boat has decided to make you fall in love with it and make you buy it. This will happen eventually if you keep on looking. You'll know when it happens because as you book the survey, you'll be thinking to yourself "Do I really need this survey? I'm gonna buy this boat anyway, who cares if the cupboards are damp!"

 

Just another point of view. 

 

Personally I think @northern might just be after a bit of moral support... He doesn't want this boat but would like some reassurance that he's doing the right thing by going past it.

 

I wonder though, if you want a "slightly older" boat from a "renowned builder" I'd suggest you're looking at quite a bit more than £65k these days.   

 

Losing this obsession with the age of the boat is the key to finding something you really like. 

 

 

Edited by Neil2
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5 hours ago, northern said:

 

The meter is only a 30 quid wood moisture reader but I thought better than nothing.  I couldn't justify the £500 bit of kit the surveyor uses which needs calibrating and I'm sure will do a far better job.  

 

The sub floor is pictured - the cupboard with the pump is on the portside against the bow bulkhead.  The slight water marking/dampness shown in the interior woodwork is part of this cupboard.  The hull linings of this same cupboard didn't read much, if any, damp, from memory.

 

And the second picture show is the adjacent cupboard at the bow bulkhead opposite.  The floor looks to have absorbed water.  You can just about see the water tank.  

Hi,

 

This is fair comment, it's tricky buying boats at the best of times and the present time is crazy with many changing hands without even a survey. You are trying hard to do the right thing, and I do wish you luck, The sub floor void is the area under the floor, down to the top of the base plate. I think all boats have problems, even new ones but they do take time to show themselves. I've bought a couple of boats no survey, and have found faults, but have found it part of the 'pleasures of ownership' to cure these. The boats themselves have brought great pleasure in ownership........I remember one resulted in a a lot of water on top of the base plate, it took me weeks to find the ingress of water - a paint drip on a fridge vent, diverting rainwater into the boat.

Being practical helps if you are a boat owner and saves you money, relying on a damp meter does not help.........I know from experience in looking at houses and boats - I have never used a meter on a boat.....condensation levels do not help.

 

Not sure how many boats you have owned but the advice is to buy a cheap boat  and learn about problems, or if you have the cash, buy a more expensive boat  and learn about the problems.....but bear in mind there is no such thing as a problem free boat when you get it, it only becomes problem free when you have owned it for some years and know it's workings, that takes ages, (I nearly said they are a bit like a woman, but 'woke' brickbats might start flying about).

 

Have fun, the only other piece of advice- make sure you have a reasonable 'stash of cash' to pay for unexpected problems if and I am sure when, they crop up.

 

Hope this helps ----Mike.

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Thanks, all.

 

I've had a narrowboat before but only for leisure.  It was only a 25ft Aintree built in 2016, so pretty new.  Unexpectedly I spent most of the first lockdown and beyond on it.  I was forced to work from home and rather than sitting staring at 4 walls moved aboard and loved it.  So much so I wanted to give living aboard on something much larger a go.  I'm not very practical but really enjoyed getting to understand how things work, i.e. couldn't understand why the Eber wouldn't fire up despite being on shoreline only to learn it uses the leisure batteries.

 

What I have learned is:

  • I'm not interested in glossy showboats with crap shells stuffed full of MDF
  • Accessibility to things is important (hence picking up on not being able to access the water tank in the boat I viewed)
  • Get a fitout with as much hardwood as possible - it'll withstand any water ingress better
  • Foam is the most sound insulation and the least likely to trap or attract moisture
  • Shell design is really important - I'd love a tug deck - not just for aesthetics but also because of how it'll move in the water

 

I took a second viewing of the boat today.  I can't fault the marina who's brokering it.  They were quite happy I unscrewed the ply floor to check the bilges under the bed, and were generally very helpful.  They spoke with the owner over the damp I've found and his feedback was that water/rain was blowing in through the vents at the bulkhead behind the cupboards, so had a cratch fitted.

 

An offer had already been made at the point of getting to the marina but I had first refusal after looking at it again.  I chose not to match it and walked away.  Reason being is that it doesn't match most of my criteria, if I'm honest.

 

I don't mind taking on a boat that's not without problems - a surveyor will always find something - but so long as whatever it is, is reflected in the price, isn't terminal and doesn't involve tearing it apart.  

 

I've got around £75k to spend and a contingency fund which'll keep growing heavily each month.  Anything from 50-60ft would be ideal, and either a trad or semi-trad.

 

This looks fantastic.  Top builder and shell.  I like the layout too.  But the pictures show lots of evidence of water ingress on the linings and evidence of damp.  The yard assure me it's a dry boat.  Still, an awful lot of money for a 1997 boat which looks not to be without problems.

 

https://www.nortoncanesboatbuilders.co.uk/home/index.php/boats-for-sale/109-dora-venus

 

 

Edited by northern
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1 hour ago, northern said:

Thanks, all.

 

I've had a narrowboat before but only for leisure.  It was only a 25ft Aintree built in 2016, so pretty new.  Unexpectedly I spent most of the first lockdown and beyond on it.  I was forced to work from home and rather than sitting staring at 4 walls moved aboard and loved it.  So much so I wanted to give living aboard on something much larger a go.  I'm not very practical but really enjoyed getting to understand how things work, i.e. couldn't understand why the Eber wouldn't fire up despite being on shoreline only to learn it uses the leisure batteries.

 

What I have learned is:

  • I'm not interested in glossy showboats with crap shells stuffed full of MDF
  • Accessibility to things is important (hence picking up on not being able to access the water tank in the boat I viewed)
  • Get a fitout with as much hardwood as possible - it'll withstand any water ingress better
  • Foam is the most sound insulation and the least likely to trap or attract moisture
  • Shell design is really important - I'd love a tug deck - not just for aesthetics but also because of how it'll move in the water

 

I took a second viewing of the boat today.  I can't fault the marina who's brokering it.  They were quite happy I unscrewed the ply floor to check the bilges under the bed, and were generally very helpful.  They spoke with the owner over the damp I've found and his feedback was that water/rain was blowing in through the vents at the bulkhead behind the cupboards, so had a cratch fitted.

 

An offer had already been made at the point of getting to the marina but I had first refusal after looking at it again.  I chose not to match it and walked away.  Reason being is that it doesn't match most of my criteria, if I'm honest.

 

I don't mind taking on a boat that's not without problems - a surveyor will always find something - but so long as whatever it is, is reflected in the price, isn't terminal and doesn't involve tearing it apart.  

 

I've got around £75k to spend and a contingency fund which'll keep growing heavily each month.  Anything from 50-60ft would be ideal, and either a trad or semi-trad.

 

This looks fantastic.  Top builder and shell.  I like the layout too.  But the pictures show lots of evidence of water ingress on the linings and evidence of damp.  The yard assure me it's a dry boat.  Still, an awful lot of money for a 1997 boat which looks not to be without problems.

 

https://www.nortoncanesboatbuilders.co.uk/home/index.php/boats-for-sale/109-dora-venus

 

 

 

I was thinking that looked really nice until I saw the position of the throne in photo 15. Sometimes photos are misleading, but it looks as though you might need to be short and/or have very narrow shoulders to use the convenience given the positioning and tumblehome.

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