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Over plating ...Bag a bargain?


Dignity

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I know this is a thorny subject that's been covered before. I had a boat surveyed (still waiting for the full report to drop). Reputable boat yard are recommending a full replate of the sides (boats only 17 years old as well 😳). I know most would walk away but... all the work is being done at the brokers expense ££££... , obviously I would get the finished work all signed off by the surveyor and it's a recognised workshop no cowboys that I can see the work done daily, is there an argument for bagging a bargin, It's a 57 ft with a nice quality fitout that's sat in the marina with no galvanic isolation for years. I'm thinking price would be in the region of the mid 40k range perhaps. Re sale would be low..insurance a possible problem, there must be plenty of overplayed boats on the system though.

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A 2004 boat that needs overplating! 

Alarm bells ringing!

Was it built in 2004,or registered with CRT in 2004?

It could have been on non CRT waters for some time.If it has been sitting in a marina for years with no galvanic corrosion,then what sort of corrosion does it have?

I think more questions need to be asked about this boat.

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17 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

A 2004 boat that needs overplating! 

Alarm bells ringing!

Was it built in 2004,or registered with CRT in 2004?

It could have been on non CRT waters for some time.If it has been sitting in a marina for years with no galvanic corrosion,then what sort of corrosion does it have?

I think more questions need to be asked about this boat.

Once it's replated  does it matter why it rusted? In effect, assuming the bottom is ok, you've basically got a new hull. That's how I regard the work done on mine, which included the bottom.

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If the broker is paying for overplating then they must own the boat (I.e. not selling it on behalf of a client). Check this, as buying from the owner in the course of business gives you more consumer rights.

 

A boat that has corroded to needing a full overplate of the sides in just 17 years has clearly been kept in an unfavourable environment. I would be concerned that the baseplate may also be badly corroded. Has this been properly surveyed and demonstrated to be still sound? If not I would be looking for that to be overplated too. And with a full epoxy two pack paint job on the hull sides and bottom to minimise further corrosion.

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I'm with Arthur on this. Would be good to know why the sides are so bad and equally why the bottom is apparently OK but you do have a chance now to make it better than it was. I would try to get shotblasted and primed steel for the work and not just common steel plate then you can put decent epoxy paint on it 3 - 4 coats and whilst the work is being done grind/ scrape/blast the bottom and epoxy that with 3 - 4 coats and then you can feel happy that it is better than new. Others will  disagree.

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2 hours ago, Dignity said:

I know this is a thorny subject that's been covered before. I had a boat surveyed (still waiting for the full report to drop). Reputable boat yard are recommending a full replate of the sides (boats only 17 years old as well 😳). I know most would walk away but... all the work is being done at the brokers expense ££££... , obviously I would get the finished work all signed off by the surveyor and it's a recognised workshop no cowboys that I can see the work done daily, is there an argument for bagging a bargin, It's a 57 ft with a nice quality fitout that's sat in the marina with no galvanic isolation for years. I'm thinking price would be in the region of the mid 40k range perhaps. Re sale would be low..insurance a possible problem, there must be plenty of overplayed boats on the system though.

 

Despite what anyone on here might say, the worry is that if you want to sell the boat in future, it's value is going to be well reduced, or it should be.  It's fine in my book to have a boat overplated if it's "you" that's doing it.  But from a prospective buyers point of view, a previously overplated boat is a dodgy proposition.

 

But in any event mid £40k is too much even if it's nice inside.  

 

Don't make someone else's problem your problem.  If it's a Whilton or Venetian boat say and they bought it in, then found out it needs welding up, they should take the hit not recoup their losses by selling it at the same price as a "straight" boat. 

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I spent nine grand on getting mine plated,  because I knew and liked the boat (I'd had it 25 years by then), and it was a lot cheaper than buying another one. The resale price didn't worry me as I won't sell it until I can't run it any more, and I'd be surprised if it was worth more than peanuts anyway. But I knew I could never afford another one.

So if it's going to be your one and only boat, it's probably worth it  as long as the bottom's ok and you're happy with fitout, engine and price. If you're buying it as a starter and mean to trade up, it may be an error because the overplating may lower the value, though I don't really see why it should, but apparently it does.

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48 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I spent nine grand on getting mine plated,  because I knew and liked the boat (I'd had it 25 years by then), and it was a lot cheaper than buying another one. The resale price didn't worry me as I won't sell it until I can't run it any more, and I'd be surprised if it was worth more than peanuts anyway. But I knew I could never afford another one.

So if it's going to be your one and only boat, it's probably worth it  as long as the bottom's ok and you're happy with fitout, engine and price. If you're buying it as a starter and mean to trade up, it may be an error because the overplating may lower the value, though I don't really see why it should, but apparently it does.

 

It's ok if you have provenance, but how many of us would buy a narrowboat if we had no idea whatsoever who built it?

 

I took a fancy to a Sagar Marine boat a few years ago, I've always liked the lines of their boats, but when I took a closer look, even though it was in the water I could tell it had been overplated.  The broker didn't know who had done it, in fact he didn't realise it had been reshoed until he checked the sales details.  I think they still wanted £40k for it and at that level it just simply isn't worth the risk.

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Overplating was ment sorry..managed to talk to the surveyor..he favours puddle welding. Base plate and counter all acceptable. Will in all likelyhood be walking away from this as I suspect the broker will not be prepared to lower to an acceptable price for what is basically a project boat.

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8 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

In effect, assuming the bottom is ok, you've basically got a new hull. That's how I regard the work done on mine, which included the bottom.

 

Yes, but only if the work was done properly, and in my opinion properly means replated rather than overplated.

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2 hours ago, Goliath said:

Just to point out :

 

the OP said replating and not over plating 

 

Big difference. 
 

Assuming the OP did mean to state  replating and not over plating. 

If it is "replating" rather than "overplating", then the "nice quality fitout" isn't going to survive.

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Overplating will affect the vesel stability and will require a re-assessment of the stbility data and the RCD/RCR compliance.

The boat is only 17 years old so will fall under the RCD rules

 

Just for interest :

 

 

 

Feature article written by Alan Broomfield MIIMS, who tackles the thorny subject of overplating on steel hulled vessels, in particular Dutch barges and Narrowboats.

It is common practice when in the field surveying steel vessels to find mild steel plates welded to the hull, a practice regularly carried out on leisure vessels as a permanent repair. If any defects are found on the shell of a metal boat during a survey, surveyors are all too quick to recommend that the area concerned be overplated. Marine surveyors who deal with steel vessels will find that very often – Dutch barges and canal boats in particular – are frequently heavily overplated and should remember at all times that such overplating does NOT constitute a repair. It merely hides the defect.

 

 

Doubling or overplating can only ever be regarded as bad practice, a cheap bodge job and is intellectually dishonest. It is often carried out on leisure vessels to cover over areas of pitting which is not necessarily the best solution. Pitting, if small in area and localised, is often best dealt with by back filling the pits with welding rather than extensive overplating.

 

................ (you) should remember that overplating, though a common practice, is often carried out without thought as to the unintended consequences.
We should realise that it adds weight to the vessel’s structure without adding much compensating volume and, as a direct result, the vessel necessarily sinks lower in the water. It also has a number of other unintended and often unrealised side effects.

1. By increasing the draft, it reduces the available freeboard and, therefore, the amount of reserve buoyancy.
2. It also, therefore, reduces the transverse metacentric radius (BMT), and slightly, increases the height of the centre of buoyancy (KB) usually with very little compensating reduction in the height of the centre of gravity (KG) so that the end result is a reduction in the metacentric height (GM) and a negative alteration to the characteristics of the statical stability curve i.e. a reduction in the maximum GZ value and the range of positive statical stability. [The average metacentric height of a narrowboat is about 150 mm (6 inches)].
3. It may also, depending upon where the overplating is sited, alter both the longitudinal trim and the transverse heel of the vessel with further indeterminate alterations in her statical stability curve.
4. It lowers the deck edge immersion angle and, therefore, any downflooding angle(s).
5. The double plating is usually not secured to the primary supporting structure – the shell side framing. It is also rarely fitted with centre plate plug welds and is dependent only on the edge weld for security.
6. The double plating is secured only at its edges and the greater the area of plate, the smaller the length of the attachment weld per unit area and, therefore, the greater the stresses in those welds.
7. The corrosion or pitting, being the reason for fitting the doubling plates, means the corrosion or pitting will still remain there and, if it is on the inside of the original shell plate, will still be increasing. Doubling, therefore, is merely hiding the problem, not repairing it.

 

 

It is, in the author’s opinion, (and for that matter also apparently that of the MCA who will NOT allow doubling plates of any size – particularly on passenger boats – to be fitted except as a ‘get you home’ emergency measure) far better to crop out such thin areas back to metal of an acceptable thickness and renew the plate in way although it is accepted that that is more difficult, time consuming and costly.

 

Full document :

 

Dangers of overplating.docx

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I think @Dignity is right in that it only makes sense if the boat can be purchased at the right price.

 

The same old things always come out in threads on overplating however there a lot of overplated boats on the canals but can anyone;-

 

- recall someone posting on this forum with regrets about buying an overplated boat or having their existing boat overplated?

- cite an example of a boat that was built as a leisure boat that has been replated rather than overplated?

 

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14 hours ago, Dignity said:

Overplating was ment sorry..managed to talk to the surveyor..he favours puddle welding. Base plate and counter all acceptable. Will in all likelyhood be walking away from this as I suspect the broker will not be prepared to lower to an acceptable price for what is basically a project boat.

Be interested to hear others views but It sounds like its mostly pitting which can be pit/ puddle welded. If the boat is epoxied after grit blasting  including the baseplate it maybe OK. Im not sure whats a project in it, if the pits are sorted and the hull is then coated with something to halt corrosion to a very significant amount as epoxy should do  then is there an issue or a project?

 

The price possibly ought to reflect a hull issue but I would expect the vendor to respond along the lines above, its pretty much sorted now.. It would be interesting to have the surveyors opinion on all of this, would they consider the matter sorted, subject to regular inspections from now on? 

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Dignity said:

Overplating was ment sorry..managed to talk to the surveyor..he favours puddle welding. Base plate and counter all acceptable. Will in all likelyhood be walking away from this as I suspect the broker will not be prepared to lower to an acceptable price for what is basically a project boat.

 

Probably, and maybe the broker is hoping in the current market some unsuspecting newbie will come along and take the thing of his hands.  Despite what the surveyor says, once concerns are aroused you have to assume the worst.  No-one can be totally sure what the state of the hull is until it's taken back to bare metal.    

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To get an accurate price for rectification to use as a bargaining tool  ask Debdale Wharf for there price list for grit blast, pit weld,  hot zinc coat and 2 pack epoxy.  Its a list of services per square metre.

They would then give it a 10 year guarantee.

Better than doubling the plating, no weight problem, its all still original and better protected than new. You get a full set of photos as the work progresses too so that a prospective purchaser can see what has been done.

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5 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

I think @Dignity is right in that it only makes sense if the boat can be purchased at the right price.

 

The same old things always come out in threads on overplating however there a lot of overplated boats on the canals but can anyone;-

 

- recall someone posting on this forum with regrets about buying an overplated boat or having their existing boat overplated?

- cite an example of a boat that was built as a leisure boat that has been replated rather than overplated?

 

Mine's been overplated twice. No regrets at all.

I did discuss with the last yard about cutting the bottom off and replating rather than overplating, and initially they suggested this, then changed their minds, No idea why. Sits a bit lower, but fine after I took all (and I mean all) the ballast out. Goes a bit slower... Weed hatch was one of the rotten bits, so that got replaced anyway.

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3 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Mine's been overplated twice. No regrets at all.

I did discuss with the last yard about cutting the bottom off and replating rather than overplating, and initially they suggested this, then changed their minds, No idea why. Sits a bit lower, but fine after I took all (and I mean all) the ballast out. Goes a bit slower... Weed hatch was one of the rotten bits, so that got replaced anyway.

 

Mine's only been done once and that was 34 years ago. I was recently reassured by an appraisal of it from a renowned boat builder and experienced overplaterer. Funnily enough his observations reflected what the well regarded surveyor found when the boat was purchased six years ago.

 

I don't doubt there is a risk in buying an overplated boat so the price has to be right and knowledge of the whys and wherefores of why and how it was done is necessary, unless its a giveaway.

 

Comments on here don't reflect the balance of risk. I'm getting to the point where I'll soon have had sufficient value from buying what is a superb boat at a price where most boats are barely afloat. So for my next 20-25 years of boating I'll be in credit. If it sells for a fiver after that I'll consider it a good deal.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 09/09/2021 at 20:27, Dignity said:

Overplating was ment sorry..managed to talk to the surveyor..he favours puddle welding. Base plate and counter all acceptable. Will in all likelyhood be walking away from this as I suspect the broker will not be prepared to lower to an acceptable price for what is basically a project boat.

Save yourself a lot of potential issues and cost and walk away.

Also overplating side plates raises the centre of gravity of the boat and reduces stability.

You will be able to find a boat in better condition.

Edited by yabasayo
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