Gas fix

[nicknorman]

11 minutes ago, MrBoater2021 said:

 Pretty sound and genuine guy. Probably just trying to make a bit of extra bob. 

Funny how you think that. But if you pause to think clearly, those two sentences are not compatible with each other. Any pretty sound and genuine guy wouldn’t fit old and substandard parts to a gas system. Anybody doing so “just trying to make a bit of extra bob” is a crook.

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Funny how you think that. But if you pause to think clearly, those two sentences are not compatible with each other. Any pretty sound and genuine guy wouldn’t fit old and substandard parts to a gas system. Anybody doing so “just trying to make a bit of extra bob” is a crook.

 

Pretty much what I thought too but that would have sounded very negative coming from me. 

 

I'm no longer registered to do gas work on boats but that Jubilee clip holding the flex onto a plain stub of copper tube looks non-compliant to me, let alone fitting second hand, date-expired hose and fittings. This bod may be "established as a good and trustworthy gas fitter" but it is hard to see why, given what we see in the photos.

[MrBoater2021]

57 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Funny how you think that. But if you pause to think clearly, those two sentences are not compatible with each other. Any pretty sound and genuine guy wouldn’t fit old and substandard parts to a gas system. Anybody doing so “just trying to make a bit of extra bob” is a crook.

I’m just going to forgive and forget. Praise Jesus! New regulator, hose and clips ordered. Washing up liquid and water at the ready.  I don’t want the negativity in my brain. Thank god for temporary camping gas. 

[Quattrodave]

Reference the leaking bull nose, it's also possible that it's the seat on the gas bottle that's damaged, perhaps previous person had some dirt on the seal and wound it really tight... I had one a while back I couldn't get to seal, swapped to my second bottle & it sealed first time.  I took the leaky one back and the supplier swapped it no questions...

[system 4-50]

I get the feeling that some of the information supplied by the OP must be incorrect.

[MtB]

10 hours ago, MrBoater2021 said:

I’m just going to forgive and forget. Praise Jesus! New regulator, hose and clips ordered. Washing up liquid and water at the ready.  I don’t want the negativity in my brain. Thank god for temporary camping gas. 

 

Bear in mind to do it properly the hose should be connected using a Fulham nozzle, not just push over a plain bit of 5/16" copper tube. One of these:

 

And crimped on using the proper double ear "O" clip, like this:

[MrBoater2021]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Bear in mind to do it properly the hose should be connected using a Fulham nozzle, not just push over a plain bit of 5/16" copper tube. One of these:

 

And crimped on using the proper double ear "O" clip, like this:

Yes the Fulham hoses are already there. Can’t I use the clips provided with the hose I ordered? Or do I have to use those clamps? 
 

 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, MrBoater2021 said:

Yes the Fulham hoses are already there. Can’t I use the clips provided with the hose I ordered? Or do I have to use those clamps? 

 

I think it depends what set of regulations you want it to comply with. You have to decide this, then you can look up those regs and see what they say.

 

BSS is by and large the slackest and least fussy of the three sets (BSS, RCD and GSIUR), and is probably fine with worm drive clips. But I don't know for sure. Read them! 

[MrBoater2021]

New regulator, flex pipe and clips fitted. There was another leak at the compression joint and I had to use PTFE tape around the copper olive to get a tight seal. Checked with washing up liquid and water and now no leaks. Will check every day now and make sure to isolate the bottle at night and when I leave the boat. 

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, MrBoater2021 said:

New regulator, flex pipe and clips fitted. There was another leak at the compression joint and I had to use PTFE tape around the copper olive to get a tight seal. Checked with washing up liquid and water and now no leaks. Will check every day now and make sure to isolate the bottle at night and when I leave the boat. 

I would turn the bottle a bit to take that pressure off the hose where it is tight on the locker side.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MrBoater2021 said:

Checked with washing up liquid and water and now no leaks.

 

 

Yet ...........................

 

I'm sure you know (or will do now) that washing up liquid contains Ammonia, Chlorine and salt which attack not only the steel / copper / brass fittings but can also degrade the rubber.

 

There have been a number of discussions previoulsy - washing up liquid is not recommended and only 'approved' leak detection fluid should be used.

 

Here is what the Gas Technical Support Portal says :

 

 

 

Checking for leaks, what do I use.

When checking for leaks on gas equipment there are a several ways of doing this but there are only 2 easy ways to do this and there is one very important thing to note about which fluid to use.

Firstly DO NOT use Washing Up Liquid or non approved leak detection sprays as these will damage the brass and stainless steel parts used in gas systems.

It is really important that you use the correct approved leak detection fluid and DO NOT use soapy water or non approved leak sprays as these will lead to significant damage and even failure of the brass or stainless steel components being tested.

In the washing up liquid the Ammonia they put in for example will lead to stress cracks appearing which will seep into all parts of the valve and lead to brass parts failing catastrophically and simply put valves will leak in some way or form. Chlorine in the washing up liquid will cause the same damage to stainless steel parts.

Don't assume all leak detection fluids are the same as it is known in the industry that some leak fluids have significance ammonia and chlorine in them which has caused brass parts to completely crack and shatter even before LPG under pressure was put in the gas system.

 

(Yes - they sell Detection fluid)

 

[nicknorman]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Yet ...........................

 

I'm sure you know (or will do now) that washing up liquid contains Ammonia, Chlorine and salt which attack not only the steel / copper / brass fittings but can also degrade the rubber.

 

There have been a number of discussions previoulsy - washing up liquid is not recommended and only 'approved' leak detection fluid should be used.

 

Here is what the Gas Technical Support Portal says :

 

 

 

Checking for leaks, what do I use.

When checking for leaks on gas equipment there are a several ways of doing this but there are only 2 easy ways to do this and there is one very important thing to note about which fluid to use.

Firstly DO NOT use Washing Up Liquid or non approved leak detection sprays as these will damage the brass and stainless steel parts used in gas systems.

It is really important that you use the correct approved leak detection fluid and DO NOT use soapy water or non approved leak sprays as these will lead to significant damage and even failure of the brass or stainless steel components being tested.

In the washing up liquid the Ammonia they put in for example will lead to stress cracks appearing which will seep into all parts of the valve and lead to brass parts failing catastrophically and simply put valves will leak in some way or form. Chlorine in the washing up liquid will cause the same damage to stainless steel parts.

Don't assume all leak detection fluids are the same as it is known in the industry that some leak fluids have significance ammonia and chlorine in them which has caused brass parts to completely crack and shatter even before LPG under pressure was put in the gas system.

 

(Yes - they sell Detection fluid)

 

 

So they say. Is there actually any evidence that it is a problem? Photos? Accident reports? Apart from someone down the pub saying they knew someone who knew someone ... And anyway, if you wash it off straight afterwards I really can't see how it can be a problem.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

So they say. Is there actually any evidence that it is a problem? Photos? Accident reports? Apart from someone down the pub saying they knew someone who knew someone ... And anyway, if you wash it off straight afterwards I really can't see how it can be a problem.

 

 

Well us gas bods are pretty heavily warned off using anything other than LDF approved for gas use. Conversely I was reading the manual for a gas-fired Rayburn made in 1970 (approx), and that specifically instructs the installer to leak-test using soapy water, so can't have been that big a problem for the first 100 years or so of brass gas fittings. I wonder if it was/is anything to do with the switchover to methane in the mid 70s. 

 

Mind you, the other seriously dangerous thing (apparently) that gas bods have done since the dawn of time is colour the water in their manometers with a drop of food dye. Now BANNED, as the S.G. of the food dye cannot be guaranteed to be exactly 1.00000000000000000000000, so now we have to spend £30 on "approved manometer water dye". 

 

Must be great fun being one of them bods behind a desk thinking up ways in which to make our world 'safer'. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Well us gas bods are pretty heavily warned off using anything other than LDF approved for gas use. Conversely I was reading the manual for a gas-fired Rayburn made in 1970 (approx), and that specifically instructs the installer to leak-test using soapy water, so can't have been that big a problem for the first 100 years or so of brass gas fittings. I wonder if it was/is anything to do with the switchover to methane in the mid 70s. 

 

Mind you, the other seriously dangerous thing (apparently) that gas bods have done since the dawn of time is colour the water in their manometers with a drop of food dye. Now BANNED, as the S.G. of the food dye cannot be guaranteed to be exactly 1.00000000000000000000000, so now we have to spend £30 on "approved manometer water dye". 

 

Must be great fun being one of them bods behind a desk thinking up ways in which to make our world 'safer'. 

 

 

Soapy water made by dissolving soap is probably a lot different to washing up liquid, When did washing up liquid first come onto the market.

[Tracy D'arth]

The big problem occurred when the gas meters began to use corrugated stainless connection tails. Unfortunately the ends of these were not as stainless as they should have been and using washing up liquid often not diluted enough caused corrosion to the extent that they could perforate.  

I discovered many years ago that Palmolive detergent was not as good at bubbling as others for some obscure reason.

 

In view of the minimal risk I would not discourage anyone from doing their own leak testing with washing up detergent but please at very low strengths, a teaspoonful will produce  2 litres of testing fluid.

Wiping or even washing off with clear water is to be encouraged to minimise the risks of damaging the gas fittings and hoses.

[Ronaldo47]

I would think the variation in SG of water caused by the addition of dye would be neglible compared with the variability due to changes in barometric pressure and the inherent accuracy of a simple manometer.  It would be easy enough to check by a practical experiment by first filling the manometer with plain water and then adding dye and seeing by how much the reading changed. I never used to find difficulty in reading a manometer using plain  water anyway.

 

Funny that I have been using washing up liquid (Fairy) to wash the same set of stainless steel cutlery that I have been using every day for more than 40 years with no sign of cracking or other damage.  I guess the problem with meter tails was more likely to do with the electroytic corrosion that you get when dissimilar metals are allowed to come  into contact with each other in an electrolyte like salt water.  A chemist friend did mention that the cheaper brands of washing-up liqud do contain considerable quantities of salt to make them thicker. Dad used to get industrial detergent and that was almost as runny as water.

 

Stainless steel is only stainless when its surface has free access to its surroundings. I learned on a course on corrosion at technical college that if you put a rubber band around a stainless steel rod and immerse it in plain water, corrosion will create a groove under the ring.  A poster on another thread on this forum remarked on the failure of stainless steel pipe in a marine environment for this reason due to the use of close-fitting pipe clamps. 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Ronaldo47
typos

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I would think the variation in SG of water caused by the addition of dye would be neglible compared with the variability due to changes in barometric pressure and the inherent accuracy of a simple manometer.  

Pedant mode - a regulator produces a pressure related to ambient barometric pressure, so variations in atmospheric pressure are not relevant. The absolute output pressure of a regulator will track ambient pressure.

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

 

 

Stainless steel is only stainless when its surface has free access to its surroundings. I learned on a course on corrosion at technical college that if you put a rubber band around a stainless steel rod and immerse it in plain water, corrosion will create a groove under the ring.  A poster on another thread on this forum remarked on the failure of stainless steel pipe in a marine environment for this reason due to the use of close-fitting pipe clamps. 

That is very interesting and relevant to the gas meter tails as the plain ends are of course trapped in brass fittings which if checked for leaks then will retain the liquid in and around the fittings entrance.

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

That is very interesting and relevant to the gas meter tails as the plain ends are of course trapped in brass fittings which if checked for leaks then will retain the liquid in and around the fittings entrance.

 

We had a huge problem offshore with stainless steel cable ties on galvanised cable tray in the sea water splash zones failing due to "crevice-corrosion".

We developed a range of polyester coated stainless steel ties to overcome the problem.

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

We had a huge problem offshore with stainless steel cable ties on galvanised cable tray in the sea water splash zones failing due to "crevice-corrosion".

We developed a range of polyester coated stainless steel ties to overcome the problem.

I have said it before, we had problems with 316 stainless high pressure hydraulic pipes where they were supported  by Staurff corroding through and making pinholes.

[Ronaldo47]

34 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Pedant mode - a regulator produces a pressure related to ambient barometric pressure, so variations in atmospheric pressure are not relevant. The absolute output pressure of a regulator will track ambient pressure.

Thanks for the clarification!  Back in 1976, when DIY gas fitting was allowed, and I put in gas-fired central heating myself, I borrowed an excellent North Thames  Gas-written HNC textbook from the local public library first, but had forgotten how regulators worked. One thing I do remember was it saying that contemporary gas meters were (still) using diaphragms made from the skins of goats that had spent their entire lives above a height in the Himalayas, that was too high for blood-sucking insects, thereby ensuring there would be no minute perforations in the leather that would affect meter accuracy. I guess they must use synthetics these days. 

 

 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Back in 1976, when DIY gas fitting was allowed,

 

Point of Order m'Lud. It is still allowed, provided you are "competent".

 

What you are not allowed to do unless Gas Safe Registered, is charge other people money for doing it. 

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Point of Order m'Lud. It is still allowed, provided you are "competent".

 

What you are not allowed to do unless Gas Safe Registered, is charge other people money for doing it. 

 

The law actually states that no employer's employees or self employed person can do so without being Gas Safe registered.  It doesn't state that the self employed person needs anything to do with gas, so I'm not sure if the liveaboard plasterer is allowed to fettle his own boat or not ...

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Point of Order m'Lud. It is still allowed, provided you are "competent".

 

What you are not allowed to do unless Gas Safe Registered, is charge other people money for doing it. 

 

Define 'competent'.

 

I would wager a court would tend to err on the side of somebody properly trained and registered.

 

As long as somebody understands if they DIY it they may have to work harder to prove their competence in a court when something does go wrong that stance is fine.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by The Happy Nomad

[Ronaldo47]

 In the 1980's, when I was working in Central London and had access to a local library's law books and collection of Statutes, I did notice the reference to "competent", but could find nothing in the Act or Rules that defined what it meant. Nor did I find anything in case law.

 

Judging by the way the central heating had previously been installed in the house we subsequently bought when I married, by North Thames Gas engineers who must have been graduates of the cowboy school of plumbing, I think it would not be difficult to match their level of competence.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Ronaldo47
typos