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Number 9

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2 hours ago, PaulJ said:

For what its worth, Id go with a Trad but put the walkthrough bathroom up at the back end. Cant beat them for space.

Handy for stripping off wet weather gear (presuming you boat all weathers) and allows access to all the other cabins when in use

Cant beat a boat with the bathroom at the back end as a boat mover....saves taking a whizz off the side in a tunnel.

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Our 54 footer seemed to have  as much cabin space as a 57 because the forepeak was only about 14 inches long and the well deck could just about sit two either side. This meant the cabin sides were "pinched in" at the front to follow the hull shape also the front bulkhead was much further forward than on many other boats The cruiser stern aft cockpit was not too roomy as well so probably a bit of cabin gain there. Not sure  how amenable the hull builder would be to those alternations.

 

Bring a cruiser stern, the gas tank was outside against the rear bulkhead (so another seat) which made gas bottle changes far easier than having them in the for peak and having to balance in font of a cratch. Cruiser stern engine rooms do not have to be either wet or oily. They tend to be wet when the hull builder has not installed adequate deck board drains and oily when the owners don't keep on top of their maintenance, use bilge blankets, and don't clean them now and again. They also make getting on and off far safer, in my view, and also put a steel bulkhead between you and what will be a smelly engine when it develops a fuel weep. Agree about having a patio and the folding chairs. it's also possible to mount a sun umbrella and/or a small coffee table if you put a Desmo socket in the deck board. Thinking about it, the same setup (leg, small round table with a hole in the centre) would make it easy to drop a small rotary washing line into place. Could be very useful for liveaboards. Cruiser sterns are far more social, too, especially when you have guests aboard.

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10 hours ago, DandV said:

A big advantage of a cruiser stern is that it becomes an outside terrace when moored up. Those cheap fold up chairs are immeasurably more comfortable then the bench seats on a semi trad. And you are not severed from the water and waterborne life, and even shore borne life to the extent those extended cabin sides do on a semi trad.

The big disadvantage is when boating in severely inclement weather, the helm is severly exposed. Time to just moor up, unlike a hirer you are not under anywhere near the same time constraints.

We don’t have bench seats / lockers on our semi trad. We use fold up chairs and the cabin sides add a bit of privacy if sitting out by a busy towpath. Room for a fold up bike and a big dog as well. Easy access to the engine / batteries.  Ours is not a live aboard boat so we are not worried about losing a bit of cabin space. 

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Cruisers are great for having the crew, dogs etc on deck but the ideal way to handle a narrowboat is from a "trad" position, with the tiller and throttle control to hand and a proper view down the boat.  Cruiser stern boat owners end up doing that side to side shuffle when manoeuvring and the throttle lever is too far over to the left.  

 

That's why folk are attracted to the semi trad which seem to give the best of both worlds, but in fact it's a compromise and removes all the advantages of a cruiser without giving much in return.  In my view. 

 

What you do need with a trad though is a decent amount of external space up front, and this makes the lines of the boat much more attractive too.

 

I've had all three types, we hated the semi trad for the reasons stated.  Of the other two I wouldn't care what I had now it's a six and two threes.  What is a pain though is needing a deck cover on a cruiser, I hear what Tony says about drains but I wouldn't leave a boat for weeks on end in the winter just relying on the deck drains.

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We much prefer the walk through bathroom that we have on our boat, it provides a lot more space when getting out of the shower. Never been a problem with locked doors or getting from one end to the other when it is in use, I just walk around outside if required or wait.

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So far as planning a layout is concerned I reckon that allocating most of the space to where you spend most time is sensible if obvious. Skimp on the loo, skimp on the sleeping space but have as much living area as poss. A trad. means you can store your tools and engineering stuff in the dry, a cruiser stern is just a damp, mouldy mess in February, you are better off having a flush tug deck at the front for storage underneath and sitting out so long as you are flexible enough to get in and out. That way you are using every inch that you are paying licence and mooring fees for. Solar is no longer a gimmick, bung some panels on the roof.

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18 hours ago, Number 9 said:

I understood 57 was maximum on the calder and hebble but 61 maximumwould get us along the leeds liverpool, I am happy to be corrected

 

57 foot is comfortable maximum for a "go anywhere" boat, 58 foot still doable with a little care, 60 foot doable but for a couple of locks on this Calder & Hebble you have to remove fenders, go diagonally and reverse through.

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15 hours ago, DandV said:

A big advantage of a cruiser stern is that it becomes an outside terrace when moored up. Those cheap fold up chairs are immeasurably more comfortable then the bench seats on a semi trad. And you are not severed from the water and waterborne life, and even shore borne life to the extent those extended cabin sides do on a semi trad.

The big disadvantage is when boating in severely inclement weather, the helm is severly exposed. Time to just moor up, unlike a hirer you are not under anywhere near the same time constraints.

 

I have a modern trad with an extra wide hatch. Mrs Hound sits on a sort of foldable bar stool with a back, enjoying the scenery, whilst I steer. 

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4 hours ago, Rob-M said:

We much prefer the walk through bathroom that we have on our boat, it provides a lot more space when getting out of the shower. Never been a problem with locked doors or getting from one end to the other when it is in use, I just walk around outside if required or wait.

 

My boat has a shower over a small bath. However the clever bit is a folding and sliding shower screen, which when folded back over the bath, provides the room to "swing a towel across your back",  which is impossible in many self contained narrowboat bathrooms.

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15 hours ago, DandV said:

A big advantage of a cruiser stern is that it becomes an outside terrace when moored up. Those cheap fold up chairs are immeasurably more comfortable then the bench seats on a semi trad. And you are not severed from the water and waterborne life, and even shore borne life to the extent those extended cabin sides do on a semi trad.

The big disadvantage is when boating in severely inclement weather, the helm is severly exposed. Time to just moor up, unlike a hirer you are not under anywhere near the same time constraints.

 

And a big disadvantage of a cruiser stern is that it is a cold, windy and lonely place to be when cruising in the winter. 

 

With a trad you can close the stern door, pull the hatch close to your stomach and enjoy the warmth from within the boat. Even better if the boat has a back cabin with a stove in it.

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7 hours ago, cuthound said:

And a big disadvantage of a cruiser stern is that it is a cold, windy and lonely place to be when cruising in the winter. 

 

I've always found that there is no 'bad weather' when you are boating, you are just wearing the wrong clothes.

 

I have an 'inside helm' position, and an 'outside helm' position. (I always use the outside helm), if the clothing worn is wrong for that particular day, we stop inside, drink tea and eat lots of cakes.

 

 

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On 11/09/2021 at 19:00, Tracy D'arth said:

Maximum space but a semi trad?  Could I suggest a trad with a large double rear hatch, small one on a big one?  More cabin space but still possible for crew gathering?  I find the semi trad bit to be fairly useless, not secure, uncomfortable seating, rust trap and the steerer still out in the rain.

Horses for courses......i disagree. When she was around the dog was secure, there is some weather protection compared with a cruiser stern, you can get more than two in the cockpit . Buest of all in my opinion i can sit outside anywhere on my reclining chair with a beer and a book with reasonable weather protection

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We have a trad with a somewhat wider hatch, room for 2. Great in cold or inclement weather. And for tinkering with the engine etc when it’s raining. The bow deck is for lounging once tied up, or for near silent cruising for the non-steerer. It seems to me sensible to have just one largish area of deck, and having it at the front makes more sense.

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18 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

My boat has a shower over a small bath. However the clever bit is a folding and sliding shower screen, which when folded back over the bath, provides the room to "swing a towel across your back",  which is impossible in many self contained narrowboat bathrooms.

Pictures please!

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30 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

We have a trad with a somewhat wider hatch, room for 2. Great in cold or inclement weather. And for tinkering with the engine etc when it’s raining. The bow deck is for lounging once tied up, or for near silent cruising for the non-steerer. It seems to me sensible to have just one largish area of deck, and having it at the front makes more sense.

 

That may be if the steerer is getting on for anti-social, You can't beat a cruiser stern for being sociable and a decent silencer, a stern pointing exhaust outlet and a bit of sound deadening makes all the difference to engine noise. I never found the rain a particular problem that standing in a hatch would solve.

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9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That may be if the steerer is getting on for anti-social, You can't beat a cruiser stern for being sociable and a decent silencer, a stern pointing exhaust outlet and a bit of sound deadening makes all the difference to engine noise. I never found the rain a particular problem that standing in a hatch would solve.

 A Kagool  like a canoe spray sheet fitted over the small hatch area, a decent waterproof hat, hatches closed behind me and I can cruise all day in the rain if I have to.

I don't like the low tillers on a cruiser stern, give be backache.

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OP actually mentions semi cruiser, which is not the same as semi trad, an important detail if having one built and not paying close attention as you’ll not get what you expect.

 

If i was the OP i’d go and look at as many boats as you can, with features you think you’d like, to physically experience them.

Also, get some graph paper and make a rectangle that when scaled up equates to roughly 40ft x 6ft. Thats probably what you’re looking at as interior space on a 57-58ft boat. Now you can fiddle about with layouts. Lots of brokerages will list boats with a plan view showing measurements to give you an idea of sizes for bedroom, bathroom, galley, dinette, saloon etc.

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Whilst you are sorting the layout, think about weights, and services.

Try to balance the heavy things ( stove, cooker, washing machine, bog tank, beer store)  on either side of the boat and try to keep the gas and water pipes all on one side.  You builder will thank you, it will make ballasting easier and you will not have the worry of sevices pipes disappearing under the floor. Gas in the bilge is never a good idea.

 

Make sure there is easy access to the bilge, preferably all along, but at least near the back of the cabin.  It WILL, one day,  get water in it and you want to be able to dry it out.  A fan, blowing air from the bilge across the fridge condenser, switched by the fridge electronics,  is a Good Thing for both bilge and fridge.

If you are having 240V then , like a house,  have plenty of sockets. They don't eat owt and save having trailing cables.

 

N

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Everyone has different views on all these layout factors (stern, bathroom, bows) but a lot is also linked with the overall layout of the boat -- where the bedroom/bathroom/saloon/galley are.

 

A trad stern does have warmth/dryness advantages for the steerer, especially if you have a stove in a boatmans cabin inside the rear doors like a working boat and a separate engine room in front of it -- which are OK on full-length boats if that's what you want. If you don't then you won't be as warm and both engine access and getting in/out of the boat over it are issues. Unless there are only two of you and you are both standing in the hatch -- which needs to be extra-large -- a trad stern is antisocial for the steerer when cruising. If the bows are used for sitting when cruising then the internal layout tends to be "non-reverse" -- saloon at the front, then kitchen/bathroom/bedroom, which means regular through traffic through all of them, so a walk-through bathroom and wide beds are not ideal.

 

A cruiser stern is great when travelling in good weather, but truly horrible when it's cold/windy/rainy (unless you have a massive pram hood, urghh...) -- fine if you can just stay moored up, but this depends on your lifestyle and need to move (or not), OK if you're a liveaboard who is happy to not move for up to several days (we all know how the English weather is...) but this isn't the case for everyone, especially if you have to move to avoid overstaying or fill/empty tanks. A reverse layout (bedroom at the front) can be more sociable when cruising since the internal living area is next to the steerer, a normal one puts it next to the bows which is great for everyone except the steerer (unless everyone is on the rear deck). Walk-through bathroom and wider beds fit better with a reverse layout because you pass through them much less often.

 

A semi-trad is definitely better for the steerer than a cruiser (but not as good as a trad...) in bad weather, especially if the semi-trad section is short enough to give better shelter, engine access is better than a trad without an engine room, and more sociable for the steerer than a trad (unless there are only two of you, both standing in the hatch). Again reverse layout can work well, it then puts the inside living space next to the outside stern seating and steerer -- but this then isolates the bow seating, and you don't get a saloon with a good forward view.

 

There's no ideal solution, all three stern layouts (and normal/reverse layout, and corridor/walk-through bathrooms) have pros and cons, and all these choices have people who love or hate them for different reasons. Anyone considering buying/building a boat needs to be aware of all the pros/cons and decide what works best for them; no choice is "wrong" or "right". A good option is to try out some of the differences (e.g. by hiring different boats over the years) but this isn't going to work for somebody who's looking to move onto the canals and hasn't done this first...

 

Edited by IanD
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59 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Pictures please!

Her's a picture of mine.....

Not a very good view but -

The shower head is mouted high on the cabin wall to the right in the picture.

The shower curtain is long as well as wide and runs across the full depth of the batoroom and tucks away to the left in the picture.

The arrangement means that the bath can be used as such or as a shower and enought room to dry oneself afrer a shower without a constant fight with the curtain.

The bath can be used with our camping twin tub  when needed.

image.jpeg.e9c9bd162837576d90eb5b23ae68d71b.jpeg 

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Apologies as this not a layout issue per se, but if you're going to be slow-paced cruisers like me (cruising about once per week), I would give some thought to solar panels- as many as will fit whilst still allowing you to walk the roof. In the summer, good solar power will save you running the engine for hours to charge the batteries - and over a period of years, it might pay for itself in saved fuel, engine wear, servicing, etc. 

 

Also, one thing I discovered was that on my 38 hp engine, its a bit difficult/expensive to upgrade the 'domestic' alternator, which is a bit underpowered.  Most 40+ hp engines seem to have the capability to charge at 170 amps or so, which means quicker charging, and again less fuel used, less engine wear etc.

 

I would be tempted to get diesel CH installed as well as your stove, because there are plenty of cool or even chilly mornings in Spring and Autumn where you don't really need to light up the stove, you just need a quick bit of warmth for half an hour or so to make it more comfortable. 

 

On your actual question of layout, I would visit a big broker like Whilton where you can potentially see a good number of different layouts (and different fittings etc)- there's nothing like actually being in a space to decide whether you like it or not. 

 

Personally, I love space, and if I were designing from scratch, I'd consider ditching the fixed dinette, and adding a drop-down leaf type table to the cabin side.

 

Just a thought, but to be as sure as you can, I'd even try hiring a boat with your preferred layout (or close to it)- even if just for a few days.

You can find out annoying little consequences sometimes only by living in the space for a bit, and its such a big investment that you want to be a sure as you can. 

 

My shower is so compact it is almost unusable for a taller/wider person, for example- and so I'd now be more inclined towards a walk-through bathroom if going from scratch. 

 

One other thing that might influence your design is cruising style. E.g. do you want to spend a week or so in quiet or remote mooring spots, or will you be in amongst the groups of boats that line the banks in and around towns and villages?

I like to moor in the quieter spots generally (ie not necessarily very close to water and facilities), so the size of your water tank becomes a constraint. My water can last 12-14 days at a push, but with two that's not going to be easy, so thats worth a thought. If you're speccing from new, I would also get a water gauge installed, as its always a bit of guesswork as to how many days of water you have left. 

 

And toilets.... dont even get us started on toilets 😀

 

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On 11/09/2021 at 22:48, matty40s said:

Cant beat a boat with the bathroom at the back end as a boat mover....saves taking a whizz off the side in a tunnel.

Actually an interesting point though because I fitted (and prefer) a walk through rear bathroom on my own boat on boats Im moving I prefer a reverse layout- just cos I can make coffeee and sarnies without stopping.

So proves how you are mainly using the boat makes the layout decision for you..

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1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

[snip]

One other thing that might influence your design is cruising style. E.g. do you want to spend a week or so in quiet or remote mooring spots, or will you be in amongst the groups of boats that line the banks in and around towns and villages?

I like to moor in the quieter spots generally (ie not necessarily very close to water and facilities), so the size of your water tank becomes a constraint. My water can last 12-14 days at a push, but with two that's not going to be easy, so thats worth a thought. If you're speccing from new, I would also get a water gauge installed, as its always a bit of guesswork as to how many days of water you have left. 

 

And toilets.... dont even get us started on toilets 😀

 

 

Of course having a big water tank that lasts for a couple of weeks isn't much help if your toilet capacity runs out after half that... 😉

 

Agree about the water gauge, I've never understood why they're not just a standard fitment on narrowboats. Same for fuel -- having to guess or dip the tank went out over a hundred years ago on cars...

Edited by IanD
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1 hour ago, BEngo said:

Whilst you are sorting the layout, think about weights, and services.

Try to balance the heavy things ( stove, cooker, washing machine, bog tank, beer store)  on either side of the boat and try to keep the gas and water pipes all on one side.  You builder will thank you, it will make ballasting easier and you will not have the worry of sevices pipes disappearing under the floor. Gas in the bilge is never a good idea.

 

Make sure there is easy access to the bilge, preferably all along, but at least near the back of the cabin.  It WILL, one day,  get water in it and you want to be able to dry it out.  A fan, blowing air from the bilge across the fridge condenser, switched by the fridge electronics,  is a Good Thing for both bilge and fridge.

If you are having 240V then , like a house,  have plenty of sockets. They don't eat owt and save having trailing cables.

 

N

 

If you are going to have a pump-out toilet with a big tank, if it's possible try to get it on or near the centreline of the boat so it doesn't lean over as the tank fills up. Though at least this means a level gauge is less essential...

 

Speaking as a beer lover, you'd have to be *very* thirsty to need to worry about the weight of your beer store unbalancing the boat... 😉

Edited by IanD
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