Brian422 Posted September 10, 2021 Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 Recently checked polarity of 240 Volt sockets with mewl acquired device which detects any problems with supply and, depending on situation, illuminates a combination of LEDs and an audible tone. Now for the problem. Mains polarity on Shore Power correct - 3 LEDs illuminated and constant audible tone. Victron 3000 240 Volt output - 1 LED illuminated and warbling tone - Fault Live/Neutral reversed. Checked wiring all appeared ok until checked Consumer Unit. Although inputs to Double Pole RCD correct, Live Load output connect to gathered Neutral wires and Neutral Load output individual MCBs. Question is is this correct and an attempt to prevent Live wires being exposed when cover is removed or is wiring incorrect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted September 10, 2021 Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 Incorrect. Very! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 10, 2021 Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 48 minutes ago, Brian422 said: Recently checked polarity of 240 Volt sockets with mewl acquired device which detects any problems with supply and, depending on situation, illuminates a combination of LEDs and an audible tone. Now for the problem. Mains polarity on Shore Power correct - 3 LEDs illuminated and constant audible tone. Victron 3000 240 Volt output - 1 LED illuminated and warbling tone - Fault Live/Neutral reversed. Checked wiring all appeared ok until checked Consumer Unit. Although inputs to Double Pole RCD correct, Live Load output connect to gathered Neutral wires and Neutral Load output individual MCBs. Question is is this correct and an attempt to prevent Live wires being exposed when cover is removed or is wiring incorrect? Its completely arse about face. I cant think why anybody would wire it in that way. Hopefully it wasnt someone claiming to be a 'professional'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian422 Posted September 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 I've owned boat since 2009, built by a very well known and respected builder; electrics have remained unchanged since. Photo orientation has changed but unit is conventionally mounted. Would reversing the Double Pole RCD inputs resolve this problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 10, 2021 Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 8 minutes ago, Brian422 said: I've owned boat since 2009, built by a very well known and respected builder; electrics have remained unchanged since. Photo orientation has changed but unit is conventionally mounted. Would reversing the Double Pole RCD inputs resolve this problem? Personallly I would seek professional advice from a reliable source. I certainly wouldnt be swapping anything. That isnt a particularly tidy install IMHO. For one thing I can see loose strands on the neutrals. It says to me the installer wasnt overly careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George and Dragon Posted September 10, 2021 Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 On first sight the answer is yes. The RCD main switch is the opposite polarity from the CU. Ideally you should replace the RCD with one that has the Neutral connection on the left. Is the CU brand the same as the RCD and MCBs? AS HN says it's not the tidiest of installations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted September 10, 2021 Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 Can you explain about the two sources of power - shore and inverter? Is the Victron a Combi that passes through the shore power, or is there a selector switch to choose between shore and inverter? There appears to be only one power input cable connected to the RCD line, which presumably feeds in both shore and inverter power. So if the shore power is correct and the inverter is incorrect, I don’t see how it can be a problem in the CU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted September 10, 2021 Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 4 hours ago, Brian422 said: I've owned boat since 2009, built by a very well known and respected builder; electrics have remained unchanged since. Also, the wiring is non RCD / RCR compliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted September 10, 2021 Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said: Also, the wiring is non RCD / RCR compliant. Oh it definitely looks like RCR wiring - but I'm guessing you mean the new rebadged Recreational Craft Regulations 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian422 Posted September 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2021 Thank you all for your thoughts, questions and suggestions. Shore power and Travel Power into 2 position switch; output to Victron Multi Plus, output to RCD Consumer Unit with 3 outputs (Port Sockets, Starboard Sockets and Emersion Heater). Original problem indicated Live/Neutral reversal but only from Inverter; Shore Power correct. Very strange. Decided to check input voltage and found 240 Volts A.C. on Neutral input to Inverter. Checked Shore Power input and found Live/Neutral wires reversed. Now have Live/Neutral reversal indication for both Shore and Inverter outputs at Mains Sockets. Understandable given the reversed outputs from RCD. Now have to try and source RCD with appropriate polarity inputs. Just one more thing. Suspect Shore Line Live/Neutral wires reversed, NOT by boat builder but more likely performed by painters during repaint. Regards and thanks Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine Posted September 11, 2021 Report Share Posted September 11, 2021 A suitable 100A 30mA RCD with left hand neutral is available from Toolstation: https://www.toolstation.com/axiom-rcd-a-type/p20302 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted September 11, 2021 Report Share Posted September 11, 2021 On 10/09/2021 at 12:43, Brian422 said: Checked wiring all appeared ok until checked Consumer Unit. Although inputs to Double Pole RCD correct, Live Load output connect to gathered Neutral wires and Neutral Load output individual MCBs. Have you checked this with a meter or just a visual like the photos. The live and neutral appear to go into the correct connections Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian422 Posted September 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2021 Thanks Pennine, that'll make it easier. Perhaps I can get Screwfix to deliver 😉. Good thought Ditchcrawler. Have checked and all Neutral wires are both visually and electrically connected. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianh Posted September 13, 2021 Report Share Posted September 13, 2021 (edited) ... Edited September 13, 2021 by adrianh Deleted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian422 Posted September 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 Purchased and installed Axiom RCD suggested by Pennine. Happy to report Mains polarity correct when connected to Shore Power and Inverter. As per mentioned, my narrowboat was built by a well respected builder with Boat Safety Certificate may, or may not, have employed qualified electrician. However, I would respectfully suggest purchasing a Mains Socket Tester for less than £10 might be a good investment. Regards and thanks Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Brian422 said: As per mentioned, my narrowboat was built by a well respected builder with Boat Safety Certificate may, or may not, have employed qualified electrician. Just remember that the 230v AC system checks in the BSS are not 'compulsory' and if anything is wrong is is not a BSS failure. Have a look at the various sections in the BSS, if it has an "R" next to the section title it is a requirement, if it has an "A" it is just an 'advisory' and failure to comply is not a BSS Fail. Pretty much all of the 12v DC section is compulsory "R", but 230v AC isn't - why ??? A couple of examples : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 But AC correct installation would be mandatory if the boat is subject to the RCD/RCR suerly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said: But AC correct installation would be mandatory if the boat is subject to the RCD/RCR suerly? Isn't RCD/R self certification? Therefore of even less value than the BSS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, MtB said: Isn't RCD/R self certification? Therefore of even less value than the BSS. Only if it is a 'self-build', If it a commercially built boat, post 1998 then the RCD / RCR would be mandatory. Of course, with self certification, you are committing fraud if you signed it to say it is built in accordance with the relevant specifications, and it subsequently turns out not to be compliant. Edited September 20, 2021 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: Only if it is a 'self-build', If it a commercially built boat, post 1998 then the RCD / RCR would be mandatory. So who certifies a commercially built boat? AIUI it is still the builder. So the builder wot dunnit wrong, self-certifies he dunnit right. So that's all fine then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, MtB said: So who certifies a commercially built boat? AIUI it is still the builder. I think that was correct, but not so sure now. It really just goes to show the lack of protection the RCR/RCD gives inland customers. Unless someone is killed, I doubt Trading Standards would have any intension of taking action. However, that is so typical of legislation nowadays. Leave it up to companies to comply, don't check to see if they do, unless a disaster/death/serious accident happens. And when it does, ensure the minions are scapegoated and the bosses get off virtually Scott free. The actual companies seem to be rarely charged or punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted September 20, 2021 Report Share Posted September 20, 2021 3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said: Only if it is a 'self-build', If it a commercially built boat, post 1998 then the RCD / RCR would be mandatory. Of course, with self certification, you are committing fraud if you signed it to say it is built in accordance with the relevant specifications, and it subsequently turns out not to be compliant. Like every narrowboat fitted with those piddly navigation lights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detling Posted September 21, 2021 Report Share Posted September 21, 2021 18 hours ago, Tony Brooks said: However, that is so typical of legislation nowadays. Leave it up to companies to comply, don't check to see if they do, unless a disaster/death/serious accident happens. And when it does, ensure the minions are scapegoated and the bosses get off virtually Scott free. The actual companies seem to be rarely charged or punished. Describes Grenfell Tower perfectly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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