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On 07/09/2021 at 09:38, Bod said:

How will this effect older boats or those without RCD/RCR paperwork?

 

Bod

 

Any boat commercially built since 1998 must have been built in compliance with the RCD (it was / is law), the fact that someone has 'lost' the RCD paperwork does not mean that the boat is excluded from compliance.

 

Pre-1998 boats are not affected - the RCD is not applied retrospectively.

 

There have been a couple of people posting on this forum saying that Brokers would not take their boats and sell them for them because of the lack of RCD papaerwork, and, since 2017 the RCD is now 'for life' not, as many people think, something that expires after 5 years (getting confused wity DIY boats and the 5 year exemption)

 

I bought a boat in Croatia and as it did not have the RCD paperwork, I was not allowed to "export it" and had to get RCD paerwork from the manufacturer and apply to the Maritime Minister of the Croatian Government for permission to de-register it in Croatia & then bring it into the UK.

 

Extract & translation :

 

 

 

 

Screenshot (578).png

 

 

 

 

Screenshot (580).png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There have been a couple of people posting on this forum saying that Brokers would not take their boats and sell them for them because of the lack of RCD papaerwork

 

And those same people have been unwilling or unable to state which these brokers these are, so some here suspect it is plain scaremongering. 

 

Or I'm thinking perhaps I missed the list of brokers who decline to sell boats with missing RCD paperwork. Could you post it up please, Alan, or anyone?

 

Much obliged. 

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15 hours ago, Rishworth_Bridge said:

We have, as you realise, large roof lights so don't have a large area to play with. My thoughts were to stick with flexible panels but to stop them getting hot by having a double-skinned section of roof and pumping cold (canal) water through it whenever the panels were generating enough to run a pump. As to recesses, you can have what you like - at a price. And how about the fan to circulate air underneath?

Not convinced taking extra measures (water or air cooling) to keep the panels a bit cooler is worth it, even if you could drop the temperature by 20C (pretty unlikely) the power only goes up by 7% -- and a water pump would use up some of this power, fans would use less. Either way you wouldn't gain more than a few percent. Recesses would cause problems with rain, but I might investigate whether the central 1050mm section of the roof can be made flat since this will be mostly covered with (flat) solar panels and the front/rear sliding hatches...

 

Having looked at what you and Peter have done and though about what would fit (and work with short generator running times) my current plan for hot water is to use both coils of a twin-coil 55l calorifier in the generator cooling circuit (should give >2kW heating according to Dave Jesse's measurements, will also have skin tank to absorb the rest) plus a 2kW immersion heater, 4kW total will raise the water temperature by 60C in an hour of running, 9kW generator provides 2kW to immersion and 7kW to charge batteries (140A limit of Quattro 48/10000). The calorifier will be boxed in under the bed, with the box filled with additional insulation to try and keep the water hot for as long as possible.

Edited by IanD
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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Not convinced taking extra measures (water or air cooling) to keep the panels a bit cooler is worth it, even if you could drop the temperature by 20C (pretty unlikely) the power only goes up by 7% -- and a water pump would use up some of this power, fans would use less. Either way you wouldn't gain more than a few percent.

 

Having looked at what you and Peter have done and though about what would fit (and work with short generator running times) my current plan for hot water is to use both coils of a twin-coil 55l calorifier in the generator cooling circuit (should give >2kW heating according to Dave Jesse's measurements, will also have skin tank to absorb the rest) plus a 2kW immersion heater, 4kW total will raise the water temperature by 60C in an hour of running, 9kW generator provides 2kW to immersion and 7kW to charge batteries (140A limit of Quattro 48/10000). The calorifier will be boxed in under the bed, with the box filled with additional insulation to try and keep the water hot for as long as possible.

They used to do panels that had pumped water through them, so you had the electric and hot water as well, they never took of though maybe to expensive?

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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Not convinced taking extra measures (water or air cooling) to keep the panels a bit cooler is worth it, even if you could drop the temperature by 20C (pretty unlikely) the power only goes up by 7% -- and a water pump would use up some of this power, fans would use less. Either way you wouldn't gain more than a few percent.

 

Having looked at what you and Peter have done and though about what would fit (and work with short generator running times) my current plan for hot water is to use both coils of a twin-coil 55l calorifier in the generator cooling circuit (should give >2kW heating according to Dave Jesse's measurements, will also have skin tank to absorb the rest) plus a 2kW immersion heater, 4kW total will raise the water temperature by 60C in an hour of running, 9kW generator provides 2kW to immersion and 7kW to charge batteries (140A limit of Quattro 48/10000). The calorifier will be boxed in under the bed, with the box filled with additional insulation to try and keep the water hot for as long as possible.

Cooling arrangements for flexible panels would be purely for their survival and use would be down to their convenience. Efficiency would be a secondary consideration. I've got an application where their ability to follow the profile of the roof is very important ........ but I'm still not sure I want to trade off their high cost, lower output and questionable longevity. I've got about six months to make up my mind!

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16 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They used to do panels that had pumped water through them, so you had the electric and hot water as well, they never took of though maybe to expensive?

Like these?

 

https://dualsun.com/en/product/hybrid-panel-spring/

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/02/18/dualsun-unveils-375-w-photovoltaic-thermal-panel-with-shingle-tech/

 

Can't find the cost though -- aha!

 

https://www.myshop-solaire.com/panneau-solaire-spring-375w-shingle-black-dual-sun-_r_951_i_3040.html

 

EUR617 each which is £530 compared to £130 for solar panels... 😞

 

(still cheaper than flexi solar panels though, only 4x more expensive)

 

You'd need a big water tank though because the temperature of the water will be relatively low -- OK for your wideboat...

 

15 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Cooling arrangements for flexible panels would be purely for their survival and use would be down to their convenience. Efficiency would be a secondary consideration. I've got an application where their ability to follow the profile of the roof is very important ........ but I'm still not sure I want to trade off their high cost, lower output and questionable longevity. I've got about six months to make up my mind!

7x higher cost per kW than rigid panels plus much shorter life, so running a generator is *much* cheaper...

Edited by IanD
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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Like these?

 

https://dualsun.com/en/product/hybrid-panel-spring/

 

Can't find the cost though...

7x higher cost per kW than rigid panels plus much shorter life, so running a generator is *much* cheaper...

Okay, so I probably have just made up my mind!

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8 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

As for the dual panels – that is really neat. Any experience of them out there?

Maybe not on a narrowboat, because you need a pretty big lower-temperature (second) hot water tank -- calorifiers normally heat up to engine coolant temperature (85C?) and the hot water is then thermostatically mixed with cold (10C?) to get non-scalding domestic hot water, which more than doubles the amount of usable hot water.

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10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Maybe not on a narrowboat, because you need a pretty big lower-temperature (second) hot water tank -- calorifiers normally heat up to engine coolant temperature (85C?) and the hot water is then thermostatically mixed with cold (10C?) to get non-scalding domestic hot water, which more than doubles the amount of usable hot water.

Richard gets plenty of hot water but he does have 4kw of panels 

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Richard gets plenty of hot water but he does have 4kw of panels 

Not on a narrowboat he doesn't, which were the first 5 words in my post... 😉

 

You could certainly get plenty of warm/hot water on a narrowboat -- they claim 600W heat yield on a 375W solar panel -- but need a big second lower-temperature hot-water tank to store it, just like you see on every rooftop in Greece.

Edited by IanD
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6 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Cooling arrangements for flexible panels would be purely for their survival and use would be down to their convenience. Efficiency would be a secondary consideration. I've got an application where their ability to follow the profile of the roof is very important ........ but I'm still not sure I want to trade off their high cost, lower output and questionable longevity. I've got about six months to make up my mind!

My thoughts were entirely aimed at durability. Any increase in efficiency would be a bonus.

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6 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Cooling arrangements for flexible panels would be purely for their survival and use would be down to their convenience. Efficiency would be a secondary consideration. I've got an application where their ability to follow the profile of the roof is very important ........ but I'm still not sure I want to trade off their high cost, lower output and questionable longevity. I've got about six months to make up my mind!

Bear in mind that if you use an immersion heater to boost your water heating it will also boost the energy losses to your Bowman/skin tank. Better to save the immersion heater for when you don't want to run the generator, use the electrical power elsewhere and run the generator a bit longer to get your hot water.

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