Any idea why my engines won't run ?

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I'll remember this story next time I watch "Saving Lives at Sea"

 

I was thinking the same, and my understanding of the readiness and ability of the RNLI to rescue a boat in trouble has changed markedly as a result of this incident.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

Alan, Did you phone or VHF the RNLI direct, via the Coastguard or send a message on channel 8 or 16 (I think those are the relevant channel numbers).

 

I am a bit surprised the coastguard did not put out an all stations call asking for  assistance.

 

 

First call was (VHF) to Caernarfon Victoria Dock (Marina) to see if they had a tug or anyone available to make a tow. I didn't want to "tie up" a lifeboat if other options were available. But, because the water was falling they could not get out of the (tidal) docks so could not help.

 

Caernarfon contacted (presumably by phone) the Holyhead Coastguard, who in turn called us on Ch 16 VHF, and after contact made moved us to CH 73 (channel 16 is only to make contact, you must them move to a 'working channel' and leave Ch 16 free)

Gave them details of our situation, position, POBs etc and was told to stand by.

 

The Coastguard contacted the Lifeboat, and came back with the information that it was committed already for at least an hour and could we attract a passing boat to tow us into deeper (safer) water and anchor up and await further information.

 

We informed them that we had managed to get a tow and the rest of the story was 'as above'.

 

My 'little' Baofeng £9 handheld VHF performed as well, if not better than the 'installed' 25w 'boat fixed set'

 

The Tender was loaded up with the 'grab bag', extra fuel etc & all 3 of us (dog included) wore lifejackets, flask was filled and sandwiches made.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am appalled that that oil cooler/heat exchanger had no lip for the seal to grip. It's an accident just asking to happen. Apart from changing the unit I am not sure what can be done apart from vigilance now you know the problem.

 

 

My view too. Rubber, neoprene etc when squashed down under a worm-drive clip like that tends to take up it's new shape, causing the tightness of the worm-drive clip to loosen with time. Apart from falling off, this type of joint also tends to leak and need periodic tightening. Basically, rubber tube, worm-drive fixed onto plain-end pipe is asking for trouble. So much so that on cars there is invariably an enlarged lip around the end of any pipe end designed to have a flexible hose attached to it. Same needs to be done here. Those vertical pipes should be terminated with a 'barb' type of hose fitting, or the ends swaged out to form a ridge. 

 

But on looking again I see those rubber fittings are simply pipe size reducers, connecting large solid pipes to smaller, solid pipes. They could be replaced with proper rigid brass or copper pipe reducers perhaps. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

But on looking again I see those rubber fittings are simply pipe size reducers, connecting large solid pipes to smaller, solid pipes. They could be replaced with proper rigid brass or copper pipe reducers perhaps. 

 

The 'large' pipes are part of the feed into the gearbox cooling system AND the engine heat-exchanger. They are 'stuffed full' of little tubes. The material is some 'hard plastic'.

The 'small pipe' is a 1" ID rubber hose from the outlet side of the water pump.

So, yes basically it is a 'reducer' the same as those used on the Engine heat-exchanger.

 

Blue circle is the sea water pump. The rubber hose you can see is the feed INTO the Sea water pump.

Green circle is a short length of hose from pump OUTLET connecting to the 'big pipe'

Yellow circle is the disconnected rubber 'reducer'

 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The 'large' pipes are part of the feed into the gearbox cooling system AND the engine heat-exchanger. They are 'stuffed full' of little tubes. The material is some 'hard plastic'.

 

In which case it is hard to understand what those large pipes are doing, unless they have some further hidden pipe connections out of view.

 

There must be a reason not to take the two large pipes out and replace them with straight lengths of 1" tube, but what is it? 

[Tony Brooks]

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

In which case it is hard to understand what those large pipes are doing, unless they have some further hidden pipe connections out of view.

 

There must be a reason not to take the two large pipes out and replace them with straight lengths of 1" tube, but what is it? 

 

They seem to be a very common way of doing the reduction on oil coolers, but the coolers I have seen have the ridge. More "value engineering" I fear or outsourcing to the cheapest supplier.

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

They seem to be a very common way of doing the reduction on oil coolers,

 

Oh so they are actually oil coolers? 

 

Are oil pipes hidden from view then? 

 

Just a case of buying and plubing in some proper marine oil coolers then, I guess. 

 

(These oil coolers are made of plastic? Jeez!!)

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Oh so they are actually oil coolers? Ah I see now.

 

Just a case of buying and plumbing in some proper marine oil coolers then, I guess. 

 

(These oil coolers are made of plastic? Jeez!!)

 

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Oh so they are actually oil coolers? 

 

Are oil pipes hidden from view then? 

 

Just a case of buying and plubing in some proper marine oil coolers then, I guess. 

 

(These oil coolers are made of plastic? Jeez!!)

 

 

You can see one  oil pipe in one of the photos.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

I was thinking the same, and my understanding of the readiness and ability of the RNLI to rescue a boat in trouble has changed markedly as a result of this incident.

 

 

A boat and crew can't be in two places at once

 

[Neil2]

Gosh I've only just seen the bit about the poor dog...  I remember a friend of ours used to do a lot of sea passages on a motor sailer with her two dogs and she said they just simply wouldn't "go" on the deck, whatever she tried, so it was often a mad dash for shore in the tender.  

 

16 hours though.... Crikey what wouldn't  I give for that degree of bladder control. 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Neil2

[cuthound]

23 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If you can get a diesel engine to burn that water you will be a billionaire overnight.  Not like you Alan to skimp on maintenance so badly.

 

That looks more like recycled beer than water to me! 😂😅

[Iain_S]

Not sure if they still do it, but Practical Boat Owner magazine used to run a series entitled "I learned from that". Would make for a good episode!

[Alan de Enfield]

To summarise :

 

1) Know that the water ingress was caused by the oil cooler / heat exchanger pipe coming adrift.

 

2) Have chased down the cause of the water in the fuel tank (water level over the top of the tank caused by 1) above). The inspection hatch cover (under the duck-boards) was found to have a ring of silicone around it, which was 'loose' and just pulled out from under the lid.

On removing the lid saw that the Threaded 'ring' around the hole in the tank was damaged from about 6-o'clock to 9-o'clock (around 25% of the cicumference) meaning that there was no thread there for the lid to screw down onto, and no 'upstand' so any water on the top of the tank would just drain straight into the tank.

 

3) Its good to have friends with useful skills, knowledge or equipment.

 

4) One friend delivered a 1000 litre IBC this morning whilst another came with his diesel transfer pump. In short order we had pumped out 200 litres of absolutely clear sea-water and to be sure it was all out, about 30 or 40 litres of diesel.

 

5) Always carry plenty of spares. I have 3 fuel filters on each engine and carry 12 as spares, so its replace filter time.

 

6) Replaced filters on Port engine, primed with 'fresh' diesel from a 5 litre can, bled the whole system, engine started and run for a couple of minutes, at least got the salt water out of the bores and injection pump.

 

7) Hoping to get Starboard engine filters done, primed and run later today / tonight then connect back up to the tank and try running 'properly'.

 

 

Edit to add picture :

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

That looks like it's made of plastic. Even in undamaged condition there's no way that would meet the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme for an inland craft. 

What other short cuts do seagoing boatbuilders take with items which have much greater safety importance at sea than on a muddy ditch?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, David Mack said:

That looks like it's made of plastic. Even in undamaged condition there's no way that would meet the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme for an inland craft. 

 

 

Surely you are not misguided enough to assume that having a BSSC means it complies with the BSS.

 

It has passed the BSS twice whilst in my ownership.

(we were based on the River Trent for 5 years)

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

 

That looks like it's made of plastic. Even in undamaged condition there's no way that would meet the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme for an inland craft. 

What other short cuts do seagoing boatbuilders take with items which have much greater safety importance at sea than on a muddy ditch?

 

I agree, if it were mine I would be looking for a disk of suitably thick steel drilled to take the screws that hold that broken plastic down and a suitable gasket - closed cell neoprene?

[Momac]

18 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

That looks like it's made of plastic. Even in undamaged condition there's no way that would meet the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme for an inland craft. 

What other short cuts do seagoing boatbuilders take with items which have much greater safety importance at sea than on a muddy ditch?

Does the BSS have any standards about oil coolers? 

21 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

What other short cuts do seagoing boatbuilders take with items which have much greater safety importance at sea than on a muddy ditch?

I believe oil coolers usually use the coolant circuit. 

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Does the BSS have any standards about oil coolers? 

I believe oil coolers usually use the coolant circuit. 

 

Not typically on indirect raw water cooled boats. Sea inlet, oil cooler(s), pump, heat exchanger, exhaust is the usual way and If Alan's had been done that way he would have overheated and possibly wrecked an impeller rather than flood the boat. However, that way has too many joints that if they leaked would simply suck air in and compromise the raw water flow, so I modified most of the fleet to be like Alan's with the coolers on the pressure side of the pump.

[magnetman]

I reckon it would be quite a good idea to fit a good quality night vision CCTV camera in an engine room with wet exhausts, linked to a dedicated LCD screen near the helm. 

 One of my boats which is a twin screw seagoing motor cruiser has keel cooling for both engines but even on that I think if I did venture out anywhere in open water I would put a camera in the engine room just so I could keep an eye on the engine status and the situation in the area generally. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by magnetman

[jetzi]

Gosh Alan, that sounds terrifying I am glad you, boat and family came out OK. What stopped the pump continuing to fill you up and sinking you? Just the fact that the water got into the tank and stopped the engines?

 

Definitely think you did the right thing with the flare. Perhaps in retrospect you could have let the coast guard know that you had used one and managed to signal a boat as they suggested for a tow. But I would have thought they would be more understanding that this couldn't be a priority for you while you were in crisis.

 

I like the CCTV on the engine idea. If you have it recording it could also help diagnose how things went wrong, as well as when.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, jetzi said:

What stopped the pump continuing to fill you up and sinking you? Just the fact that the water got into the tank and stopped the engines?

 

Seeing the steam coming up thru' the floor boards I switched off the engine, the pump immediately stopped (it is driven off what is the air brakes compressor drive shaft when used in trucks)

[Bee]

I am no fan of even more layers of legislation and my knowledge of sea going stuff is limited and out of date but a code of practice or similar for canal boatbuilders might be a good idea. Most of us have very good reliable diesel engines but fuel tanks that are just a compartment formed by welding a bit of steel across a handy corner. Flush fitting filler caps with an 'O' ring must surely be a weak link, far better to have a stand pipe and a cap. Tanks really should have an access panel and a ring of bolts, thoroughly cleaning a sealed tank is next to impossible, It should be possible to shine a torch inside and get an arm in to clean the sludge out. Pressure testing tanks is all very well but not many tanks leak but a hell of a lot have water in them.  If your engine packs up on the Grand Union that's a nuisance but canal boats do use rivers and estuaries quite frequently these days and that is exactly the time when fuel sloshing about in a tank will turn into a cloudy watery mess,  just changing a filter probably won't help and that is much more than just a nuisance 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Bee said:

I am no fan of even more layers of legislation and my knowledge of sea going stuff is limited and out of date but a code of practice or similar for canal boatbuilders might be a good idea. Most of us have very good reliable diesel engines but fuel tanks that are just a compartment formed by welding a bit of steel across a handy corner. Flush fitting filler caps with an 'O' ring must surely be a weak link, far better to have a stand pipe and a cap. Tanks really should have an access panel and a ring of bolts, thoroughly cleaning a sealed tank is next to impossible, It should be possible to shine a torch inside and get an arm in to clean the sludge out. Pressure testing tanks is all very well but not many tanks leak but a hell of a lot have water in them.  If your engine packs up on the Grand Union that's a nuisance but canal boats do use rivers and estuaries quite frequently these days and that is exactly the time when fuel sloshing about in a tank will turn into a cloudy watery mess,  just changing a filter probably won't help and that is much more than just a nuisance 

 

Which is why inland boaters really need to drain any water from the bottom of their tanks at least annually. Unless the tank is more or less water free, emulsifying additives seem to just produce a much larger volume of emulsified fuel that I would not be confident would not start to demulsify in the filter and injection equipment.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Bee said:

I am no fan of even more layers of legislation and my knowledge of sea going stuff is limited and out of date but a code of practice or similar for canal boatbuilders might be a good idea. Most of us have very good reliable diesel engines but fuel tanks that are just a compartment formed by welding a bit of steel across a handy corner. Flush fitting filler caps with an 'O' ring must surely be a weak link, far better to have a stand pipe and a cap. Tanks really should have an access panel and a ring of bolts, thoroughly cleaning a sealed tank is next to impossible, It should be possible to shine a torch inside and get an arm in to clean the sludge out. Pressure testing tanks is all very well but not many tanks leak but a hell of a lot have water in them.  If your engine packs up on the Grand Union that's a nuisance but canal boats do use rivers and estuaries quite frequently these days and that is exactly the time when fuel sloshing about in a tank will turn into a cloudy watery mess,  just changing a filter probably won't help and that is much more than just a nuisance 

 

 

The RCD does cover this, so, any 'recreational' boat built post 1998 should comply with the regs :

 

 

Fuel system and fuel tanks

 

ER 5.2.1 The filling, storage, venting and fuel supply arrangements and installations shall be designed and installed so as to minimise the risk of fire and explosion.

 

ER 5.2.2 Fuel tanks -

Fuel tanks, lines and hoses shall be secured and separated or protected from any source of significant heat. The material the tanks are made of and their method of construction shall be according to their capacity and the type of fuel. All tank spaces shall be ventilated. Petrol shall be kept in tanks which do not form part of the hull and are:

(a) insulated from the engine compartment and from all other source of ignition;

(b) separated from living quarters. Diesel fuel may be kept in tanks that are integral with the hull.

 

Harmonised standard: BS EN ISO 10088:2013 Small craft - Permanently installed fuel systems BS EN ISO 21487:2012 Small craft - Permanently installed petrol and diesel fuel tanks

 

The requirements for installation of a fuel system on a boat with fixed fuel tanks are given in the harmonised standard BS EN ISO 10088 Permanently installed fuel systems and BS EN ISO 21487:2012 Small craft - Permanently installed petrol and diesel fuel tanks.

The requirement for petrol fuel tanks to be ‘insulated from the engine and all other sources of ignition’ is deemed to be complied with if

a) the clearance between the petrol tank and the engine is greater than 100 mm and

b) all electrical parts on the engine which could create a spark, and any other electrical components in the engine/fuel compartment, are ignition protected. To ensure that these components are ignition protected the boat builder should use a petrol engine that complies with BS EN ISO 15584 Inboard petrol engines - fuel and electrical system components (the engine manufacture should provide this confirmation) and for other parts, e.g. blower fan or electric bilge pump, use only components that have been CE marked in accordance with Annex II 1. The clearance between a petrol tank and any dry exhaust components must be greater than 250 mm, unless an equivalent thermal barrier is provided. For diesel engine installations, the engines used should comply with BS EN ISO 16147

Inboard diesel engines – Engine-mounted fuel and electrical components to ensure that the fuel components fitted on the engine by the engine manufacturer are safe. The engine manufacture should provide confirmation that the engine complies with this standard.

Fuel hose used in the system must be fire resistant if used in the engine compartment and Where fuel hose is used the standard requires that only fire-resistant hose to BS EN ISO 7840 may be used in the engine compartment. Such hose should be stamped to indicate compliance

 

This appears to be a requirement in  BS EN ISO 21487:2012

 

If there is a drain in a diesel oil tank, it shall be fitted with a shut-off valve having a plug that can be removed only with tools. Each tank shall have an inspection hatch with at least 150 mm diameter. The inspection hatch shall, as a rule, be located on top of the tank, but for diesel oil tanks it may also be on the tank side. There shall be access to the inspection hatch when the tank is in position.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Bee]

I didn't know that. Our boat has just that but I had to fix it myself (and damned awkward it was too) despite the shell being  apparently compliant at that stage of completion. I suppose there is room for an argument about whether its the 'boat builder' or the 'boat fitter' who has to fit the bits to the tank but that is a sensible rule. I bet there are many narrow and wide beam canal boats where that is not the case, I suspect that a good many canal boats are made by people who don't know much about boats at all.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Bee