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Electrical Anomaly.


Brian422

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Recently checked polarity of 240 Volt sockets with mewl acquired device which detects any problems with supply and, depending on situation, illuminates a combination of LEDs and an audible tone.

Now for the problem.

Mains polarity on Shore Power correct - 3 LEDs illuminated and constant audible tone.

Victron 3000 240 Volt output - 1 LED illuminated and warbling tone - Fault Live/Neutral reversed.

Checked wiring all appeared ok until checked Consumer Unit. Although inputs to Double Pole RCD correct, Live Load output connect to gathered Neutral wires and Neutral Load output individual  MCBs.

Question is is this correct and an attempt to prevent Live wires being exposed when cover is removed or is wiring incorrect?

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48 minutes ago, Brian422 said:

Recently checked polarity of 240 Volt sockets with mewl acquired device which detects any problems with supply and, depending on situation, illuminates a combination of LEDs and an audible tone.

Now for the problem.

Mains polarity on Shore Power correct - 3 LEDs illuminated and constant audible tone.

Victron 3000 240 Volt output - 1 LED illuminated and warbling tone - Fault Live/Neutral reversed.

Checked wiring all appeared ok until checked Consumer Unit. Although inputs to Double Pole RCD correct, Live Load output connect to gathered Neutral wires and Neutral Load output individual  MCBs.

Question is is this correct and an attempt to prevent Live wires being exposed when cover is removed or is wiring incorrect?

 

Its completely arse about face.

 

I cant think why anybody would wire it in that way. Hopefully it wasnt someone claiming to be a 'professional'.

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I've owned boat since 2009, built by a very well known and respected builder; electrics have remained unchanged since. 

16312792193737621422763525791570.jpg.f562bb62fafb820f1d6ae1df9fbdd37b.jpg

Photo orientation has changed but unit is conventionally mounted.

Would reversing the Double Pole RCD inputs resolve this problem?

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8 minutes ago, Brian422 said:

I've owned boat since 2009, built by a very well known and respected builder; electrics have remained unchanged since. 

16312792193737621422763525791570.jpg.f562bb62fafb820f1d6ae1df9fbdd37b.jpg

Photo orientation has changed but unit is conventionally mounted.

Would reversing the Double Pole RCD inputs resolve this problem?

 

Personallly I would seek professional advice from a reliable source.

 

I certainly wouldnt be swapping anything.

 

That isnt a particularly tidy install IMHO. For one thing I can see loose strands on the neutrals. It says to me the installer wasnt overly careful.

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Can you explain about the two sources of power - shore and inverter? Is the Victron a Combi that passes through the shore power, or is there a selector switch to choose between shore and inverter? There appears to be only one power input cable connected to the RCD line, which presumably feeds in both shore and inverter power. So if the shore power is correct and the inverter is incorrect, I don’t see how it can be a problem in the CU.

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Thank you all for your thoughts, questions and suggestions. 

Shore power and Travel Power into 2 position switch; output to Victron Multi Plus, output to RCD Consumer Unit with 3 outputs (Port Sockets, Starboard Sockets and Emersion Heater).

Original problem indicated Live/Neutral reversal but only from Inverter; Shore Power correct. Very strange.

Decided to check input voltage and found 240 Volts A.C. on Neutral input to Inverter.

Checked Shore Power input and found Live/Neutral wires reversed.

Now have Live/Neutral reversal indication for both Shore and Inverter outputs at Mains Sockets. Understandable given the reversed outputs from RCD. Now have to try and source RCD with appropriate polarity inputs.

Just one more thing. Suspect Shore Line Live/Neutral wires reversed, NOT by boat builder but more likely performed by painters during repaint.

Regards and thanks

Brian.

 

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On 10/09/2021 at 12:43, Brian422 said:

 

Checked wiring all appeared ok until checked Consumer Unit. Although inputs to Double Pole RCD correct, Live Load output connect to gathered Neutral wires and Neutral Load output individual  MCBs.

 

Have you checked this with a meter or just a visual like the photos. The live and neutral appear to go into the correct connections

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Purchased and installed Axiom RCD suggested by Pennine.

Happy to report Mains polarity correct when connected to Shore Power and Inverter. 

As per mentioned, my narrowboat was built by a well respected builder with Boat Safety Certificate may, or may not, have employed qualified electrician. However, I would respectfully suggest purchasing a Mains Socket Tester for less than £10 might be a good investment.

Regards and thanks

Brian.

 

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1 hour ago, Brian422 said:

As per mentioned, my narrowboat was built by a well respected builder with Boat Safety Certificate may, or may not, have employed qualified electrician.

 

Just remember that the 230v AC system checks in the BSS are not 'compulsory' and if anything is wrong is is not a BSS failure.

 

Have a look at the various sections in the BSS, if it has an "R"  next to the section title it is a requirement, if it has an "A" it is just an 'advisory' and failure to comply is not a BSS Fail.

Pretty much all of the 12v DC section is compulsory "R", but 230v AC isn't - why ???

 

A couple of examples :

 

 

Screenshot (592)_LI.jpg

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8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Isn't RCD/R self certification? 

 

Therefore of even less value than the BSS.

 

Only if it is a 'self-build', If it a commercially built boat, post 1998 then the RCD / RCR would be mandatory.

 

Of course, with self certification, you are committing fraud if you signed it to say it is built in accordance with the relevant specifications, and it subsequently turns out not to be compliant.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Only if it is a 'self-build', If it a commercially built boat, post 1998 then the RCD / RCR would be mandatory.

 

So who certifies a commercially built boat? AIUI it is still the builder. 

So the builder wot dunnit wrong, self-certifies he dunnit right. So that's all fine then. 

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2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

So who certifies a commercially built boat? AIUI it is still the builder. 

 

I think that was correct, but not so sure now. It really just goes to show the lack of protection the RCR/RCD gives inland customers. Unless someone is killed, I doubt Trading Standards would have any intension of taking action. However, that is so typical of legislation nowadays. Leave it up to companies to comply, don't check to see if they do, unless a disaster/death/serious accident happens. And when it does, ensure the minions are scapegoated and the bosses get off virtually Scott free. The actual companies seem to be rarely charged or punished.

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Only if it is a 'self-build', If it a commercially built boat, post 1998 then the RCD / RCR would be mandatory.

 

Of course, with self certification, you are committing fraud if you signed it to say it is built in accordance with the relevant specifications, and it subsequently turns out not to be compliant.

Like every narrowboat fitted with those piddly navigation lights

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18 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

However, that is so typical of legislation nowadays. Leave it up to companies to comply, don't check to see if they do, unless a disaster/death/serious accident happens. And when it does, ensure the minions are scapegoated and the bosses get off virtually Scott free. The actual companies seem to be rarely charged or punished.

Describes Grenfell Tower perfectly.

 

  • Greenie 1
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